Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

You know, there are several things one must stay aware to when talking about groups. One is that group get profiled usually on majority view . Secondly that in all groups, there will be individuals who exist primarily outside the group profile. Next is perception, how a group is perceived (right or wrong). Then there is discussion, most often based upon perceptions.

In discussion we have to consider tone. A lot of the 'no' crowd has this perception of the charismatica as a side show - and for good reason. You know there are those who take it too far, and even commit fraud. That's a big part of Paul's reason to write 1 Cor. 14. To tell them to put a leash on it, and to discern time and place.

Since that is the perception of the profile in these discussions, my responses are directed to that perception and profile. Sure, in painting with such a broad brush it inadvertently covers those exceptions to the profile and it's perception.

And that obviously caught you in it, so I apologize to you.

If you are familiar with my words you will know that I defend the gifts jealously. To be honest a lot of what I've learned was in what some would call a charismatic church. But it was one that was leashed, that knew time and place and didn't go to excess. They didn't call themselves charismatic either, or much by denomination either. It was just a place where people could go and worship in the understanding and the Spirit. It didn't need to be more, or show more.

I agree whole heartedly that the charismatica is sorely missing from the true church today, and needs to be instilled into these lest they perish in the coming days. But it needs to be instilled into the streets, not just the assembly room. Lifting praise in church on a warm spring day is not what we with the charismatica need to focus on. Taking the charismatica into the streets in warfare and redemption are.

When I say charismatic, I'm talking about those who've gone off the deep end. Which is what a lot of the naysayers are picturing. I know there are true gatherings of Charismatic believers, and I never actually meant to slight them.

Perhaps I should use the term 'pretenders to the tongue' instead

Far better interaction/dialogue/discussion than Amellinialman offered.

 

[VCO]

VCO, with all due respect -

Do you believe the flag you fought for should be up for sale to the highest bidder?

Do you believe the prosperity and freedom symbolized by the flag you fought for should benefit only a very small few (say, only 1% of the people?)

Do you believe the honorable men and women who fight for our flag should be treated and paid like dogs by our leaders?

Do you believe that the honorable men and women who fight for our flag should be used as pawns by those in leadership of this country?

Do you believe that the honorable men and women who fight for our flag should be sent to die and bleed for regions and peoples who hate and disrespect that flag?

Do you believe that the honorable men and women who fight for our flag should be used as bartering chips between leaders who seek their own profit and glory?

Do you believe that the honorable men and women who fight for our flag should be denied recognition for their sacrifices by those who rule us?

The flag that you and your fellow heroes fight for has been kidnapped and held hostage by those who lead this country. You and your fellow heroes have been disrespected by those who lead this country. You and your fellow heroes have been used as pawns in our leader's ill-conceived games and plans.

With all due respect, you and your fellow heroes should be the ones who recognize most the distress our flag and the country it symbolizes has been placed into.

The inverted flag does not disrespect the men and women who fight for it's pride.

The inverted flag calls attention to those leaders who show it no respect.

LIKE I SAID, we have bad leaders because of people who did not bother to VOTE, so do not take it out on OUR FLAG, and do not take it out on our VETERANS. Turning the FLAG upside down is an INSULT to us VETERANS. The FLAG does NOT stand for bad leaders, the FLAG STANDS FOR VETERANS WHO HAVE DIED and SERVED HONORABLY. EVERY THREAD of that FLAG was bought and paid for with the blood of fallen Heroes. HOW DARE YOU DISRESPECT THAT BY TURNING THE FLAG UPSIDE DOWN FOR YOUR POLITICAL AGENDA. But HEY, Hanoi Jane would be proud of you! I, as a CHRISTIAN who Served, am ashamed of you. To me turning FLAG upside down is the same as spitting on it.

Remember, those who fought for FREEDOM, bought and paid for your freedom, say what you want, even if is a TOTAL INSULT. But there is another FREEDOM, you are ignoring, and that is the FREEDOM TO LEAVE if you do not like it here.

[video=youtube;viHa7jzOUjM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viHa7jzOUjM[/video]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARFhbyjZASc

 

[VCO]

I am sorry for getting SO FAR OFF THE SUBJECT. I will leave this Thread and not come back. We were mistreated and disrespected when we came home during the Vietnam Era. It hurt then, and I still cry every time I see disrespect for OUR FLAG.

