Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[Word_Swordsman]

Putting those together is interesting.

Mat 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Does that make casting out devils as evil as prophesying in Jesus' name, or doing wonderful works in Jesus' name? If so, Paul apparently remained chiefest of sinners, for he regularly did those things, and so did many other Bible heroes of the faith. I would not believe that is the proper use of that verse.

The idea of it was that many false prophets and false christs would come imitating those things among the true believers doing the same things.

So what of

Who arranged it in scriptures to make the first and second part ceased, but the third is not yet vanished? Would someone suppose that since knowledge remains and is commanded through Peter to be added to our faith, that alone means prophesy and tongues ceased since they were listed there before knowledge?

Well, yes, many do interpret it that way to their own loss.

It's called "doctrines of men", a phenomenon similar to the way Pharisees added hundreds of oral/written regulations to the Law, calling their regulations laws.

Doing that is a symptom of covering up failure to obey the Lord by doing what the apostles taught us. It's "uncomfortable for most to embrace Christian works that even today capture the attention of an otherwise ignorant world of people oblivious to the word of God. All of it was needed during Jesus' ministry, during the apostolic ministries, and ever since by every Christian taking the word of God seriously and as literally as possible.

Without such works of righteousness the world will continue to plunge into darkness, not able to detect any difference between Christians and any other religious human.

 

[VCO]

§ 176. Respect for flag: No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.

(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.

http://www.jeffhead.com/liberty/flagdistress.htm


Actually our nation is in the greatest distress it has ever been.

I wonder if all patriots should fly the flag upside down.

Why have the marines not arrested obama for treason?


​

NEVER, that is disrespect for to ALL of us who have SERVED. IF an enemy had taken over a US Fort, it would be the appropriate way to warn the relief column. As a Liberalist Political Satement, is a INSULT to all VETERANS. On the Street, I would rip the flag out of the hands of who ever was carrying it, and PROTECT THE FLAG WITH MY LIFE. THAT IS HOW SERIOUS A REAL VETERAN TAKES DEFACING THE FLAG. TURNING IT UPSIDE DOWN IS A FORM OF DEFACING THE FLAG, AND IT IS EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE TO EVERY REAL VETERAN. You don't like the politics You VOTE AGAINST IT, you don't INSULT the Veterans by turning OUR FLAG UPSIDE DOWN.

The RED STRIPES represent the BLOOD THAT WAS SHED in defense of the FLAG.
The WHITE STRIPES stand for the Bandages used to tend to the WOUNDED.
The NUMBER OF STRIPES, represent the original thirteen Colonies.
The BLUE FIELD represents vigilance, perseverance, and justice,
The WHITE STARS represent the total number of US STATES.

LEARN WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE LEARNED IN GRADE SCHOOL. IT IS AN OFFENSE TO EVERY VETERAN, ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO DIED IN BATTLE TO TURN OUR FLAG UPSIDE DOWN. THAT FLAG IS TO CARRIED IN HONOR, UPRIGHT INTO BATTLE WITH THE BLUE FIELD FOREWORD, RESPECTING THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN. THAT BLUE FIELD NEVER TURNS IN BATTLE, NEITHER TO THE REAR, NOR UPSIDE DOWN, IN RESPECT FOR THOSE WHO FELL IN BATTLE.

I VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE WITH YOU. WHERE IS YOUR SENSE OF PATRIOTISM. EVEN JESUS SET THE PROPER CHRISTIAN RESPONSE, WHEN HE CRIED FOR JERUSALEM AND PRAYED FOR HER.

HE DID NOT SAY, INSULT HER AND TURN HER FLAG UPSIDE DOWN. REPENT.



Romans 13:1-8 (NKJV)
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

I am shocked that you Popeye, have been influenced by Liberalist Politics.


[video=youtube;shU_eiyVRvk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shU_eiyVRvk[/video]

 

[garee]

I still haven't seen an answer to a question on this topic posted many threads ago when I first came here.

The original-plus-one apostles practiced, and some taught many other people about the gifts of the Spirit. Many of those people lived past the deaths of those 12. They were taught and expected to practice as the Spirit directs.



Why is it said some or all of the gifts ceased with the deaths of the 12 (cessationism), leaving perhaps thousands of disciples holding an empty bag of ceased tricks? If they were taught about things to do that were only intended for those apostles, then why would God let them write letters to those disciples explaining the use of them, and why would God lead them to teach a soon-to-die practice?

The Holy Spirit would surely have been negligent to inspire those men to teach those things without warning them of their loss of validity? Shouldn't at least one of them have written that those things were for the original apostles only, not to leave millions of Christians to have to debate the matter?

So where do the scriptures declare the sign gifts were only for the 12, or would cease when they died?

All believers as a kingdom of priests are considered "sent ones" giving us the meaning of the word "apostle'. Adding other meanings changes the intended use for the word. In that way we are lovingly commanded not to add to a word. It is there where the father of lies can get his foot in the door and turn the direction of the gospel away from Christ, toward that seen men .

What we as apostles are sent with is the prophecy, the existing whole word of God .Now that we do not have it in part. It is sealed up till the end of time. Tongues (new prophecy) that was still being added up until the finish of the last Chapter Revelation has ceased. No more new prophecy, as it is written is to be expected.

The incident at Pentecost was two fold one as a sign to the unbeliever and two prophecy to those God worked in to both will and do His good pleasure by interpreting the language so that they could hear God put their faith in the unseen and not men as that seen..

Not one of gifts have not ceased.

Its that signs as gifts have never been the case. It is the point it seem everyone is purposely missing.

Signs are for the rebellious, those who do no have faith. The sign at Pentecost as that seen confirms there unbelief. No faith. The scripture never prompts the believer to seek after a sign.Signs are not gifts. The two words are like oil and water they never mix.

