If you aren’t going up in the rapture, are you ready to be interrogated?

[Ahwatukee]

I have a question for you...

If, by spending 40 years in John's revelation, you have fully understood it.... what difference is that going to make on your salvation?

By "knowing" the correct(?) sequence of events, and which bowl is which, and what the white horse means, and who "raptures" first, second, or third.....

Does knowing ANY of that change how you are living your life every day, in Jesus? If so, how?

Hello hornetguy,

Because I love God's word and he gave it to us to search it out, even the deeper things of God. By knowing the chronological order of things, I am waiting for and anticipating Christ's imminent return. Where those are not, are expecting to go through God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer and which Christ rescued us from.

 

[Persuaded]

I have a question for you...

If, by spending 40 years in John's revelation, you have fully understood it.... what difference is that going to make on your salvation?

By "knowing" the correct(?) sequence of events, and which bowl is which, and what the white horse means, and who "raptures" first, second, or third.....

Does knowing ANY of that change how you are living your life every day, in Jesus? If so, how?

Jesus warned His desiples that difficult times were comming so they would be spirtually prepared.
They were not prepared when He was arrested and they ran away.
It was only after His resurrection that they overcame their fear.
The very same thing is going to happen if I am right and the Saints go throught the tribulation.
Many who believe in a pre-trib rapture will lose faith, run and hide, and cry why me Lord.
I have faith that God will care for me during that time.
I will suffer, and if necessary, die in such a way as to glorify Him, or he will hide/protect me so I will see Him at His second coming.

It has nothing to do with my salvation, but I do not go through life beliving everything is going to be just great and I am so rightious that I will never have to suffer as those before me or those who are now suffering.
Tribulation builds faith.
Lord help me that my faith grows.

 

[DP]

I haven't lied about anything. That is your assumption. You have continued to avoid my question: who are those riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean following Christ out of heaven?

Answer to your question is so easy! Who are these?

1 Thess 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

Notice those are saints that have already died, not raptured.

 

[Persuaded]

They are tribulation saints. Likely they are the result of the 144,000 witnesses God raises up in the tribulation.

They are part of Israel and like the OT prophets they endure the suffering of the judgment of God albeit with strength of the Spirit to overcome.

No saints are left behind as you suppose. They are converted because of the rapture and their knowledge of the scriptures. They will be prompted to study the scriptures and come to know Christ because of the events surrounding the rapture of the church.

When they are martyred they are joined with the church already in the presence of the Lord. The two witnesses are slain and resurrected right before the eyes of the unbelieving world. Taken up into heaven as a testimony of Gods saving power.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I did not say some are left behind, I said some others have said so.
As for as the 144,000, look at what the Scripture says about them.
They are virgin males and are now with Jesus.
How does that translate into tribulation saints?

 

[DP]

This is another concept that we keep telling you, but you don't listen. When Christ comes to gather the church, he is not returning to the earth, but will be meeting the church in the air and then return to the Father's house. The only time that he will actually return to the earth is after the 7th bowl judgment, which is when he end the age. You have not understood that these are two separate events. By having the church being gathered when Christ returns to end the age, you put them through the entire wrath of God.

My Lord Jesus goes with all His saints to Jerusalem on earth when He gathers His Church, not back up. The Father's House will be then located on the earth where Jerusalem is, which you would know if you had studied all of His Word instead heeding men (Zech.14; Ezekiel 40 thru 47).

Once again, you do NOT understand when the wrath of God is per Paul in 1 Thess.5, that because you get your doctrine from men and not God's Word. There is no way to treat the wrath of 1 Thess.5 as being for the trib timing. Doing what you're doing comes from the pre-trib doctrine of men, which is where you got that doctrine.

 

[garee]

So you are so smart that you know that when God told John to wright "first resurrection" He did not really mean first.

That in fact first really means several.
You do think highly of your self.

I think a different Greek word used means several .First means one.

I think I will take God's clearly stated facts in these verses.
First is first, is first, is first, is first

The promise is in respect to the first resurrection, is in respect to the eternal land typified by the temporal land, Israel here on earth. The promise of the first resurrection begins in Ezekiel.

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. (Zion)

The fulfillment of the prophecy in respect to the first resurrection in Mathew below. .