Please forgive me for derailing the THREAD.

 

[popeye]

I am sorry for getting SO FAR OFF THE SUBJECT. I will leave this Thread and not come back. We were mistreated and disrespected when we came home during the Vietnam Era. It hurt then, and I still cry every time I see disrespect for OUR FLAG.

Please forgive me for derailing the THREAD.

You alarm is understood.

I appreciate you sir.

Thank you for your service and sacrifice.

May Gods blessing smile down upon you and every blessing overtake you.

 

[popeye]

Double post sorry

 

[popeye]

NEVER, that is disrespect for to ALL of us who have SERVED. IF an enemy had taken over a US Fort, it would be the appropriate way to warn the relief column. As a Liberalist Political Satement, is a INSULT to all VETERANS. On the Street, I would rip the flag out of the hands of who ever was carrying it, and PROTECT THE FLAG WITH MY LIFE. THAT IS HOW SERIOUS A REAL VETERAN TAKES DEFACING THE FLAG. TURNING IT UPSIDE DOWN IS A FORM OF DEFACING THE FLAG, AND IT IS EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE TO EVERY REAL VETERAN. You don't like the politics You VOTE AGAINST IT, you don't INSULT the Veterans by turning OUR FLAG UPSIDE DOWN.

The RED STRIPES represent the BLOOD THAT WAS SHED in defense of the FLAG.
The WHITE STRIPES stand for the Bandages used to tend to the WOUNDED.
The NUMBER OF STRIPES, represent the original thirteen Colonies.
The BLUE FIELD represents vigilance, perseverance, and justice,
The WHITE STARS represent the total number of US STATES.

LEARN WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE LEARNED IN GRADE SCHOOL. IT IS AN OFFENSE TO EVERY VETERAN, ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO DIED IN BATTLE TO TURN OUR FLAG UPSIDE DOWN. THAT FLAG IS TO CARRIED IN HONOR, UPRIGHT INTO BATTLE WITH THE BLUE FIELD FOREWORD, RESPECTING THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN. THAT BLUE FIELD NEVER TURNS IN BATTLE, NEITHER TO THE REAR, NOR UPSIDE DOWN, IN RESPECT FOR THOSE WHO FELL IN BATTLE.

I VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE WITH YOU. WHERE IS YOUR SENSE OF PATRIOTISM. EVEN JESUS SET THE PROPER CHRISTIAN RESPONSE, WHEN HE CRIED FOR JERUSALEM AND PRAYED FOR HER.

HE DID NOT SAY, INSULT HER AND TURN HER FLAG UPSIDE DOWN. REPENT.



Romans 13:1-8 (NKJV)
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

I am shocked that you Popeye, have been influenced by Liberalist Politics.


[video=youtube;shU_eiyVRvk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shU_eiyVRvk[/video]

The fort is overtaken.

Not only that,there is remedy to get Obama arrested. It is the US Marines with the sergeant at arms .

US Marines have failed us.

 

[garee]

Not at all you simply do not understand Gods motive in His bringing Israel out of Egypt. The Egyptians had knowledge of Jehovah through Joseph and the blessing God gave during the famine. The signs did not produce a conversion among the Egyptians.

Exactly it’s the key that seems to be left out for some reason or other. Signs are designed for the rebellious, no faith, as in natural unconverted man.

No such thing as a sign gift. The words (sign and gift) oppose each other. We walk by faith the unseen. The gift comes through the word of God (prophecy) the spiritual word as that not seen ,the faith principle.

Where did the idea of sign gift (walking by sight) originate?

I think it is important that we look to the foundation of doctrines to see if they are of God or doctrines of men as oral traditions thereof .

How did the word charismatic which simply means a favor with which one receives without any merit of his own. The gift of divine grace. The gift of faith, knowledge, holiness. How did it become a sign gift ?

Who assigned it that title? What's the purpose? How does it motivate the believer to walk by faith and not by sight?

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

 

[popeye]

We had one last remedy,outside Gods intervention,which is IN PLACE FOR THIS US TAKEOVER.

We let it slip by.

We also watched and did nothing in Benghazi.

Those leaders should be arrested.

Obama has put homosexuals in many offices,and is trying to turn the military into a gay fighting force.

Your emotion about the flag is a good thing. It chokes me up too.