Prophecy as that not seen, in respect to the spiritual words of God are for those who do have faith.

Note ....(Purple in parentheses) my addition to try and help make a point.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, "not to them that believe", but "to them that believe not": but prophesying (the invisible working of the word of God, the quickening of the soul) serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.( the believer the Christian)

3000 souls heard the word of God to the salvation of their souls . The unbelieving Jew by the sign as to who it was directed towards .They conferred of having no faith.They like the the disciples in John 6 walked away in unbelief.

The prophecy concerning the sign in rspect to those who did walk by sight was this people The ones that would not hearken unto the word of God. This people in that verse does not include those who did believe God to the salvation of their soul.. They did not enter the rest we or the 3000 did receive from the word.

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people."To whom he said" , This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.Isa 28:12

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,And the sign or the wonder "come to pass", whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou "shalt not" hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.Deu 13:1

I would stay away from signs. Again there is no prompt to look for any sign, they speak to the rebellious that refuses to walk by faith, the unseen authority, as to the glory of God. .

 

[wincam]

I still haven't seen an answer to a question on this topic posted many threads ago when I first came here.

The original-plus-one apostles practiced, and some taught many other people about the gifts of the Spirit. Many of those people lived past the deaths of those 12. They were taught and expected to practice as the Spirit directs.

Why is it said some or all of the gifts ceased with the deaths of the 12 (cessationism), leaving perhaps thousands of disciples holding an empty bag of ceased tricks? If they were taught about things to do that were only intended for those apostles, then why would God let them write letters to those disciples explaining the use of them, and why would God lead them to teach a soon-to-die practice?

The Holy Spirit would surely have been negligent to inspire those men to teach those things without warning them of their loss of validity? Shouldn't at least one of them have written that those things were for the original apostles only, not to leave millions of Christians to have to debate the matter?

So where do the scriptures declare the sign gifts were only for the 12, or would cease when they died?

Scripture does say so[Jn.14:17] but only to some it seems - the whole of chapters 14,15 and 16 say only to the Apostles and early disciples - wincam

 

[garee]

Scripture does say so[Jn.14:17] but only to some it seems - the whole of chapters 14,15 and 16 say only to the Apostles and early disciples - wincam

If you are called by God as part of the great commission to all the Priests in the kingdom of Priest(believers) to bring the gospel into the world you are considered a apostle. Changing the meaning of "sent one" (apostle) by adding another changes the gospel.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

If you are called by God as part of the great commission to all the Priests in the kingdom of Priest(believers) to bring the gospel into the world you are considered a apostle. Changing the meaning of "sent one" (apostle) by adding another changes the gospel.

That isn't supported by 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

[SUP]29 [/SUP] Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
[SUP]31 [/SUP] But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

According to that only some Christians are called to be apostles. Some are called to be teachers. Some helpers, etc.


None of those are worth a hoot to someone exercising them without love. Love makes each gift alive.

How anyone dare declare one or more of those to be ceased is at best curious to me. How can we admit teachers, but omit another gift in the church?

Probably a person willing to omit one of those has witnessed an abuse of that gift, according to his/her perception of how that gift ought to be exercised properly. I wouldn't let any supposed hypocrite cause me to lose my joy over any gift from God.

 

[presidente]

1 cor 13:8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Prophecies fail, tongues cease and knowledge vanish away.

The Romans had a recipe for cement, but that vanished during the dark ages. Knowledge comes and goes. Paul writes of his state when the perfect comes. He will know fully even as he is fully known.

Signs have always been for the Jews.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

If this is your only support for the idea that signs are exclusively for the Jews, that is some truly pitiful eisegesis. That verse tells what the Jews wanted and what the Greeks wanted. There were Jews who required a sign from Jesus. The Old Testament taught that if a prophet prophesied something in the name of the LORD that did not come to pass, He was a false prophet. No doubt, these Jews wanted a predictive prophecy that they could test. Jesus gave them only one sign, the sign of the prophet Jonah, related to His death and resurrection. In the book of John, Jesus gave them the sign that if they destroyed 'this temple' in three days, He would raise it up as a sign, another prediction of His own resurrection.

I suspect you are interpreting 'required' in some unique way. Be that as it may, the verse says nothing about signs not being for Gentiles.

When God stretched forth His hand over Egypt, the Egyptians knew that He was the LORD. The signs He accomplished in Egypt, some of them done as miracles through Moses, taught a lesson to both Hebrew and Gentile. Namaan was a Gentile and God used a prophet to miraculously heal him.

In Acts, we see Paul declaring a crippled man healed, a man from a group of pagan Gentiles. The pagans wanted to sacrifice to him and Barnabas. Paul cast an evil spirit out of a Gentile girl. In Acts 15, Paul and Barnabas recounted the signs they had performed among the Gentiles.

It is a strange method of interpreting scripture you have indeed. I know I have pointed out these scriptures to you in past discussions. I really don't get why, when shown from scripture that you are wrong, that you still stick to these false beliefs. You use a verse that doesn't really support your viewpoint (a verse which does not say that signs are only for the Jews), and there are scriptures that contradict what you are saying throughout the Bible. When shown that you are wrong, why don't you change your stance?

Will you believe in Jesus without tongues, wonders and miracles?

You seem to be promoting a false dichotomy, as if faith in Jesus were contrary to believing what the rest of the New Testament teaches about spiritual gifts.

If I never saw anyone speak in tongues, never saw a miracle or sign or wonder, I would still believe in Jesus. My question is, will you believe and obey the word of God?

Regarding speaking in tongues and interpreting, the Bible commands, "Let all things be done unto edifying" and "forbid not to speak with tongues." Regarding prophesying, Paul commands "Covet to prophesy" and "Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge". Paul also wrote, "Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyins. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good."

