Forty years (or so) of feminism. Has it changed the way woman view themselves? Has...
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This illustrates a problem with taking the concept of 'equality' beyond common decency and good sense. Let's draft both mom and dad.
'Equality' is the excuse for the falsely so called 'gay marriage' perversion. It's not that gay, and it's certainly not marriage. Homosexuals commit suicide a lot more often than the general population and lesbian couples experience much more domestic violence. That's not very 'gay' in the old sense of the word. 'Equality' is also the excuse for the federal government pressuring states that insist that a man whose taken hormones and had his private parts operated on to look different be allowed to use the women's bathroom, and that any peeping tom who just calls himself a woman can use the women's bathroom.
'Equality' is the excuse for the falsely so called 'gay marriage' perversion. It's not that gay, and it's certainly not marriage. Homosexuals commit suicide a lot more often than the general population and lesbian couples experience much more domestic violence. That's not very 'gay' in the old sense of the word. 'Equality' is also the excuse for the federal government pressuring states that insist that a man whose taken hormones and had his private parts operated on to look different be allowed to use the women's bathroom, and that any peeping tom who just calls himself a woman can use the women's bathroom.
Maybe to some extent. Fortunately, Indonesia was Islamified partly through Sufis. Maybe that's why many of them are more laid back about it.
But it is still a big symbol to Muslims to build a mosque at a place they have conquered. People sent joke emails around the office when I worked in Indonesia right after 9/11. One of them had a bunch of 'bin laudin' pictures of celebrities with fake beards, like "Madonna bin Laudin" and 'Lassie bin Laudin.' Another email showed the New York skyline with a bunch of mosques around the ground zero area.
But it is still a big symbol to Muslims to build a mosque at a place they have conquered. People sent joke emails around the office when I worked in Indonesia right after 9/11. One of them had a bunch of 'bin laudin' pictures of celebrities with fake beards, like "Madonna bin Laudin" and 'Lassie bin Laudin.' Another email showed the New York skyline with a bunch of mosques around the ground zero area.
I would be very careful about generalizing. For centuries Sufis have been persecuted by other Muslims for their views. This just like the persecution suffered by Anabaptists because of the bigotry shown by other professing Christians. The USA, for example, has a long history of persecuting Anabaptists for their anti-war stances.
This is probably the very reason the populace did not support the ERA. It didn't pass, and they still want to make women eligible for the draft.
How foolish do we have to get before there are some practical restrictions on our definition of 'equality.' Women being drafted, claiming that two men or two women can get 'married', transgender bathrooms, not profiling Arab-looking people with 'jihad' on their t-shirts and targeting them for special inspection in the TSA line?
How foolish do we have to get before there are some practical restrictions on our definition of 'equality.' Women being drafted, claiming that two men or two women can get 'married', transgender bathrooms, not profiling Arab-looking people with 'jihad' on their t-shirts and targeting them for special inspection in the TSA line?
Feminism has impacted on our lives some say for better, others say for worse.
I am a poverty class person and live in an urban ghetto. A large percentage of families here are headed by women because they make more money than men do. This especially in families or domestic partnerships where it is a Black or Hispanic man with a White woman.
I go shopping once a week and take the city bus to go to the grocers. Invariably, whenever I get on a bus and a racially mixed couple enter it, it is almost always the woman who pays the bus fair for both. Just today, a 45 year old (or so) couple comprised of a White woman and a Black man boarded the bus and she paid the fair. Often when I go to the grocer's for my weekly shopping, again, the woman (especially if she is White) pays for the weekly grocery bill for a couple or for the entire family. Last week, I went to a softball double header. A Hispanic couple with a little girl boarded the bus on the same stop as I did. The lady paid the fair. On my way home, this strikingly good looking young couple (a beautiful blonde with a guy who looked a lot like Prince) boarded the bus and she paid the fair. You don't see this quite as often in the suburbs where feminism has enabled couples to double their income with men and women having access to high paid jobs. Unfortunately, feminism has not helped double the income in ghetto families. But maybe some day it will.