I can not even get through the national anthem with out shedding a few tears.

That flag,to me represents the fallen,and that,to me,is " holy ground"

But here is the deal. All our fallen,with a demonic,gay,Muslim,America hater as our top leader(pause here to shudder),has trampled the sacrifice of our fallen.

That demands arrest and imprisonment.

It will not happen.

Even if trump is "elected",he isn't sworn in until next year.

I really believe Obama has put enough laws and judges,and generals in place to ensure we never have another president.

We have lost. Make preparation.

 

[popeye]

Exactly it’s the key that seems to be left out for some reason or other. Signs are designed for the rebellious, no faith, as in natural unconverted man.

No such thing as a sign gift. The words (sign and gift) oppose each other. We walk by faith the unseen. The gift comes through the word of God (prophecy) the spiritual word as that not seen ,the faith principle.

Where did the idea of sign gift (walking by sight) originate?

I think it is important that we look to the foundation of doctrines to see if they are of God or doctrines of men as oral traditions thereof .

How did the word charismatic which simply means a favor with which one receives without any merit of his own. The gift of divine grace. The gift of faith, knowledge, holiness. How did it become a sign gift ?

Who assigned it that title? What's the purpose? How does it motivate the believer to walk by faith and not by sight?

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

All you did was take a position,and ignore the other side.

Lets do the same with salvation.

Lets ignore all the verses verifying it,assume all born again humans are fakes,and find verses to promote that concept.

That is ALL you did.

 

[JaumeJ]

Please always bear in mind, many times people have a position because they already have heard and know well the other side......this would be you and he and I and all.......

God bless alll in Jesus Christ, amen.

May none of us ever be so opinionated as to neglect shooing in the sheep, amen.

All you did was take a position,and ignore the other side.

Lets do the same with salvation.

Lets ignore all the verses verifying it,assume all born again humans are fakes,and find verses to promote that concept.

That is ALL you did.

 

[notuptome]

See verse 2 in the same passage,
"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."

Paul is using hyperbole when he says though I have all faith. He did not have all faith nor did he have all knowledge. Only Christ had all faith and all knowledge. Paul never removed a mountain though he was a mighty man for God.

Let's stay on topic. You keep insisting that signs are for Jews and not Gentiles. But I've shown you plenty of scripture that signs were for Gentiles. Whether Egyptians were converted, before the mystery of the Gospel was even revealed, before Christ came, is not the point. The signs showed Egypt that the Yahweh is Yahweh?

I have posted this before.
Acts 15:12
All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.(NASB)

I also pointed out that Sergius Paulus believed, astonished at the teaching of the Lord, after he saw Elymas struck blind. He was most likely a Gentile. The Samaritans, a people Jesus called foreigners, repented when they saw the miracles Stephen did.

Not only do you not have a single verse of scripture that teaches that signs are only for Jews and not for Gentiles, but there are many scriptures that prove that this is not the case. I have posted these things to you in the past, probably a few times.

I have a serious honest question for you. Why do you keep posting this viewpoint, with a scripture that doesn't support your point of view ('the Jews require a sign'), even after being shown scriptures that contradict it? I really don't get it. Do you have some sort of difficulty with your memory? I really don't understand.

Paul and Barnabas were relating to the apostles at Jerusalem that the works God was doing in saving Gentile souls was the same as God was doing for Jews. The signs were an evidence for the Jews present not for the Gentiles. Jews despised Gentiles and wanted nothing to do with them. A correct understanding of the scripture and a correct knowledge of Gods nature very much supports the position.

Regarding Acts 2, you say this is a promise to Israel, but notice what it is a prophecy about. It is about the Spirit being poured out on 'all flesh.' Peter said regarding the promise of remission of sins and the Spirit 'For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call. (Acts 2:38b NKJV). Gentiles were afar off (Ephesians 2:17.) In Acts 10, we see Gentiles also received the Spirit and spoke in tongues. Peter said that God had not made a difference between 'them and us.'

If you try to argue that this is for the Jews only, in spite of the evidence, it still presents a major problem for your belief system. There are still Jews and this is still the last days, and when believing Jews prophesy, that contradicts your theology, though it is Biblical.

Belief in spiritual gifts does not rest solely on Acts 2, either. We see them in I Corinthians, which says 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Joel certainly prophecies that the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh. God is saving Jews and Gentiles by grace through faith. Just as God promised Abraham.

Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Joel does say that your sons and your daughters will prophesy and not all flesh.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

I think you are getting Pentecostals and Charismatics mixed up. At least in the US in my experience, a lot of Pentecostals sing hymns out of hymnals or rather 'tame' sounding choruses that don't have four stanzas.

But be that as it may, if you have a problem with modern music styles, that doesn't mean God does. Can you show me one speck of Biblical proof that God likes Methodist hymns, honky tonk or country western sounding gospel music, but not upbeat music on an electric guitar? I know there is one preacher who has preached against rock music, but he is a musician who plays a kind of music that would have been popular in the 1950's. I heard some Jim Reeves music, and it reminded me of that preachers Gospel music. That hymn, "There is going to be a meeting in the air" is ragtime. Someone who heard it in the 1800's who was conservative about hymns might have rejected it as well. Charles Wesley's hymns were also controversial. So was the use of Bach's music 'Ode to Joy.'

David felt free to praise God to the musical accompaniment of an 'instrument of Gath', so if God could accept those praises, I see no reason to think that He won't accept sincere praise sung to the sound of an electric guitar and drums. You've got your own hang ups. Don't be so arrogant as to think that God shares your musical opinions. You do not have the authority to set the standard for God or for other believers in this matter.

You shall know them by their fruits. Carnal is a carnal does.

I am not arguing against the need for a passion for souls in the least. Proclaiming the Gospel to the world is very important. It is just unbiblical to say that the only reason believers exist is to evangelize. God has a plan for the church. God loves the church.

As far as passion for the lost and evangelism is concerned, one of the reasons the Pentecostal movement is so huge is because of the evangelistic fervor and fervor for missions in the movement. It spread across the world through missionary effort. Actually, it started as separate revivals in different countries that happened around the time of Azusa Street. American Pentecostals sent out a lot of missionaries. Having lived overseas, I know that a lot of Pentecostals and Charismatics are descendants of idolators and unbelievers. It wasn't only a change of people from one denomination to another.

Healing and spiritual gifts have also played a role in this church growth. I saw an interesting lecture from David Aikman, former Time magazine and chief correspondent in Beijing who told of how many Chinese reported healings and believed they occured, and he was able to interview witnesses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvgveawp4oY

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Saved by grace through faith.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Miracles signs and wonders do not produce faith. Only the word of God stirred in the heart by the Holy Spirit produces faith that receives the saving grace of God.

John 6:60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

I don't know what the Chinese got I only hope it was genuine saving grace but only God knows. Those who followed Jesus turned back when the Lord gave them doctrine. They followed for the miracles but fell away in the face of sound doctrine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[popeye]

Paul is using hyperbole when he says though I have all faith. He did not have all faith nor did he have all knowledge. Only Christ had all faith and all knowledge. Paul never removed a mountain though he was a mighty man for God. Paul and Barnabas were relating to the apostles at Jerusalem that the works God was doing in saving Gentile souls was the same as God was doing for Jews. The signs were an evidence for the Jews present not for the Gentiles. Jews despised Gentiles and wanted nothing to do with them. A correct understanding of the scripture and a correct knowledge of Gods nature very much supports the position. Joel certainly prophecies that the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh. God is saving Jews and Gentiles by grace through faith. Just as God promised Abraham.

Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Joel does say that your sons and your daughters will prophesy and not all flesh.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
You shall know them by their fruits. Carnal is a carnal does.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Saved by grace through faith.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Miracles signs and wonders do not produce faith. Only the word of God stirred in the heart by the Holy Spirit produces faith that receives the saving grace of God.

John 6:60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

I don't know what the Chinese got I only hope it was genuine saving grace but only God knows. Those who followed Jesus turned back when the Lord gave them doctrine. They followed for the miracles but fell away in the face of sound doctrine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

That is like putting everything in a blender and telling us what you are blending is all there is out there.

Truth of the matter,God ain't in our boxes.

Take born again believers as examples.

There are several levels,or stages,or degrees of maturity.

That is WHY it says ".. Not layaing again foundations of baptism etc....BUT LET US PRESS ON TO MATURITY"

And

"....i would that I could give you meat,but I have to give you milk...." (paraphrase)

Babes in Christ are not mature saints,and gifts are not the same as salvation.