Paul commanded believers to earnestly desire spiritual gifts and encouraged believers to be zealous for spiritual gifts that edified the body.

Will you still worship Christ without rock and roll music?

I can sing the Lord's praises to the sound of guitars and drums, organs and pianos, other instruments or acapella. I grew up singing old hymns. As long as the songs are glorifying to God, I consider it to be good. There are some songs that promote some shaky theology, not just new choruses, but also some of the 'country style' hymns, that I don't care for.

Would you attend church if the only worship was in preaching the word of God?

What is the simplest and most distilled essence of worship that you can describe?

I'm going to go literal with this one. 'Worship' is generally used to translate 'proskuneo' and it's Hebrew equivalent. Usually, it refers to prostration, bowing down with one's head to the ground or floor. When John 'worshipped' the angel, he was bowing down. When David said he would 'worship' toward the LORD's temple, that was the direction toward which he bowed when he prayed. The Samaritan woman worshipped toward the temple on Mt. Gerizim and wanted to debate Jesus over the subject.

You ask if I would attend church if the only worship was in preaching the word?

My question back to you is, would you want to actually obey the Bible? Usually 'preach' in the KJV is used to translate one of three Greek words that are used repeatedly in contexts of evangelistic proclamation of the Gospel. There are a few exceptions in the KJV. Acts 20:7 throws a monkey-wrench in the works, translating a word for 'teach' or 'discussion' as 'preach.'

I don't believe a church necessarily has to have much evangelistic preaching in it's meetings. The apostles preached outside of church meetings, in the synagogues, and the marketplaces. They proclaimed Christ to those who did not believe in him yes. Believers do need to be reminded of the basics of the Gospel again. I Corinthians 15 opens up telling the reasons why this is the case, and reminding believers of the Gospel, so it is a good example of this. Romans and Galatians expound the Gospel to believers.

The Bible does not teach that when we got to church, we must sing three songs, collect an offering, hear a 45 minute sermon preached by one pastor, sing three songs again, and go home. That's Protestant tradition, which adapted Roman Catholic tradition.

The New Testament gives us one long passage that tells us what to do in church in I Corinthians. Chapter 11 tells us how not to have the Lord's Supper, but chapter 14 gives instructions on what to do in church meetings. There are a few other verses here and there in the Bible about what to do in church. Chapter 14 gives instructions on how the members of the assembly can use their gifts in an edifying way to edify one another. There is no mention of one pastor. Elsewhere, the apostles appointed a plurality of elders in a single church to pastor, rather than one pastor. There is not even mention of the elders of the church in the passage on what to do in church.

This is an interesting verse in the passage:
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

 

[notuptome]

The Romans had a recipe for cement, but that vanished during the dark ages. Knowledge comes and goes. Paul writes of his state when the perfect comes. He will know fully even as he is fully known.

Well here you are starting off on a bad foot. You know that is not the knowledge God is speaking of in 1 Cor 13:8

If this is your only support for the idea that signs are exclusively for the Jews, that is some truly pitiful eisegesis. That verse tells what the Jews wanted and what the Greeks wanted. There were Jews who required a sign from Jesus. The Old Testament taught that if a prophet prophesied something in the name of the LORD that did not come to pass, He was a false prophet. No doubt, these Jews wanted a predictive prophecy that they could test. Jesus gave them only one sign, the sign of the prophet Jonah, related to His death and resurrection. In the book of John, Jesus gave them the sign that if they destroyed 'this temple' in three days, He would raise it up as a sign, another prediction of His own resurrection.

I suspect you are interpreting 'required' in some unique way. Be that as it may, the verse says nothing about signs not being for Gentiles.

When God stretched forth His hand over Egypt, the Egyptians knew that He was the LORD. The signs He accomplished in Egypt, some of them done as miracles through Moses, taught a lesson to both Hebrew and Gentile. Namaan was a Gentile and God used a prophet to miraculously heal him.

In Acts, we see Paul declaring a crippled man healed, a man from a group of pagan Gentiles. The pagans wanted to sacrifice to him and Barnabas. Paul cast an evil spirit out of a Gentile girl. In Acts 15, Paul and Barnabas recounted the signs they had performed among the Gentiles.

It is a strange method of interpreting scripture you have indeed. I know I have pointed out these scriptures to you in past discussions. I really don't get why, when shown from scripture that you are wrong, that you still stick to these false beliefs. You use a verse that doesn't really support your viewpoint (a verse which does not say that signs are only for the Jews), and there are scriptures that contradict what you are saying throughout the Bible. When shown that you are wrong, why don't you change your stance?

Your perspective is reversed from the truth. When God used Moses to bring Israel out of Egypt He did the miracles for Israel not for Egypt. Israel would not have followed Moses if they did not see God moving him.

You seem to be promoting a false dichotomy, as if faith in Jesus were contrary to believing what the rest of the New Testament teaches about spiritual gifts.

If I never saw anyone speak in tongues, never saw a miracle or sign or wonder, I would still believe in Jesus. My question is, will you believe and obey the word of God?

Regarding speaking in tongues and interpreting, the Bible commands, "Let all things be done unto edifying" and "forbid not to speak with tongues." Regarding prophesying, Paul commands "Covet to prophesy" and "Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge". Paul also wrote, "Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyins. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good."

Paul commanded believers to earnestly desire spiritual gifts and encouraged believers to be zealous for spiritual gifts that edified the body.

Yes however the tongues in the modern NT new age church are not the tongues of which Paul is speaking. Remember only three specific sign gifts ended not all the gifts.

I can sing the Lord's praises to the sound of guitars and drums, organs and pianos, other instruments or acapella. I grew up singing old hymns. As long as the songs are glorifying to God, I consider it to be good. There are some songs that promote some shaky theology, not just new choruses, but also some of the 'country style' hymns, that I don't care for.