I am a poverty class person and live in an urban ghetto. A large percentage of families here are headed by women because they make more money than men do. This especially in families or domestic partnerships where it is a Black or Hispanic man with a White woman.
I go shopping once a week and take the city bus to go to the grocers. Invariably, whenever I get on a bus and a racially mixed couple enter it, it is almost always the woman who pays the bus fair for both. Just today, a 45 year old (or so) couple comprised of a White woman and a Black man boarded the bus and she paid the fair. Often when I go to the grocer's for my weekly shopping, again, the woman (especially if she is White) pays for the weekly grocery bill for a couple or for the entire family. Last week, I went to a softball double header. A Hispanic couple with a little girl boarded the bus on the same stop as I did. The lady paid the fair. On my way home, this strikingly good looking young couple (a beautiful blonde with a guy who looked a lot like Prince) boarded the bus and she paid the fair. You don't see this quite as often in the suburbs where feminism has enabled couples to double their income with men and women having access to high paid jobs. Unfortunately, feminism has not helped double the income in ghetto families. But maybe some day it will.
If the couple are married or even live together and have a 'common purse', then her paying the fair doesn't mean anything. When my wife and I go out, I might pay out of my wallet, but if I'm low on cash, my wife might pay. It doesn't matter. We have a joint bank account. It's all the same money.
Maybe some of these men make their wives gettem' a sammich, and make them take the money out of the purse to pay for stuff, too. It could be feminism, or it could be the opposite, or her paying could mean nothing at all.
Maybe some of these men make their wives gettem' a sammich, and make them take the money out of the purse to pay for stuff, too. It could be feminism, or it could be the opposite, or her paying could mean nothing at all.
The point made by many is, that if men are to be subjected to institutional enslavement via the draft, then women should be subjected to it as well. People cite the Constitution's equal protection clause as justification for that.
Times have changed. Would you like it if your son gets drafted, spends four years in the military, and then finds himself unemployed with so future job prospects while your neighbor's daughter goes to college, gets three summers of internship experience, gets a diploma, and lands a highly paid professional job? Is this fair to your son or to anyone else in that situation?
Examples like this and others is why people say women should also be subjected to the draft if it is reinstated.
Fewer men have enrolled in college recently. But fewer college graduates get decent jobs. One theory I encountered is that young men may be picking up on this and making more rational economic decisions. Economic decisions may be behind young men being less likely to marry. Divorce law and the family court system is more friendly to women than to men in a lot of jurisdictions.
This generation (called "millennials") is one where a very large percentage of men under 40 still live with their parents (usually just their mothers). I have read that this is as high as 40%. Still others live dependently with girl friends or other relatives so that it is a very real possibility that the majority of men in this generation are financially dependent. By contrast, the majority of women that age are said to be home owners and live independently.
This suggest to me that the feminist movement and ideology has worked to make women less dependent and to be heads of households. But it has not liberated men in the same manner as early feminists said it would.
This suggest to me that the feminist movement and ideology has worked to make women less dependent and to be heads of households. But it has not liberated men in the same manner as early feminists said it would.
I live in an inner-city too. A large percentage of the families here are headed by women too for reasons that I just don't have time or space to tackle in a single post. I'll just deal with one particular scenario.
A lot of the men (not all) are unwilling to take low-paying, legitimate work. The wages here are low in comparison to other cities and states making the poverty level high. As a result, a lot of men who have been largely influenced by the hip-hop culture don't even prepare themselves for the workforce because they already know that the wages are considerably low - poverty level. As a result, a lot of those men are more likely to commit crimes like robbery than to to get prepared for and work a low-paying, but legitimate job.
When it comes to romantic relationships, those men generally cohabitate, date several women at one time and have multiple children that they are unable and unwilling to support.
The women in those relationships, generally work one of those low-paying, poverty level, jobs that I mentioned. Because the wages are so low, they have to be on some government subsidy in order to survive like food stamps or public housing. Of course, the children generally live with the mothers. The mothers are usually the primary parent and are the ones who take responsibility and care of the kids.