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Mat 27:50

The first resurrection began when Christ said; “it is finished”. The dead asleep in Christ, the Old testament saints that were in effect in a holding pen awaiting the trial of Christ came out of their graves and entered the new Jerusalem, witnessed by many angels Nothing could hold them any longer the payment in full was made. they dies trusting in Christ finished work just as we do. (no difference other than a matter of time. ) .

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Just as today to be absent of the body we enter the first resurrection as being absent of these bodies of death we are present in our souls with Christ as the beheaded souls under the altar fast asleep waiting for the second and final resurrection when the other dead in Christ ,that are alive reinging with Christ on earth.... in the twinkling of the eye both receive the second and final resurrection on the last day. New incorruptible bodies for all the dead in Christ while the rest (no faith) go up in smoke of God’s judgment never to come to new life, forever more. .

The one work of the second and final resurrection is done simultaneously in the twinkling of the eye. Then the saints (both) will receive their new incorruptible bodies in that one window of opportunity. The last day, the end of time.

 

[notuptome]

I did not say some are left behind, I said some others have said so.
As for as the 144,000, look at what the Scripture says about them.
They are virgin males and are now with Jesus.
How does that translate into tribulation saints?

God is going to save souls during the tribulation period. These will be saints from the tribulation hence the name tribulation saints.

The 144,000 are not with Jesus now. They will be raised up to proclaim the word of God to Israel and the world during the tribulation time.

The tribulation is a Jewish event not a church event. The church now receives the blessing promised to Israel but when the church is gone Israel will see the fulfillment of all she was promised in prophecy. Scripture foretells this as a latter rain.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DP]

The 'tribulation saints' idea is another fabrication of Darby's false pre-trib rapture idea and his theory of Dispensationalism.

When Jesus comes per God's Word, it's to gather all... His Church, not just part of them. This is why the Matt.24 and Mark 13 gathering of the saints covers both the asleep saints in Heaven He brings with Him, and the saints still alive on earth when He comes, which is exactly what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4.

 

[notuptome]

The 'tribulation saints' idea is another fabrication of Darby's false pre-trib rapture idea and his theory of Dispensationalism.

When Jesus comes per God's Word, it's to gather all... His Church, not just part of them. This is why the Matt.24 and Mark 13 gathering of the saints covers both the asleep saints in Heaven He brings with Him, and the saints still alive on earth when He comes, which is exactly what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4.

Too much hate in your heart to receive Gods blessing.

Christ comes to gather His saints both OT and church. Christ will have a harvest of saints during the tribulation. God builds the church according to His will not man's perception of it.

Let go the hate and embrace Christ. Trust the Lord to do right.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DP]

God is going to save souls during the tribulation period. These will be saints from the tribulation hence the name tribulation saints.

The 144,000 are not with Jesus now. They will be raised up to proclaim the word of God to Israel and the world during the tribulation time.

The tribulation is a Jewish event not a church event. The church now receives the blessing promised to Israel but when the church is gone Israel will see the fulfillment of all she was promised in prophecy. Scripture foretells this as a latter rain.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Those ideas are false, were dreamed up by the pre-trib rapture doctors to try and prop up their pre-trib rapture. Darby's Dispensationalism created a good portion of that with attempting to separate God's Israel from Christ's Church.

The 144,000 are made up of more Israelite tribes than Jews, something most pre-trib rapture folks are totally ignorant about. Only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, with 'some' portions of the other tribes made up the group called Jews. The rest of Israel, the majority, God scattered through the nations never to return to the holy land. Many of those of lost Israel make up part of Christ's Church today! And even many Jews have converted to Christ Jesus also today! Darby's false separation thus falls flat!!! Even many of those Christians live... in the state of Israel today!!! The pre-trib doctors are such liars, it's pathetic.

 

[DP]

Too much hate in your heart to receive Gods blessing.

Christ comes to gather His saints both OT and church. Christ will have a harvest of saints during the tribulation. God builds the church according to His will not man's perception of it.

Let go the hate and embrace Christ. Trust the Lord to do right.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You mistake disdain and righteous indignation for hate, when it is love for the brethren that makes me rebuke pre-trib's false doctrines. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen I always say.

 

[hornetguy]

Hello hornetguy,

Because I love God's word and he gave it to us to search it out, even the deeper things of God. By knowing the chronological order of things, I am waiting for and anticipating Christ's imminent return. Where those are not, are expecting to go through God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer and which Christ rescued us from.