Very ecumenical of you but I'm glad you are able to make allowance in this matter.

I'm going to go literal with this one. 'Worship' is generally used to translate 'proskuneo' and it's Hebrew equivalent. Usually, it refers to prostration, bowing down with one's head to the ground or floor. When John 'worshipped' the angel, he was bowing down. When David said he would 'worship' toward the LORD's temple, that was the direction toward which he bowed when he prayed. The Samaritan woman worshipped toward the temple on Mt. Gerizim and wanted to debate Jesus over the subject.

You ask if I would attend church if the only worship was in preaching the word?

My question back to you is, would you want to actually obey the Bible? Usually 'preach' in the KJV is used to translate one of three Greek words that are used repeatedly in contexts of evangelistic proclamation of the Gospel. There are a few exceptions in the KJV. Acts 20:7 throws a monkey-wrench in the works, translating a word for 'teach' or 'discussion' as 'preach.'

I don't believe a church necessarily has to have much evangelistic preaching in it's meetings. The apostles preached outside of church meetings, in the synagogues, and the marketplaces. They proclaimed Christ to those who did not believe in him yes. Believers do need to be reminded of the basics of the Gospel again. I Corinthians 15 opens up telling the reasons why this is the case, and reminding believers of the Gospel, so it is a good example of this. Romans and Galatians expound the Gospel to believers.

The Bible does not teach that when we got to church, we must sing three songs, collect an offering, hear a 45 minute sermon preached by one pastor, sing three songs again, and go home. That's Protestant tradition, which adapted Roman Catholic tradition.

The New Testament gives us one long passage that tells us what to do in church in I Corinthians. Chapter 11 tells us how not to have the Lord's Supper, but chapter 14 gives instructions on what to do in church meetings. There are a few other verses here and there in the Bible about what to do in church. Chapter 14 gives instructions on how the members of the assembly can use their gifts in an edifying way to edify one another. There is no mention of one pastor. Elsewhere, the apostles appointed a plurality of elders in a single church to pastor, rather than one pastor. There is not even mention of the elders of the church in the passage on what to do in church.

This is an interesting verse in the passage:
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Our commission from Christ is to be witnesses and to make disciples.

Mat 28:16 ¶ Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Ac 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Church is not for entertainment but to edify and equip believers to witness for and of Christ that others will be saved through the declaration of the word of God. Not signs and wonders but by the declaration of Gods word. The Holy Spirit ministers in men's hearts through the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

Well here you are starting off on a bad foot. You know that is not the knowledge God is speaking of in 1 Cor 13:8

I consider 'all mysteries and all knowledge' to include both mundane matters and deep spiritual truths.

Your perspective is reversed from the truth. When God used Moses to bring Israel out of Egypt He did the miracles for Israel not for Egypt. Israel would not have followed Moses if they did not see God moving him.

Exodus 7:9
And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

Notice that Egyptians are Gentiles. God did those signs for Israel, too.

I notice that creating false dichotomies is a constant theme in your posts.

Yes however the tongues in the modern NT new age church are not the tongues of which Paul is speaking. Remember only three specific sign gifts ended not all the gifts.

There is no reason to think that the gift of tongues will be done away with until Jesus comes back.
I Corinthians 1:7 says,
"So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".

You should interpret I Corinthians 13 consistent with the rest of the book, not just eiseget in your own private interpretations.0

Very ecumenical of you but I'm glad you are able to make allowance in this matter.

You seem to be operating under some very narrow stereotypes about those who believe in the Biblical gifts of the Spirit. Your posts have a lot of straw men in them. There are plenty of Pentecostal churches that sing old hymns. There are even Baptist churches that use Church of God redback hymnals.

Our commission from Christ is to be witnesses and to make disciples.

Mat 28:16 ¶ Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Ac 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Church is not for entertainment but to edify and equip believers to witness for and of Christ that others will be saved through the declaration of the word of God. Not signs and wonders but by the declaration of Gods word. The Holy Spirit ministers in men's hearts through the word of God.

I've never argued that the church is for entertainment. (Lots of straw men in your post.s) My question is how are believers edified and equipped? Ephesians 4 shows us that the different parts of the body are to build each other up in love. I Corinthians 12 teaches the same thing.

I don't see the great commission as the highest overriding objective. God has an 'eternal purpose' that is being fulfilled through the church. Evangelism helps accomplish this objective by growing the body of Christ. God is preparing the bride for His Son.

Evangelism is part of the fulfillment of this larger objective. Edifying other members of the body of Christ so that the body grows to the 'full measure of the stature of Christ' also helps fulfill this objective. Evangelism is not the only important thing in our faith. Pastoral ministry is also important. So are all the other gifts. 'Church' is not just about hearing sermons, either. There are many gifts. Even within 'speaking' type ministries, there are those who prophesy and share revelations, those who teach, those who exhort, and those who evangelize the world.

Biblical truth takes precedence over protestant tradition, even evangelical tradition.

 

[wincam]

If you are called by God as part of the great commission to all the Priests in the kingdom of Priest(believers) to bring the gospel into the world you are considered a apostle. Changing the meaning of "sent one" (apostle) by adding another changes the gospel.

strange is it not that Priests and Bishops and Popes no longer have or desire the 'gifts' the apparent results or fruits so far appear to be chaos, confusion, divergence, differences, contradictions and division - wincam

 

[presidente]

strange is it not that Priests and Bishops and Popes no longer have or desire the 'gifts' the apparent results or fruits so far appear to be chaos, confusion, divergence, differences, contradictions and division - wincam

Is that what Roman Catholics say about the Reformation?