The man and those relationships, generally come and go as they please dividing their time between their multiple sex partners and a life of criminal activity. When they show up, they expect the woman to SUBMIT to them, support them and give them sex. When the woman tries to set some relational boundaries or end the relationship, those men usually become violent. Therefore, domestic violence against women is an epidemic in the inner city where I live. There are just examples from 2016.
11 dead in Jefferson County from domestic violence 'cancer' in 2016 | AL.com
A mother was killed and four of her children were wounded by the boyfriend/father on May 11, 2016
'I can't believe my daddy shot me' : Witnesses recount shooting rampage that killed mom, wounded 4 kids | AL.com
Please make no mistake. That is just the tip of the Iceberg. There are countless other examples. Not to mention, all the women who get beaten but don't die.
'I didn't want to hurt her, just the baby:' Hoover capital murder case sent to grand jury | AL.com
I'm including this example because a lot of professing Christian men commit domestic violence against their wives.
Birmingham minister sentenced to life in wife's shooting death | AL.com
Therefore, when I hear someone ranting about how feminism has empowered women at the expense of men, and it's destroying American society, I'm Baffled because that's not what's going on in the inner city, (Bible Belt) where I live. The men and women are largely influenced by African culture which is patriarchal and Hip-Hop which is misogynistic.
Muslim immigration into American cities won't help the situation. Islamic values don't help anyone. It's an evil, Antichrist religion. However, with or without immigration, a large number of the men where where I live already rule, dominate and commit violence against woman. They don't need Muslim men to teach them how to do that because they have already mastered that.
Proverbs35, I've spent much of my adult life either in Asia or not in the mainland United States, so I certainly don't have my hand on the pulse of the US inner city. The situation you have described doesn't really sound like patriarchy to me. Is there an African patriarchal culture where the man doesn't support any family, isn't the head of a home, and has a lot of sex partners he isn't married to?
Maybe I'm drawing on stereotypes to some extent, but I also get the impression that in inner-city situations where the father of a child is going around producing lots of children with lots of babby momas, some of these baby momas already have children by other men. That's not really patriarchy either. The mother raises the children and is the head of the home. That's matriarchy. And again, this may be partly fueled by stereotypes, but I get the impression that a lot of inner city mothers in situations like this want to be independent and don't want to submit to a man. And of course, there are individual differences all over the place. If you put a man who commits crime instead of works together with a woman who doesn't want to submit to a man, and both have or have had multiple sex partners, and if they have some kind of relationship, with jealousy and each trying to defend their own 'honor' in a sense (not being dissed, etc.), then that can be a recipe for violence. It's not a good example of patriarchy though.
I suspect in the middle of the 20th century African American households tended to be more patriarchical, back when it was the norm for couples to be married and for the father to be in the home.
These problems aren't all caused by feminism, of course. But feminist thought the way it is expressed in our culture also has combined with the idea that women are free to have sex with who they want, to seek sexual pleasure, that women don't need men to raise children, to earn a living or to have a family, and that a wife doesn't have to submit to her husband. All of these ideas also contribute to some of the problems you described in the inner city. Inner city Christian women who are committed to sexual purity, to marrying only a godly Christian man who will work, and to submit to their husbands after marriage are not going to be in the situation you describe if they live out their convictions.
Maybe I'm drawing on stereotypes to some extent, but I also get the impression that in inner-city situations where the father of a child is going around producing lots of children with lots of babby momas, some of these baby momas already have children by other men. That's not really patriarchy either. The mother raises the children and is the head of the home. That's matriarchy. And again, this may be partly fueled by stereotypes, but I get the impression that a lot of inner city mothers in situations like this want to be independent and don't want to submit to a man. And of course, there are individual differences all over the place. If you put a man who commits crime instead of works together with a woman who doesn't want to submit to a man, and both have or have had multiple sex partners, and if they have some kind of relationship, with jealousy and each trying to defend their own 'honor' in a sense (not being dissed, etc.), then that can be a recipe for violence. It's not a good example of patriarchy though.