I understand wanting to study scripture, but I am thinking that we should be ready for "the end" ALL the time (not saying you are not...)
It seems that sometimes we get so caught up in the "jots and tittles" of scripture we miss the day to day LIVING like Jesus.

I suppose because I'm simple minded, I just don't worry about eschatology... whatever is going to happen, will happen... whether I understand it, or have it figured out "right" or not. I'd rather live life today, trying to become more like Jesus, than worry about "what ifs"

I don't belittle anyone for study, however..... I just fail to see the point in arguing over who has it "right".... something else to cause discord among believers.

 

[DP]

I understand wanting to study scripture, but I am thinking that we should be ready for "the end" ALL the time (not saying you are not...)
It seems that sometimes we get so caught up in the "jots and tittles" of scripture we miss the day to day LIVING like Jesus.

I suppose because I'm simple minded, I just don't worry about eschatology... whatever is going to happen, will happen... whether I understand it, or have it figured out "right" or not. I'd rather live life today, trying to become more like Jesus, than worry about "what ifs"

I don't belittle anyone for study, however..... I just fail to see the point in arguing over who has it "right".... something else to cause discord among believers.

Understandable position, but why do you think our Lord Jesus gave us the signs to occur leading all the way up to His return if He didn't think it important for us to know and understand? Like He said in the OT, He tells of things before they come to pass (Isaiah 42:9).

 

[notuptome]

You mistake disdain and righteous indignation for hate, when it is love for the brethren that makes me rebuke pre-trib's false doctrines. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen I always say.

I know hate when I see it and that is why I am concerned. Righteous indignation is nothing like hate nor does it belittle and demean those with whom it disagrees.

Jesus said not to fear those who can destroy the body and do no more but fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in eternal condemnation. You don't have enough heat to concern me.

Study John 3:16 before you endeavor to teach Revelation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DP]

I know hate when I see it and that is why I am concerned. Righteous indignation is nothing like hate nor does it belittle and demean those with whom it disagrees.

Jesus said not to fear those who can destroy the body and do no more but fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in eternal condemnation. You don't have enough heat to concern me.

Study John 3:16 before you endeavor to teach Revelation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You only know what you've been wrongly taught to make up in your own mind. Like preachers that continually preach about money, what do you think is most on their minds? MONEY! But with you, it's hate!

 

[hornetguy]

I know hate when I see it and that is why I am concerned.

You only know what you've been wrongly taught to make up in your own mind. Like preachers that continually preach about money, what do you think is most on their minds? MONEY! But with you, it's hate!

This is what I'm talking about. Two different beliefs about end times, both sides convinced they have it "right".. It's so important to be "right" about something that has NO impact on your salvation, that, if they were in the same room, they'd be up in each others' face, eyes bulging, spittle flying, arguing about, well..... nothing.

Being "right" about end times won't affect your salvation... hating your brother, and causing division in Christ's church, WILL.

 

[notuptome]

Those ideas are false, were dreamed up by the pre-trib rapture doctors to try and prop up their pre-trib rapture. Darby's Dispensationalism created a good portion of that with attempting to separate God's Israel from Christ's Church.

The 144,000 are made up of more Israelite tribes than Jews, something most pre-trib rapture folks are totally ignorant about. Only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, with 'some' portions of the other tribes made up the group called Jews. The rest of Israel, the majority, God scattered through the nations never to return to the holy land. Many of those of lost Israel make up part of Christ's Church today! And even many Jews have converted to Christ Jesus also today! Darby's false separation thus falls flat!!! Even many of those Christians live... in the state of Israel today!!! The pre-trib doctors are such liars, it's pathetic.

You are splitting hairs. For most purpose Israel and Jews can be seen as a single group. God never intended to divide them and God will remain faithful to both parties. The one thing you cannot escape is that the church is not Israel.

You would do well to view the bible with the guidance of dispensations even though you do not like the term. God has ministered to mankind and Israel with covenants. God has always been and always will be faithful but man has proven over and over again his inability to hold up his end of the deal.

God never lies. Study John 3:16

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[NayborBear]

Jesus warned His desiples that difficult times were comming so they would be spirtually prepared.
They were not prepared when He was arrested and they ran away.
It was only after His resurrection that they overcame their fear.
The very same thing is going to happen if I am right and the Saints go throught the tribulation.
Many who believe in a pre-trib rapture will lose faith, run and hide, and cry why me Lord.
I have faith that God will care for me during that time.
I will suffer, and if necessary, die in such a way as to glorify Him, or he will hide/protect me so I will see Him at His second coming.