The real question 'is what has God revealed?' The Corinthians had spiritual gifts intheir midst, but they still had that list of problems you mentioned. They didn't have those problems because they had spiritual gifts, but in spite of them. Many of their problems had carnality at the root.

 

[notuptome]

I consider 'all mysteries and all knowledge' to include both mundane matters and deep spiritual truths.

Yet that has nothing to do with the context of 1 Cor 13:8.

Exodus 7:9
And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

Notice that Egyptians are Gentiles. God did those signs for Israel, too.

I notice that creating false dichotomies is a constant theme in your posts.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

God did them for Israel and the Egyptians should have already known Who God is so they remained without excuse.

There is no reason to think that the gift of tongues will be done away with until Jesus comes back.
I Corinthians 1:7 says,
"So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".

You should interpret I Corinthians 13 consistent with the rest of the book, not just eiseget in your own private interpretations.0

Interpret in the light of Isaiah and Joel. Gifts prophesied to and for Israel not Gentiles. Former and latter rain to which Peter spoke at Pentecost. You remember but you just don't like to retain it.

You seem to be operating under some very narrow stereotypes about those who believe in the Biblical gifts of the Spirit. Your posts have a lot of straw men in them. There are plenty of Pentecostal churches that sing old hymns. There are even Baptist churches that use Church of God redback hymnals.

Only three have ended the rest of the gifts continue. Just more red herrings from you.

I've never argued that the church is for entertainment. (Lots of straw men in your post.s) My question is how are believers edified and equipped? Ephesians 4 shows us that the different parts of the body are to build each other up in love. I Corinthians 12 teaches the same thing.

Just a symptom of churches that are not close to the Lord.

I don't see the great commission as the highest overriding objective. God has an 'eternal purpose' that is being fulfilled through the church. Evangelism helps accomplish this objective by growing the body of Christ. God is preparing the bride for His Son.

Evangelism is part of the fulfillment of this larger objective. Edifying other members of the body of Christ so that the body grows to the 'full measure of the stature of Christ' also helps fulfill this objective. Evangelism is not the only important thing in our faith. Pastoral ministry is also important. So are all the other gifts. 'Church' is not just about hearing sermons, either. There are many gifts. Even within 'speaking' type ministries, there are those who prophesy and share revelations, those who teach, those who exhort, and those who evangelize the world.

Biblical truth takes precedence over protestant tradition, even evangelical tradition.

Not surprising to me to hear you say that. The only reason you are here after you become saved is to witness what the Lord has done and point others to Christ. Apart from that you could be immediately taken to heaven but God chooses to leave you here to witness for Christ. To teach others to grow to maturity in the knowledge of the Lord through word of God. It is not about religion but about the Risen Lord Jesus Christ the only hope for a lost and dying world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

Yet that has nothing to do with the context of 1 Cor 13:8.

All knowledge includes all knowledge, so it does have to do with the context of the chapter.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

God did them for Israel and the Egyptians should have already known Who God is so they remained without excuse.

How is this a response to what I wrote? It is a great verse and all, but I showed that the Egyptians would know that Yahweh is Yahweh when he stretched forth His hand on Egypt. We both know He did so with a number of signs and wonders.

Sure, the Egyptians should have known God from creation, but that is true of Jews also. God still chose to do signs.

I disproved your theory with scripture, and then you dodged the issue.

Interpret in the light of Isaiah and Joel. Gifts prophesied to and for Israel not Gentiles. Former and latter rain to which Peter spoke at Pentecost. You remember but you just don't like to retain it.

Gentile believers are partakers of the blessings of Israel, grafted into their olive tree. You should know that to, but I do not know if you like to retain it.

Only three have ended the rest of the gifts continue. Just more red herrings from you.

The spiriutal gifts continue at least until Christ returns. The rock music comment was your red herring (a red herring straw man, how's that for a mental picture?). You brought it up. Don't blame me for responding.

Just a symptom of churches that are not close to the Lord.
Not surprising to me to hear you say that. The only reason you are here after you become saved is to witness what the Lord has done and point others to Christ. Apart from that you could be immediately taken to heaven but God chooses to leave you here to witness for Christ. To teach others to grow to maturity in the knowledge of the Lord through word of God. It is not about religion but about the Risen Lord Jesus Christ the only hope for a lost and dying world.

This is sad. You didn't dig into the Bible to look up the scriptures I refer to. Why condemn if you haven't studied something out? Are you content to get your doctrine from a narrow scope of sermons without searching more deeply into the scriptures?

Evangelism is important, and plays an important role in God's plan. I am not taking away from that. Christ's words in what has been called 'The Great Commission' are also very important. But it is not true that believers only exist for evangelism. The Bible does not teach that.

Consider Ephesians 3
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Part of God's plan is to show His wisdom through the church to principalities and powers.

Paul could also see that believers living holy lives was important to God. It is not the case that God only cares about evangelism, getting more souls saved, and not about the state of the believers who are already believers, and how they lived their lives. Paul spent a lot of ink to convince believers to live holy, for example, encouraging Corinthians and Thessalonians not to fornicate. Believers living holy, being in unity, and growing and maturing is also important to God.

I Corinthians 11
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Ephesians 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

How can we read this and not conclude that the church growing and maturing in unity and love is not important?

 

[VCO]

I too am a vet retired of 20 years and the flag upside down in the navy is a Distress sign. you may not agree with it but some think our nation is under that very same distress and some even think that the Judgement of God is on it too.

That being said Burning the flag to me is far more disrespectful and it is done more than the sign of distress Upside down cross yes but not the flag but I will ask you to pm the person and see what he or she will do to change it . But it is not disrespectful.

