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Based on that logic, it's like saying someone who speaks English reads simple phrases like 'after the tribulation' thus has no support for aligning with what our Lord Jesus Himself says:
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
How would the Christian who seeks to follow what Jesus commanded us and taught be in good standing with Him by allowing just any interpretation of simple direct statements like that which He made? Should we also lie to the unbelievers that Jesus is not the only Way of Salvation too?
At some point in the Christian walk, one must determine whether to make a stand in Christ or not.
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
How would the Christian who seeks to follow what Jesus commanded us and taught be in good standing with Him by allowing just any interpretation of simple direct statements like that which He made? Should we also lie to the unbelievers that Jesus is not the only Way of Salvation too?
At some point in the Christian walk, one must determine whether to make a stand in Christ or not.
That being mostly so, because we have OT history to back that up, it's still important to understand the difference about the wrath during the trib vs. God's cup of wrath upon the wicked on the last day.
We are... appointed to suffer Satan's wrath for the tribulation. That's why we were shown in the Books of Daniel and in Revelation about the coming Antichrist making war upon the saints, and his given power over us for 42 months. That is not God's wrath, it's the devil's. God's wrath is what will end the trib and is not appointed upon us.
We are... appointed to suffer Satan's wrath for the tribulation. That's why we were shown in the Books of Daniel and in Revelation about the coming Antichrist making war upon the saints, and his given power over us for 42 months. That is not God's wrath, it's the devil's. God's wrath is what will end the trib and is not appointed upon us.
(clipped from post #79): "That being said, those who believe that the Lord's arrival is imminent know that he could arrive at any time. Those who are believing that the Lord arrives to gather the church when he returns to the earth to end the age cannot believe in an imminent return. The reason for this that is, there are many signs leading up to his return to end the age, namely all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. If I believed as you and DP and others do, I could say right this moment, that the Lord could not possibly return at any moment and that because the entire wrath of God has to take place before the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. This fact is indisputable!"
Of course, The Fathers' wrath, and satan's wrath against the perseverance of the saints could never occur simultaneously/at the same time,.....COULD IT?!?!
Of course, The Fathers' wrath, and satan's wrath against the perseverance of the saints could never occur simultaneously/at the same time,.....COULD IT?!?!
I think you've missed my point entirely.
End times is NOT an issue to "take a stand" on.... it's not a salvation issue. So, if you "take a stand", insisting that everyone else believes as you do, you are causing an UNNECESSARY division in Christ's church.
I think that you and I believe much the same about end times.... except for the importance placed on being "right" about it.
End times is NOT an issue to "take a stand" on.... it's not a salvation issue. So, if you "take a stand", insisting that everyone else believes as you do, you are causing an UNNECESSARY division in Christ's church.
I think that you and I believe much the same about end times.... except for the importance placed on being "right" about it.
Rev14:1 ¶ And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
The Lamb standing on Mt Sion places this scene after the tribulation not during.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
The Lamb standing on Mt Sion places this scene after the tribulation not during.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I don't think, Hornetguy, that it's such a matter as to being right, as much as it's a matter of having/accepting, as blind faith this rapture doctrine bull crap. what this does do, is give cause for one to stray away from pressing on, to the high calling of God, in Christ. Why?.......cuz you have succeeded, and are going to fly away! So, there is no needs in progressing, and much easier in causing new believers to follow this same path.
Meanwhile......Political correctness, abortions, murders, the selling of unborn baby parts, remains unchecked!
"All I gotta do is believe, that I'm gonna fly away from all this sin and iniquity! Don't gotta do nothing about binding things here on earth, now, cuz Jesus, is gonna take care of 'em, after I'm gone!!"
The fact these things I mentioned are spreading like wildfire, is testament from the book of Jude.
It's sad that you will willingly and knowingly cause divisions among believers, over doctrine that doesn't affect salvation, simply to prove your "correctness".....
Jesus did not cause divisions among his followers, and he didn't teach us to do that, either.
You can be "right", but still be wrong. Read again, Paul's discussion on our freedom in Christ, and how we are to make decisions on how we are to interact with our brothers.