I suspect in the middle of the 20th century African American households tended to be more patriarchical, back when it was the norm for couples to be married and for the father to be in the home.
These problems aren't all caused by feminism, of course. But feminist thought the way it is expressed in our culture also has combined with the idea that women are free to have sex with who they want, to seek sexual pleasure, that women don't need men to raise children, to earn a living or to have a family, and that a wife doesn't have to submit to her husband. All of these ideas also contribute to some of the problems you described in the inner city. Inner city Christian women who are committed to sexual purity, to marrying only a godly Christian man who will work, and to submit to their husbands after marriage are not going to be in the situation you describe if they live out their convictions.
K
Or maybe its because these are the last days and the satanic religion is spreading like wildfire. No woman in her right mind would want to live under the way Muslim men treat woman. Its purely demonic. And the Muslim women in America have freedom they would never ever have in their home countries. Although many of them are being murdered for it in the US. The way Muslim women are treated in the majority of these countries is the equality of a goat.
You raised many good issues in reply to Proverbs35 comment.
There is a general stereotype that Asians are economically successful in the USA and that this, somehow, shows that there is no discrimination against minorities here. That may or may not be true for many Asians. One thing that is for sure is the Hmongs from Southeast Asia are the exception to this rule. Back in their homeland men made more money and ruled the household. In the USA, however, it is their women who make more money and generally rule the household. We have had extensive discussions on this matter here in the Twin Cities which has the largest Hmong population in the USA. Local public tv has studied this more extensively than has the general news media.
As with other minorities, women make more money. Because of this they are the ones who pay the bus fares, own the homes, and pay for commodities used to feed the families. While many in society blame feminism for this problem, I think it is more correct to say that society's response to feminism is the reason why this exists. Speaking as a Hispanic and as a community activist, I have attended several conferences or neighborhood meetings where we attempted to discuss this issue and find solutions. While we had many good exchanges of ideas we did not ever come up with any meaningful solutions. For example, I have two colleges degrees. Despite that, like many others, I never found any use for those degrees and survived on minimum wage jobs. I was hardly alone. One thing that is for certain is that I came across others who were college educated but who were confined to low pay jobs and that each and every person who was in the same boat as me were all men. I have never known any college educated woman who worked at a minimum wage job or who was forced to live with her mother because she could not afford to pay rent. If I was the only one who endured this then I would say it was I who was the problem. But, as I wrote before, for "millennials" the near majority of men suffer from this or from similar problems in that they are stuck in low paid jobs and must live with their moms. They are called boomerangs because even though they left home to pursue career ambitions, those ambitions were denied and they had to go back home to survive. Note that this goes across the board - Black, White, and all other male demographics fall in this category. There are many links which you can readily find on google search to find more information on this subject.
Are we to blame feminists? I say no. The Bible tells us "a man can have nothing unless God gives it to him". For years I prayed that a good job would open up for me. None ever came. Both of my parents died heart broken because they saw how hard I worked to get those degrees (please note that I worked my way through college, often held two jobs to pay for tuition, and I am partly learning disabled so that I had to study twice as hard as any one else to get good grades. I graduated near the top of my class despite all these difficulties) and never got my prayers answered. All that hard work, sacrifice, self denial, and ambition. And what did it avail me? Nothing. I am now retired due to illness and survive on Social Security and food stamps. Am I to blame feminists for any of this? Heck no as none of them ever told God to deny my prayer requests.
It's kinda funny how so many of CC contributors like to blame feminists, liberals, Democrats, Muslims, and atheists for all the problems we see in this society. Yet the Bible tells us God creates all evil {Isaiah 45:7}. Therefore, some of us should take a good long look and think over very carefully before we attempt to assign blame for any of society's problems. On that basis, I, for one, just cannot blame feminists for the problems we are discussing on this topic. Responsibility goes to the top. God rules over all. This is as good a time as any for him to provide the solution to those problems.