To ME an most VETS burning the flag, walking or wiping your feet on it, defacing the flag, OR TURNING THE FLAG UPSIDE DOWN, is the EXACT SAME OFFENSIVE ACT, for the sole purpose of drawing NEGATIVE attention, to your personal POLITICAL OPINIONS. NEVER IS IT A SIGN OF PATRIOTISM, IT IS ALWAYS A DISRESPECTFUL ACT TO DELIBERATELY PUSH BUTTONS OF THOSE OF US WHO ARE PROUD OF FLAG WE SERVED UNDER. It is EXACTLY the same kind of things Hanoi Jane and her Commrades did. THE FLAG, should be something that is always HONORED, because it DOES NOT REPRESENT crooked, deceitful Polititions, IT REPRESENTS THE BRAVE, HONORABLE MEN AND WOMEN WHO SERVED UNDER THAT FLAG, MANY OF WHOM DIED SERVING UNDER THAT FLAG.

I also believe disrespecting the Flag and those who served under that Flag in anyway, IS A SINFUL ACT OF DISOBEDIENCE TO WHAT GOD HAS COMMANDED.

1 Peter 2:13-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.

Mark 12:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And Jesus answered and said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they marveled at Him.

Romans 13:1-8 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
1 Peter 2:17-19 (NIV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.
THE ONLY REASON this Country's Politians for the most part, have been the WRONG people to have in Office, IS MOST CHRISTIANS DO NOT BOTHER TO VOTE. It is NOT our FLAG's fault, SO DO NOT DISHONOR IT, and realize that the people who are using the FLAG to make a political statement to point out the problems of our Government, have FAILED TO RECOGNIZE that the three finger point back at themselves while they point, are identifying the REAL PROBLEM.

You do not think the FLAG should be Honored and held in High Esteem?
Then why on earth do you think these VETERANS GOT SO ANGRY.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG1xsENCaQA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxVf0YsGFZ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD0JyYdqZbk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po7k5O9LtBo

 

[CS1]

To ME an most VETS burning the flag, walking or wiping your feet on it, defacing the flag, OR TURNING THE FLAG UPSIDE DOWN, is the EXACT SAME OFFENSIVE ACT, for the sole purpose of drawing NEGATIVE attention, to your personal POLITICAL OPINIONS. NEVER IS IT A SIGN OF PATRIOTISM, IT IS ALWAYS A DISRESPECTFUL ACT TO DELIBERATELY PUSH BUTTONS OF THOSE OF US WHO ARE PROUD OF FLAG WE SERVED UNDER. It is EXACTLY the same kind of things Hanoi Jane and her Commrades did. THE FLAG, should be something that is always HONORED, because it DOES NOT REPRESENT crooked, deceitful Polititions, IT REPRESENTS THE BRAVE, HONORABLE MEN AND WOMEN WHO SERVED UNDER THAT FLAG, MANY OF WHOM DIED SERVING UNDER THAT FLAG.

I also believe disrespecting the Flag and those who served under that Flag in anyway, IS A SINFUL ACT OF DISOBEDIENCE TO WHAT GOD HAS COMMANDED.

1 Peter 2:13-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.

Mark 12:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And Jesus answered and said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they marveled at Him.

Romans 13:1-8 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
1 Peter 2:17-19 (NIV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.
THE ONLY REASON this Country's Politians for the most part, have been the WRONG people to have in Office, IS MOST CHRISTIANS DO NOT BOTHER TO VOTE. It is NOT our FLAG's fault, SO DO NOT DISHONOR IT, and realize that the people who are using the FLAG to make a political statement to point out the problems of our Government, have FAILED TO RECOGNIZE that the three finger point back at themselves while they point, are identifying the REAL PROBLEM.

You do not think the FLAG should be Honored and held in High Esteem?
Then why on earth do you think these VETERANS GOT SO ANGRY.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG1xsENCaQA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxVf0YsGFZ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD0JyYdqZbk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po7k5O9LtBo

I see you reposted this same thread with my post . So I will say you have your opinion and it is to be respected.
That being said the part you say:


"I also believe disrespecting the Flag and those who served under that Flag in anyway, IS A SINFUL ACT OF DISOBEDIENCE TO WHAT GOD HAS COMMANDED."
I do not agree with at all. this is subject to application and context. God does not expect us to follow the
"ordinance of man for the Lord's sake,"

When those ordinances violate the Word of God and HIS moral standard. The four Hebrew Children Did not follow the Decree given by the King which was the Law of man and the land that God said thou shall not do Found in Daniel . Nor Did Daniel which caused him to be placed in the lions den.
Peter and those which him were GIVEN strict orders by the authorities Not to preach Jesus they did not obey that order.

I am sorry you feel this way but it is not a sin to pst the Flag upside down. Given today's moral compass it could be appropriate. BUt that too is debatable but not sinful ...

 

[notuptome]

All knowledge includes all knowledge, so it does have to do with the context of the chapter.

the passage does not say all knowledge it says knowledge.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Joh 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

How is this a response to what I wrote? It is a great verse and all, but I showed that the Egyptians would know that Yahweh is Yahweh when he stretched forth His hand on Egypt. We both know He did so with a number of signs and wonders.

Sure, the Egyptians should have known God from creation, but that is true of Jews also. God still chose to do signs.

I disproved your theory with scripture, and then you dodged the issue.

Not at all you simply do not understand Gods motive in His bringing Israel out of Egypt. The Egyptians had knowledge of Jehovah through Joseph and the blessing God gave during the famine. The signs did not produce a conversion among the Egyptians.

Gentile believers are partakers of the blessings of Israel, grafted into their olive tree. You should know that to, but I do not know if you like to retain it.

Gentiles are blessed but they do not assume the prophesies to Israel. The church does not replace Israel. God has specific promises made to Israel the He will fulfill and the church will rejoice for Israel.