It has nothing to do with my salvation, but I do not go through life beliving everything is going to be just great and I am so rightious that I will never have to suffer as those before me or those who are now suffering.
Tribulation builds faith.
Lord help me that my faith grows.

This is precisely, (er pretty close, anyways), what I am getting from reading all these arguments for a "pre-trib" rapture. These people don't have enough faith in the Father and God, of Jesus Christ, to a belief that they would be able to stand in, or during, or endure through Gods' wrath, or tribulation! Which, as I've stated before, began, right after the garden of Eden incident. In other words? They are just plain skeered. and, have already been deluded. In "their eyes", There is NO SEPARATION, between Father, and Son! None! In their house, Jesus has already come into their Jerusalem, claiming to BE God! (which is, a lie!). Their saving grace is that, they will have ample opportunity/ies, in the age to come, to repent, and be healed.

Yet, I fully understand, the why of, this seemingly endless upon endless obsessiveness concerning rapture topics, and the why, we war so hard against them/it ( spirit of anti-christ). It's because of the "turnover-rate" (if you will), in this/these venues.

Not to fear, though, cuz after this particular thread becomes too many pages to follow/keep up with, and/or, tire of casting pearls before swine? And/Or, cease from allowing them to deplete our oil supply? There'll be someone anew to strike it up again. And, we shall do this, all over..........AGAIN!! And, of this? You (spirit of anti-christ), can be assured!!

Until that day, when the Father hands over the reigns of this earth to the Lamb that was slain?

Selah

 

[Ahwatukee]

I understand wanting to study scripture, but I am thinking that we should be ready for "the end" ALL the time (not saying you are not...) It seems that sometimes we get so caught up in the "jots and tittles" of scripture we miss the day to day LIVING like Jesus.

The more I study scripture, the more ready I am. Jesus told believer's that no one would know when he would return. The church is the bride, and like the bride, she must always be ready no matter when the bridegroom arrives. Regarding this, Jesus said the following:


"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’ ”

That being said, those who believe that the Lord's arrival is imminent know that he could arrive at any time. Those who are believing that the Lord arrives to gather the church when he returns to the earth to end the age cannot believe in an imminent return. The reason for this that is, there are many signs leading up to his return to end the age, namely all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. If I believed as you and DP and others do, I could say right this moment, that the Lord could not possibly return at any moment and that because the entire wrath of God has to take place before the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. This fact is indisputable!

Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins and thereby satisfied God's wrath and have been reconciled. Scripture also states that Jesus rescued us from the coming wrath. Those who believe that the church must go through God's wrath before Jesus can return to gather us, are not believing that Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve and that because they are expecting to go through it. On the contrary, by being so caught up in the "Jots and tittles" I am more alert to the times we are living in and I am all the more zealous for good works and to glorify God.

In these last days Satan and his angels are attacking every facet of God's word. The fact that those who are looking for the imminent return of Christ are under attack, tells me that this teaching that the church must go through the wrath of God first, is a teaching of Satan. Did you know that during Paul's time there were those who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place? Regarding them Paul said, that it was godless chatter, that it would spread like gangrene, that they had wandered away from the truth and that they destroyed the faith of some. Therefore, anyone today who believes that the resurrection has already taken place, they fall under the same condemnation as those during Paul's time. How much more for those who are teaching that the believer must go through God's wrath before Jesus can come to gather us. These people do not understand the severity of the coming wrath and they do not understand that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age are two completely different events.

 

[DP]

You are splitting hairs. For most purpose Israel and Jews can be seen as a single group. God never intended to divide them and God will remain faithful to both parties. The one thing you cannot escape is that the church is not Israel.

Not splitting hairs. You fail at OT study about the matter, so you have no clue why the specific tribes in Rev.7 are metioned while some of them are left out. Pre-trib doctrine bunches them altogether as if Christ's Church were made up of only Gentiles, which is a Darby way of thinking.

You would do well to view the bible with the guidance of dispensations even though you do not like the term. God has ministered to mankind and Israel with covenants. God has always been and always will be faithful but man has proven over and over again his inability to hold up his end of the deal.

No thanks, I don't need men's doctrines (like Darby's Dispensationalism he created to prop up his pre-trib rapture beliefs) to tell me what the events are in God's Holy Writ, The Holy Spirit does that just fine for me.