I absolutely agree with what you said about some blaming feminist (among others) for all the problems we see in this society. Feminism is just their latest scapegoat.
I'm not defending feminism. A lot of sin has been and continues to be committed in the name of feminism. However, a lot of sin and disobedience has been and continues to be committed under patriarchy/misogyny. There are countless examples of that in the news - worldwide and local. I'm not defending feminism, but I am pointing out the pot calling the kettle black tactic of using feminism as the latest and greatest scapegoat, while completely ignoring the many sins and disobedience committed in the name of patriarchy/misogyny.
I'm not defending feminism. A lot of sin has been and continues to be committed in the name of feminism. However, a lot of sin and disobedience has been and continues to be committed under patriarchy/misogyny. There are countless examples of that in the news - worldwide and local. I'm not defending feminism, but I am pointing out the pot calling the kettle black tactic of using feminism as the latest and greatest scapegoat, while completely ignoring the many sins and disobedience committed in the name of patriarchy/misogyny.
I can't speak for the white American culture at large, but I will say that people in and around my age group, plus/minus 10 to 15 years, which is the group I consider more or less my peer group and the people I have had the most contact with most of my life, feel that the African American culture is in many ways more of a matriarchal one then patriarchal. At least until the men get into their mid 30's or so. I want to to stress this is a generalization that we made from what we observed living in NYC, with what contact we had with people in the work place, church, friends, social events, bars, clubs, etc. So I want to be clear I am speaking for a very narrow crowd as far as what I personally heard from them. But I would not be surprised if a lot of white males and females in that age group in NYC had the same view.
I dated a black woman for a year when I lived in NYC and around the 9th or 10th month we spoke about possibly getting married, and to this day I can recall one of her remarks so well. She said that she knew I was responsible and made a decent living and that I was a Christian (she had a good income to, was a rep for a company that sold vaccines) and that she wanted to marry me as much as I did her, but she said that she never wanted to end up like those black woman you see walking their babies in their strollers with no father around. She said you could look at them and see the hurt in their eyes and the look of having lost hope in their walk. That's either a quote, or close to it, all these years later.
I dated a black woman for a year when I lived in NYC and around the 9th or 10th month we spoke about possibly getting married, and to this day I can recall one of her remarks so well. She said that she knew I was responsible and made a decent living and that I was a Christian (she had a good income to, was a rep for a company that sold vaccines) and that she wanted to marry me as much as I did her, but she said that she never wanted to end up like those black woman you see walking their babies in their strollers with no father around. She said you could look at them and see the hurt in their eyes and the look of having lost hope in their walk. That's either a quote, or close to it, all these years later.
You are wrongly treating patriarchy and misogyny as if it is the same thing. If a society is patriarchical, that doesn't mean that the men hate their women. If an individual is patriarchical, that doesn't mean that he or she hates women.
Only in the modified Marxist philosophy of modern feminism is 'patriarchy' associated so closely with misogyny. It basically takes the Marxist philosophy that the privileged sector of society is oppressing the poor proletariat and that the workers need to unite and cast off the chains of their oppressors through revolution. In the modern feminist philosophy, the proletariat are replaced by women, and 'the patriarchy' oppresses women. Of course, it is not a huge leap to go from that to hating men.
In patriarchal societies, men lead in civil leadership and the family. There are plenty of patriarchal aspects to the Law that God gave Israel in the Bible. The creation is patriarchal because the Father rules all.
Only in the modified Marxist philosophy of modern feminism is 'patriarchy' associated so closely with misogyny. It basically takes the Marxist philosophy that the privileged sector of society is oppressing the poor proletariat and that the workers need to unite and cast off the chains of their oppressors through revolution. In the modern feminist philosophy, the proletariat are replaced by women, and 'the patriarchy' oppresses women. Of course, it is not a huge leap to go from that to hating men.
In patriarchal societies, men lead in civil leadership and the family. There are plenty of patriarchal aspects to the Law that God gave Israel in the Bible. The creation is patriarchal because the Father rules all.