Nor are they faith destroyers.

Those are bogus attempts,at disenfranchising what JESUS said we need.

Equipping comes before ministry.

Look up the power references.

Eye opening.

 

[garee]

All you did was take a position, and ignore the other side.

It actually covers both sides, I believe. I think it has much to do on how we view faith in respect to whose and what kind?

The position I did take was in respect to the faith of Christ, as it teaches us we abide in him and not the oral traditions of men which it seems you are trying to support. Signs gifts is not a tradition of God found in the scriptures.

The word sign and gift appose each other. Signs are designed for the rebellious as something we could do. They are for the unbeliever, no faith of Christ in God or what he calls the forward generation.

The Pentecost experience was two fold, as prophecy God gave his interpretation to three thousands souls that were born again, which at the same time fulfilled the sign to the unbelievers to confirm they were not walking by faith..

Christ said it is an evil generation, natural converted, the forward generation of man that seeks after one. and added none will be given other than the sign of Jonas which Christ fulfilled according to his three day work of faith..or called a labor of love.

Prophecy the spiritual words of Christ are for those who do believe (have the faith that comes from hearing God). This is not of our own selves as a natural faith generated from the imaginations of one’s own heart/conscience. The same source that the religious atheist that God calls fools believing there is no God in his heart and verify what he did say.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, "not to them that believe", but to them that "believe not": but prophesying ( the hearing of faith) serveth not for them that "believe not", but for "them which believe".

When looking at the gifts (not seen) of the Holy Spirit in Chapter 12 of 1 Corinthians not one of them comes as an outward sign.

Tongues is the work of God that give men His understanding in their own language. None of it is attributed to men as a sign to their owns elves God is with them .Its His invisible Spirit that witness to our born again spirit that we are His children .

Lets do the same with salvation.

Lets ignore all the verses verifying it,assume all born again humans are fakes,and find verses to promote that concept. That is ALL you did.

That was not my goal.

Verifying what? That signs as that seen like the rod of Aaron are for those who believe not?

Num 17:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Bring Aaron's rod again before the testimony, to be kept for a “token” against the rebels; and thou shalt quite take away their murmurings from me, that they die not.

 

[popeye]

Please always bear in mind, many times people have a position because they already have heard and know well the other side......this would be you and he and I and all.......

God bless alll in Jesus Christ, amen.

May none of us ever be so opinionated as to neglect shooing in the sheep, amen.

The way we know what we receive is from God is 1) the inward witness. 2) the written word.

Experience,combined with the confirmation of the bible.
That is the protocol.

I did not make it up

I welcome any challenge. I believe it is healthy.

If I stand on the word,which I do,they their"job" is to prove me wrong "with their bible"

My job is to make them go against the bible,not my experience.

I am appalled at the OMISSION of the cessationist,not the "articulate full gospel defense" they SHOULD apply.

They OMIT. Showcasing it is easy.

I have an easy job. They ABSOLUTELY MUST twist God's word.

I already showed Roger that. He ignored it.

1cor 13 toward the end. THEN.

1 word destroys an entire doctrine .

I celebrate that with great delight and joy.
Because I have shown them the way out of a false doctrine.

To me,if that is shoo Ing,then let us all shooo

 

[RickyZ]

Far better interaction/dialogue/discussion than Amellinialman offered.

Why, thank you

 

[RickyZ]

LIKE I SAID, we have bad leaders because of people who did not bother to VOTE, so do not take it out on OUR FLAG, and do not take it out on our VETERANS. Turning the FLAG upside down is an INSULT to us VETERANS. The FLAG does NOT stand for bad leaders, the FLAG STANDS FOR VETERANS WHO HAVE DIED and SERVED HONORABLY. EVERY THREAD of that FLAG was bought and paid for with the blood of fallen Heroes. HOW DARE YOU DISRESPECT THAT BY TURNING THE FLAG UPSIDE DOWN FOR YOUR POLITICAL AGENDA. But HEY, Hanoi Jane would be proud of you! I, as a CHRISTIAN who Served, am ashamed of you. To me turning FLAG upside down is the same as spitting on it.

Remember, those who fought for FREEDOM, bought and paid for your freedom, say what you want, even if is a TOTAL INSULT. But there is another FREEDOM, you are ignoring, and that is the FREEDOM TO LEAVE if you do not like it here.