The spiriutal gifts continue at least until Christ returns. The rock music comment was your red herring (a red herring straw man, how's that for a mental picture?). You brought it up. Don't blame me for responding.

Yes but three have ended. If the Pentecostal charismatic church were separated and holy for the Lord it would not embrace carnal worldly music and conduct in the church. Red herring used for a purpose.

This is sad. You didn't dig into the Bible to look up the scriptures I refer to. Why condemn if you haven't studied something out? Are you content to get your doctrine from a narrow scope of sermons without searching more deeply into the scriptures?

Evangelism is important, and plays an important role in God's plan. I am not taking away from that. Christ's words in what has been called 'The Great Commission' are also very important. But it is not true that believers only exist for evangelism. The Bible does not teach that.

Consider Ephesians 3
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Part of God's plan is to show His wisdom through the church to principalities and powers.

Paul could also see that believers living holy lives was important to God. It is not the case that God only cares about evangelism, getting more souls saved, and not about the state of the believers who are already believers, and how they lived their lives. Paul spent a lot of ink to convince believers to live holy, for example, encouraging Corinthians and Thessalonians not to fornicate. Believers living holy, being in unity, and growing and maturing is also important to God.

I Corinthians 11
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Ephesians 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

How can we read this and not conclude that the church growing and maturing in unity and love is not important?

The church is not powerless due to a lack of Pentecostal charismatic gifts but because she has left her first love. The church is no longer concerned with folks dying and going out into eternity apart from Christ. The believer has forgotten how wonderful it was to be forgiven for the sins that surely would have sent them to the lake of fire.

The church without a burden for the lost is like salt with no savor. Why should we let evangelism slide? Christ came to seek and to save the lost. His miracles testified to His authority yet Israel rejected Him. His resurrection gave power to those who received Him to proclaim the gospel to the whole world. God is saving souls not because they saw miracles but because they believed in the name of Jesus.

Evangelism a part of your church ministry. I suspect it is a part so small that if it were gone entirely you would never miss it.

I must stop before I say anything more.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Not at all you simply do not understand Gods motive in His bringing Israel out of Egypt. The Egyptians had knowledge of Jehovah through Joseph and the blessing God gave during the famine. The signs did not produce a conversion among the Egyptians.

Roger

Your post 776 contains a grave error. We need to straighten it out to present truth.

The whole action of God in the Exodus record was to convince the Pharaoh to let the Hebrews depart without war against them. There isn't a shred of fact the Egyptians embraced the truth that Moses held, but instead reacted in self defense by giving up what the Hebrews demanded. The Hebrews soon complained against Moses' God for removing them from familiar grounds, their way of life spawned over 4 centuries.

The greater effect was mighty Egypt obeying God at least long enough for the Hebrews to escape. Once hat objective was met, God was able to partially deal with the tribes. Regardless, that whole generation of Hebrews died short of their blessing, only two surviving to be witnesses of the great event.

 

[VCO]

. . .
That being said the part you say:


"I also believe disrespecting the Flag and those who served under that Flag in anyway, IS A SINFUL ACT OF DISOBEDIENCE TO WHAT GOD HAS COMMANDED."
I do not agree with at all. this is subject to application and context. God does not expect us to follow the
"ordinance of man for the Lord's sake,"

When those ordinances violate the Word of God and HIS moral standard. . .

Okay, I agree with that last statement, but suppose you try to tell me what showing proper respect for the FLAG, has to do with violating the WORD OF GOD, and HIS MORAL STANDARD? We either do not understand each other, or you MISSED The Commandments I was referring too.

1. The Bible says, we are to Submit to EVERY Ordinance of Man for the the Lord's sake. The Proper FLAG Etiquette is an Ordinance of Man, that does not VIOLATE anything GOD had Commanded. Within the Ordinance it states: "It is flown upside down only as a distress signal." To WHOM is that signal intended for? OTHER U.S. Forces. They fly it as Political Statement of their own Political Opinions, VIOLATING THE INTENTION OF THE ORDINANCE. I suspect the PRIDE of rebelling against the System, and rubbing in the noses of the True Patriots, has infinitely MORE to do with it than having ANYTHING to do with Signalling Other U.S. FORCES.
http://www.usa-flag-site.org/flag-etiquette/


2. The Bible says we are to show proper respect for everyone. The FLAG of the USA was bought and paid for with AMERICAN BLOOD, and everyone else who served in the Military Service. To disrespect the Flag IS TO DISRESPECT THE VETERAN. Yet you choose to show disrespect for the Veterans by white-washing and trying to justify the insult of turning the US FLAG upside down, just as a Political Statement. To me, all they appear to be is Hanoi Jane want-a-bees. Don't you think if they really cared about Obeying GOD, and being Patriotic, and Honoring the US Troops, they would turn the flag up, and go out to encourage every single American CHRISTIAN TO VOTE this year, instead of remaining just part of the problem?

3. The Bible tells me that we are to GIVE HONOR TO THE ONE HONOR is due. I am telling you that there is NO GREATER WAY TO SHOW HONOR FOR THE VETERAN, THAN to treat the U.S. FLAG with proper respect, ESPECIALLY in his or her's presence.

You HONOR VETERANS BY FLYING THE FLAG RIGHT AND SHOWING RESPECT FOR IT.

4. The JESUS taught us to give unto Caesar (the Government) the things that are Caesar's. ONE OF THOSE THINGS required by the Government is for us to show proper respect for the U.S. FLAG.

 

[RickyZ]

VCO, with all due respect -

Do you believe the flag you fought for should be up for sale to the highest bidder?

Do you believe the prosperity and freedom symbolized by the flag you fought for should benefit only a very small few (say, only 1% of the people?)

Do you believe the honorable men and women who fight for our flag should be treated and paid like dogs by our leaders?