Jesus did not cause divisions among his followers, and he didn't teach us to do that, either.
You can be "right", but still be wrong. Read again, Paul's discussion on our freedom in Christ, and how we are to make decisions on how we are to interact with our brothers.
Except He wasn't talking about our spiritual brothers. He was describing the sacrifices we should be willing to make to follow Him. Many families would disown anyone that became a Christian, and Jesus was saying that if necessary, we would have to go against our family to follow Him... He never said that we should argue amongst ourselves over non-essential doctrines to cause divisions... this should be a no-brainer, but apparently, it's not.
It's sad.
It's sad.
P
So when I see some one teaching untruth as truth, I should just be quite so as not to cause division.
May I suggest that you read John 6:53-71
It the truth offends you, it is on you, not on the one teaching the truth.
If we do as you suggest, we would only teach salvation.
But the doctrine of salvation will cause more division than any other doctrine.
May I suggest that you read John 6:53-71
It the truth offends you, it is on you, not on the one teaching the truth.
If we do as you suggest, we would only teach salvation.
But the doctrine of salvation will cause more division than any other doctrine.
You wouldn't be doing as "I" suggest... you would be doing as Paul instructed.
Paul understood our status as believers allows us to do many things, such as eating meat offered to idols. He also understood that some believers did not understand that "truth". They had not yet arrived at that point in their walk with Christ... in other words, they didn't have all the truth... YET.
Paul didn't tell us to righteously stand up and beat them over the head with the truth, he said to take into account their weakness, or lack of knowledge... don't cause them to fall away.
Like I said, you can be right, and still be wrong.
The truth does not offend me.... beating someone up with the truth out of pride, instead of loving them, and helping guide them to the truth, however long that takes, DOES offend me.
Paul understood our status as believers allows us to do many things, such as eating meat offered to idols. He also understood that some believers did not understand that "truth". They had not yet arrived at that point in their walk with Christ... in other words, they didn't have all the truth... YET.
Paul didn't tell us to righteously stand up and beat them over the head with the truth, he said to take into account their weakness, or lack of knowledge... don't cause them to fall away.
Like I said, you can be right, and still be wrong.
The truth does not offend me.... beating someone up with the truth out of pride, instead of loving them, and helping guide them to the truth, however long that takes, DOES offend me.
And you apparently aren't understanding my point. Making a stand based on the simplicity of God's written Word instead of supporting a doctrine of men is paramount to guard against men's deceptions.
God's Word is not some New Age mystical philosophy where there can be as many different interpretations as there are people's opinions. When Jesus said He will send His angels to gather His elect after the tribulation that's what He meant. Can't just apply totally different meanings to what He said there. There's only ONE interpretation per that, not many, and one is either aligned with what He said there or they are not.
God's Word is not some New Age mystical philosophy where there can be as many different interpretations as there are people's opinions. When Jesus said He will send His angels to gather His elect after the tribulation that's what He meant. Can't just apply totally different meanings to what He said there. There's only ONE interpretation per that, not many, and one is either aligned with what He said there or they are not.
You ought to study more; Apostle Paul used the term 'elect' 3 times in his Epistles to Christ's Church.
Titus 1:1
1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
KJV
And per Paul, the early foundation of Christ's Church was made up of Christ's Apostles to whom Jesus was speaking to in Matt.24 about the events of the end of this world. The pre-trib doctors lie against that Eph.2 proof though, which is who you instead listen to and heed.
Titus 1:1
1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
KJV
And per Paul, the early foundation of Christ's Church was made up of Christ's Apostles to whom Jesus was speaking to in Matt.24 about the events of the end of this world. The pre-trib doctors lie against that Eph.2 proof though, which is who you instead listen to and heed.
The Pre-Tribulational Harpazo was mentioned far before Darby and can be found in the scriptures. In fact, it wasn't until after studying the scriptures and having the Holy Spirit show me that the Church would be caught up before the Great Tribulation or Time of Jacob's Trouble that I heard of a man named Darby. The concept of the dispensation of the Church is not something made up, but found directly in God's word.
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