[video=youtube;viHa7jzOUjM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viHa7jzOUjM[/video]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARFhbyjZASc

I'll agree with you that the people get the leadership they deserve. There ought to be a 'knowledge of the issues' test before one is allowed to vote, so that we know people are voting from knowledge instead of sound bites. It could be as simple as "The United States is the world's richest country, true or false". Anyone answering 'true' is obviously painfully unaware of the truth and wouldn't be allowed to vote.

Sir, I mean absolutely no disrespect to you or your service. According to the flag code the upside down flag means a nation and it's people in dire distress. Nothing more. No where does the code refer to the honor and integrity of our armed forces. For you to do so is, to borrow a phrase, an incorrect exegesis. If the other servicemen had voiced the concerns you have I would take it down. But since they have not, it stays. For now. I will ponder an alternative. But until then, if you feel spit in your face, it is not from me. I assume they taught you not to spit into the wind, right?

In fact, you sir have provided one more fine example of why and how we are in such distress. And that is because we have become a nation of the chronically offended.

 

[JaumeJ]

No one is saying you make up anything at all.....

God comes to each one of us as He knows is needed.

One man believes the Sabbath is Sunday, and another Saturday, or the first or seventh day. If they both observe with a clear conscience in the sight of God, there is no sin, no error. You know this to be true.

The same goes for what a person may or may not eat..

The paramount understanding of all who love Jesus Christ is Christ crucifeid for our sins.

There are many more examples. As concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit, well this is written, and witnessted by the Holy Spirit.

All who truly love Jesus Christ are family by Blood, and if some are misinformed, and they are, all will come out in the finishing touches by God Himself come that Great Day of our Lord,.

The way we know what we receive is from God is 1) the inward witness. 2) the written word.

Experience,combined with the confirmation of the bible.
That is the protocol.

I did not make it up

I welcome any challenge. I believe it is healthy.

If I stand on the word,which I do,they their"job" is to prove me wrong "with their bible"

My job is to make them go against the bible,not my experience.

I am appalled at the OMISSION of the cessationist,not the "articulate full gospel defense" they SHOULD apply.

They OMIT. Showcasing it is easy.

I have an easy job. They ABSOLUTELY MUST twist God's word.

I already showed Roger that. He ignored it.

1cor 13 toward the end. THEN.

1 word destroys an entire doctrine .

I celebrate that with great delight and joy.
Because I have shown them the way out of a false doctrine.

To me,if that is shoo Ing,then let us all shooo

 

[presidente]

Paul is using hyperbole when he says though I have all faith. He did not have all faith nor did he have all knowledge. Only Christ had all faith and all knowledge. Paul never removed a mountain though he was a mighty man for God.

Well, that's your stance on the issue, but it doesn't really have much to do with this part of our conversation up to now, whether, later in the chapter, Paul is speaking of knowledge in general or a subset of it as you seem to believe.

Paul and Barnabas were relating to the apostles at Jerusalem that the works God was doing in saving Gentile souls was the same as God was doing for Jews. The signs were an evidence for the Jews present not for the Gentiles.

Circular reasoning. Where is the onramp to your round highway of circular reasoning? You haven't presented any evidence at all that signs are only for Gentiles. You showed a verse that the Jews required a sign. They probably required that the meat they bought from four-legged beasts be from animals that had their throats slit that had split hooves and chewed the cud. But that doesn't mean a Gentile couldn't buy the same kind of meat and eat it.

God did signs for Jews. That doesn't mean He didn't do signs for Gentiles. There is no indication that there were any Jews present other than Paul and Barnabas when the lame man was healed through Paul and the pagan audience tried to sacrifice to them. Since there are still Jews today, believing and unbelieving, this argument of yours is not even an argument for signs ceasing.

You are committing a serious logical error. Jews requiring a sign 1) tells us what THEY wanted. 2) It doesn't say whether Gentiles required a sign or whether God would do signs for Gentiles for His purposes.

If I say, "Elvis wore blue suede shoes" that doesn't mean that no one else in history wore blue suede shoes. I can apply the same 'logic' to prove that no one goes to the bathroom anymore. After all, Saul relieved himself in a cave, so therefore, no one ever relieves him or herself anymore. That's the same type of 'logic' you are using.