Do you believe that the honorable men and women who fight for our flag should be used as pawns by those in leadership of this country?

Do you believe that the honorable men and women who fight for our flag should be sent to die and bleed for regions and peoples who hate and disrespect that flag?

Do you believe that the honorable men and women who fight for our flag should be used as bartering chips between leaders who seek their own profit and glory?

Do you believe that the honorable men and women who fight for our flag should be denied recognition for their sacrifices by those who rule us?

The flag that you and your fellow heroes fight for has been kidnapped and held hostage by those who lead this country. You and your fellow heroes have been disrespected by those who lead this country. You and your fellow heroes have been used as pawns in our leader's ill-conceived games and plans.

With all due respect, you and your fellow heroes should be the ones who recognize most the distress our flag and the country it symbolizes has been placed into.

The inverted flag does not disrespect the men and women who fight for it's pride.

The inverted flag calls attention to those leaders who show it no respect.

 

[presidente]

the passage does not say all knowledge it says knowledge.

See verse 2 in the same passage,
"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."

Not at all you simply do not understand Gods motive in His bringing Israel out of Egypt. The Egyptians had knowledge of Jehovah through Joseph and the blessing God gave during the famine. The signs did not produce a conversion among the Egyptians.

Let's stay on topic. You keep insisting that signs are for Jews and not Gentiles. But I've shown you plenty of scripture that signs were for Gentiles. Whether Egyptians were converted, before the mystery of the Gospel was even revealed, before Christ came, is not the point. The signs showed Egypt that the Yahweh is Yahweh?

I have posted this before.
Acts 15:12
All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.(NASB)

I also pointed out that Sergius Paulus believed, astonished at the teaching of the Lord, after he saw Elymas struck blind. He was most likely a Gentile. The Samaritans, a people Jesus called foreigners, repented when they saw the miracles Stephen did.

Not only do you not have a single verse of scripture that teaches that signs are only for Jews and not for Gentiles, but there are many scriptures that prove that this is not the case. I have posted these things to you in the past, probably a few times.

I have a serious honest question for you. Why do you keep posting this viewpoint, with a scripture that doesn't support your point of view ('the Jews require a sign'), even after being shown scriptures that contradict it? I really don't get it. Do you have some sort of difficulty with your memory? I really don't understand.

Gentiles are blessed but they do not assume the prophesies to Israel. The church does not replace Israel. God has specific promises made to Israel the He will fulfill and the church will rejoice for Israel.

Regarding Acts 2, you say this is a promise to Israel, but notice what it is a prophecy about. It is about the Spirit being poured out on 'all flesh.' Peter said regarding the promise of remission of sins and the Spirit 'For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call. (Acts 2:38b NKJV). Gentiles were afar off (Ephesians 2:17.) In Acts 10, we see Gentiles also received the Spirit and spoke in tongues. Peter said that God had not made a difference between 'them and us.'

If you try to argue that this is for the Jews only, in spite of the evidence, it still presents a major problem for your belief system. There are still Jews and this is still the last days, and when believing Jews prophesy, that contradicts your theology, though it is Biblical.

Belief in spiritual gifts does not rest solely on Acts 2, either. We see them in I Corinthians, which says 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If the Pentecostal charismatic church were separated and holy for the Lord it would not embrace carnal worldly music and conduct in the church. Red herring used for a purpose.

I think you are getting Pentecostals and Charismatics mixed up. At least in the US in my experience, a lot of Pentecostals sing hymns out of hymnals or rather 'tame' sounding choruses that don't have four stanzas.

But be that as it may, if you have a problem with modern music styles, that doesn't mean God does. Can you show me one speck of Biblical proof that God likes Methodist hymns, honky tonk or country western sounding gospel music, but not upbeat music on an electric guitar? I know there is one preacher who has preached against rock music, but he is a musician who plays a kind of music that would have been popular in the 1950's. I heard some Jim Reeves music, and it reminded me of that preachers Gospel music. That hymn, "There is going to be a meeting in the air" is ragtime. Someone who heard it in the 1800's who was conservative about hymns might have rejected it as well. Charles Wesley's hymns were also controversial. So was the use of Bach's music 'Ode to Joy.'

David felt free to praise God to the musical accompaniment of an 'instrument of Gath', so if God could accept those praises, I see no reason to think that He won't accept sincere praise sung to the sound of an electric guitar and drums. You've got your own hang ups. Don't be so arrogant as to think that God shares your musical opinions. You do not have the authority to set the standard for God or for other believers in this matter.

The church without a burden for the lost is like salt with no savor. Why should we let evangelism slide? Christ came to seek and to save the lost. His miracles testified to His authority yet Israel rejected Him. His resurrection gave power to those who received Him to proclaim the gospel to the whole world. God is saving souls not because they saw miracles but because they believed in the name of Jesus.

I am not arguing against the need for a passion for souls in the least. Proclaiming the Gospel to the world is very important. It is just unbiblical to say that the only reason believers exist is to evangelize. God has a plan for the church. God loves the church.

As far as passion for the lost and evangelism is concerned, one of the reasons the Pentecostal movement is so huge is because of the evangelistic fervor and fervor for missions in the movement. It spread across the world through missionary effort. Actually, it started as separate revivals in different countries that happened around the time of Azusa Street. American Pentecostals sent out a lot of missionaries. Having lived overseas, I know that a lot of Pentecostals and Charismatics are descendants of idolators and unbelievers. It wasn't only a change of people from one denomination to another.

Healing and spiritual gifts have also played a role in this church growth. I saw an interesting lecture from David Aikman, former Time magazine and chief correspondent in Beijing who told of how many Chinese reported healings and believed they occured, and he was able to interview witnesses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvgveawp4oY