Jews despised Gentiles and wanted nothing to do with them.

Some of the Judean Jews were like that. But it is likely that a number of Hellenistic Jews, a racial minority, who had to interact with Gentiles and do business dealings with them to some extent to survive were probably a bit more tolerant.[/quote]

A correct understanding of the scripture and a correct knowledge of Gods nature very much supports the position.

You should present at least some Biblical evidence that actually supports what you are saying and address why you think the scriptures that flatly contradict your viewpoint don't do so.

Joel certainly prophecies that the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh. God is saving Jews and Gentiles by grace through faith. Just as God promised Abraham.

The passage associates this with prophesying. Paul addressed the former pagan lifestyle of his audience before Paul wrote to the Corinthians about spiritual gifts like prophecy, and chapter 14 says 'For ye may all prophesy....'

Peter said of the Gentiles:
Acts 15
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.


Then there is I Corinthians 12-14. The Spirit pours out gifts like prophesying on Jew and Gentile alike. You have no right to forbid him based on your faulty interpretations that contradict other scripture.

You shall know them by their fruits. Carnal is a carnal does.

It is ironic that you should say that when the Bible teaches that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Miracles signs and wonders do not produce faith. Only the word of God stirred in the heart by the Holy Spirit produces faith that receives the saving grace of God.

You need to study the Bible more carefully and accept what it says.

Miracles can lead others to pay more attention to the word of God,
Acts 8
6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city. (NKJV)

Acts 13
11 And now, indeed, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a time.”
And immediately a dark mist fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12 Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had been done, being astonished at the teaching of the Lord. (NKJV, emphasis mine)

None of these people believed without first hearing the word. They have to believe something. But miracles in the Bible certainly play a role in evangelism, and so people believe without seeing miracles when they hear the word, some people believe the word when they see miracles, and some people don't believe whether they see miracles or not. You have a false dichotomy in the way you address the issue, as if miracles were antithetical to faith. You need to consider the verses that contradict your viewpoint, also, not just pick a prooftext that shows someone did not believe when they saw miracles.

Consider Jesus' words to Thomas in John 20:27
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

It would have been much better if Thomas had believed without seeing and touching the evidence of the miracle. He missed out on a blessing by doing so. But when he witnessed the miracle, he did believe. And Jesus was willing to have Thomas witness a miracle so that he would have faith.

But haven't I pointed this out to you? I suspect I have. You should spend some time in prayer and meditating on all relevant scriptures before posting. It is very obvious here that you are wrong about your doctrine. Why not humble yourselves and submit to what the scriptures teach? You would do well to stop pontificating, since you have been proven wrong, stop attacking, and pray and meditate about these things. If you were wrong about this, can't you allow yourself to consider that you might be wrong about other aspects of the issues related to spiritual gifts? God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

I don't know what the Chinese got I only hope it was genuine saving grace but only God knows. Those who followed Jesus turned back when the Lord gave them doctrine. They followed for the miracles but fell away in the face of sound doctrine.

Read the passage again. Jesus did not rebuke them for following him for miracles, and that wasn't why they were following Him.

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Jesus did not do signs and miracles for certain people who had the wrong attitude, but I can't find a single time He rebuked people for wanting to see His miracles. Jesus is the Word incarnate, and His miracles taught a lesson. After He cast out a demon, there were those who were astonished at his teaching. Sergius Paulus was astonished at the teaching of the Lord after Elymas was struck blind. The Lord taught and expressed the nature of God through His signs and wonders. We still read about Jesus' miracles in the Gospel to learn about God. We should appreciate these works of the Lord. You have an unbiblical anti-miracle and anti-gifts prejudice that causes you to interpret one passage of scripture in a way that contradicts another.

 

[notuptome]

That is like putting everything in a blender and telling us what you are blending is all there is out there.

Truth of the matter,God ain't in our boxes.

Take born again believers as examples.

There are several levels,or stages,or degrees of maturity.

That is WHY it says ".. Not layaing again foundations of baptism etc....BUT LET US PRESS ON TO MATURITY"

And

"....i would that I could give you meat,but I have to give you milk...." (paraphrase)

Babes in Christ are not mature saints,and gifts are not the same as salvation.

Nor are they faith destroyers.

Those are bogus attempts,at disenfranchising what JESUS said we need.

Equipping comes before ministry.

Look up the power references.

Eye opening.

Really we are in Gods box or better perfect will. God determines what we do not us.

The power is in the blood, in the gospel, the saving grace of God.

If you are deceived it because you deceive yourself. The power is not you but Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Well, that's your stance on the issue, but it doesn't really have much to do with this part of our conversation up to now, whether, later in the chapter, Paul is speaking of knowledge in general or a subset of it as you seem to believe.

Whatever.

Circular reasoning. After all, Saul relieved himself in a cave, so therefore, no one ever relieves him or herself anymore. That's the same type of 'logic' you are using.

By this you demonstrate that you have exhausted the intellectual integrity of your position.

Some of the Judean Jews were like that. But it is likely that a number of Hellenistic Jews, a racial minority, who had to interact with Gentiles and do business dealings with them to some extent to survive were probably a bit more tolerant.

As to their religious differences the Jews were very elite and very intolerant.

You should present at least some Biblical evidence that actually supports what you are saying and address why you think the scriptures that flatly contradict your viewpoint don't do so.

Opinion?

The passage associates this with prophesying. Paul addressed the former pagan lifestyle of his audience before Paul wrote to the Corinthians about spiritual gifts like prophecy, and chapter 14 says 'For ye may all prophesy....'

Peter said of the Gentiles:
Acts 15
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Equal in how they are saved but nothing to do with tongues or knowledge or prophesy.

Then there is I Corinthians 12-14. The Spirit pours out gifts like prophesying on Jew and Gentile alike. You have no right to forbid him based on your faulty interpretations that contradict other scripture.

Only three have ended the other gifts continue. What is your problem?

It is ironic that you should say that when the Bible teaches that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.

I'm wondering why you do not receive the word of God.

You need to study the Bible more carefully and accept what it says.

Miracles can lead others to pay more attention to the word of God,
Acts 8
6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city. (NKJV)

Acts 13
11 And now, indeed, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a time.”
And immediately a dark mist fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12 Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had been done, being astonished at the teaching of the Lord. (NKJV, emphasis mine)

None of these people believed without first hearing the word. They have to believe something. But miracles in the Bible certainly play a role in evangelism, and so people believe without seeing miracles when they hear the word, some people believe the word when they see miracles, and some people don't believe whether they see miracles or not. You have a false dichotomy in the way you address the issue, as if miracles were antithetical to faith. You need to consider the verses that contradict your viewpoint, also, not just pick a prooftext that shows someone did not believe when they saw miracles.

Consider Jesus' words to Thomas in John 20:27
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

It would have been much better if Thomas had believed without seeing and touching the evidence of the miracle. He missed out on a blessing by doing so. But when he witnessed the miracle, he did believe. And Jesus was willing to have Thomas witness a miracle so that he would have faith.

But haven't I pointed this out to you? I suspect I have. You should spend some time in prayer and meditating on all relevant scriptures before posting. It is very obvious here that you are wrong about your doctrine. Why not humble yourselves and submit to what the scriptures teach? You would do well to stop pontificating, since you have been proven wrong, stop attacking, and pray and meditate about these things. If you were wrong about this, can't you allow yourself to consider that you might be wrong about other aspects of the issues related to spiritual gifts? God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

I've been thinking the same thing about you.

Read the passage again. Jesus did not rebuke them for following him for miracles, and that wasn't why they were following Him.

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Jesus did not do signs and miracles for certain people who had the wrong attitude, but I can't find a single time He rebuked people for wanting to see His miracles. Jesus is the Word incarnate, and His miracles taught a lesson. After He cast out a demon, there were those who were astonished at his teaching. Sergius Paulus was astonished at the teaching of the Lord after Elymas was struck blind. The Lord taught and expressed the nature of God through His signs and wonders. We still read about Jesus' miracles in the Gospel to learn about God. We should appreciate these works of the Lord. You have an unbiblical anti-miracle and anti-gifts prejudice that causes you to interpret one passage of scripture in a way that contradicts another.

I did not suggest that Jesus rebuked them at all. I said that they turned away because they did not receive the doctrine that Jesus taught. They rejected Jesus because He told them He was going to die for them.

This is why I asked if you would still believe in the absence of signs. The faith that leads to eternal life is the faith God produces through the word of God. It is not through signs but the word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger