Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam

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Trail-of-Truth

Guest
Total inability is a belief that who we are means we are sinners to the day we die.
We can never walk righteously or be acceptable to God, only if God looks at us through Christs righteousness.

"Total inability" means we do not have free will- which is not true.

Now the bible is unclear about what this is and what righteousness and sin are completely.
As we walk with Christ our views and focus change, as we become more like Him.

The bible is very clear about what sin is and what righteousness is. "He who KNOWS the good he ought to do, yet chooses not to do it- sins." And the bible lists a lot of specific sins, and says do not be deceived- anyone who lives like this will not enter heaven. Read Galatians 5:19-23. This passage tells us what is righteous and unrighteous. The more our minds are led by the Holy Spirit through the word, the more we do right, but it still is, and always has been our free will choice. Sin is not sin unless we have a choice and choose wrong.

For some theologians sex is what defines total inability and the sexual act is sinful.

Those who commit sexual sins (rape, child molestation, homosexuality, fornication, adultery, prostitution, etc) cannot say they had no ability to not commit these sexual sins just because the sins are of sexual nature. And the act of sex, in the way that God intended, is not a sin, but a command! He ordered Adam and Eve to "be fruitful" and fill the earth with people, and they obeyed. The bible also says that a wife's body no longer belongs to her alone but also to her husband, and it says a husband's body no longer belongs to him alone but also to his wife.

Now my approach is the opposite way round. What can be achieved in life?

Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
Rev 22:10-11

We can be "holy"

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Matt 19:21

We can be "perfect"

Some say you cannot be blameless as to the law, yet Paul, Moses, Abraham were.

On this brief point, it appears we can achieve walking in righteousness and being righteous in Christ.
If this is so total inability must be wrong.

Looking at church history, the early church did not believe in total inability, but it came to the church through the gnostics.

So the next question is really how do we become so we are righteous?

Do you agree?
Yes, I agree, and am so glad you agree that we are able to be holy. Through Adam we inherited a body that sins (not inherited sins Adam committed). Of which Paul says, Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, Jesus Christ our Lord will." Romans 7:24. Through Adam came the physical, but through Christ came the spiritual. "...in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us who do not live according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." (Somewhere in Romans 8).

God never tells us to do something that is impossible for us to do. So when He says, "Be perfect as I am perfect." We can do that, no problem. How? Through the miracle of grace. I am justified by Christ's blood- "Just if I'd never even sinned at all." And if I never sinned at all, I'm perfect. Jesus shared His perfection with me, so I can obey God's command to be perfect just as He is, I just have to remain in Christ.

With God all things truly are possible if I can be counted as perfect.

 
Sep 4, 2012
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Somewhere, you seem to have gotten the idea that we are saying you have to wail, and moan, and beat yourself up for being the mistake-prone person we all are. I have to tell you, it is you, yourself, who has come up with this idea that your continued and daily "repentance" for every thing awry in your life somehow brings you back into God's love (that you have convinced yourself you fall out of with each transgression) makes you righteous.
I can't speak for Peter, but I have to confess that I have never read him indicating that he believes this way, and I can't imagine that he does.

It is a characterization, though, that seems to be constantly projected upon him and myself (and others) who do not believe the way "grace" believers do.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I can't speak for Peter, but I have to confess that I have never read him indicating that he believes this way, and I can't imagine that he does.

It is a characterization, though, that seems to be constantly projected upon him and myself (and others) who do not believe the way "grace" believers do.
I haven't heard peter say this either but others think it is what he means.
On the flip side, the same is happening in reverse. Peter is hearing things that they don't intend. They do not mean all that he thinks they mean.

It is happening in both directions.
But I believe the way we view it just depends on exactly what and how He has brought us through our trials to growing maturity.

Also, I understand what you mean when you talk of emotional health that the Lord brings to us as He renews our mind, Peter. It has been a great blessing to me to walk in truth, emotional trut,h while at the same time, it saddens me to see my mother not free in this respect. She runs from the light of truth for fear her inner sicknesses will be exposed.

But I also have great hope for her because I know how merciful He has been to me.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I haven't heard peter say this either but others think it is what he means.
On the flip side, the same is happening in reverse. Peter is hearing things that they don't intend. They do not mean all that he thinks they mean.

It is happening in both directions.
But I believe the way we view it just depends on exactly what and how He has brought us through our trials to growing maturity.

Also, I understand what you mean when you talk of emotional health that the Lord brings to us as He renews our mind, Peter. It has been a great blessing to me to walk in truth, emotional trut,h while at the same time, it saddens me to see my mother not free in this respect. She runs from the light of truth for fear her inner sicknesses will be exposed.

But I also have great hope for her because I know how merciful He has been to me.
Praying for mom, Thats the worse when those we love dearly are effected by this performance based gospel.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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I can't speak for Peter, but I have to confess that I have never read him indicating that he believes this way, and I can't imagine that he does.

It is a characterization, though, that seems to be constantly projected upon him and myself (and others) who do not believe the way "grace" believers do.
OK, I'm bored today, so I'll play for a while.

Can we sin, and tell God we are sorry and wish we hadn't hurt Him...... or do we have to "officially" do some sort of "repenting?"
 
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Sep 4, 2012
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I haven't heard peter say this either but others think it is what he means.
On the flip side, the same is happening in reverse. Peter is hearing things that they don't intend. They do not mean all that he thinks they mean.

It is happening in both directions.
But I believe the way we view it just depends on exactly what and how He has brought us through our trials to growing maturity.
I don't think so. I think the hyper grace crowd wants it to be perceived that way because they want their doctrine to be normalized, and not branded as heretical.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I don't think so. I think the hyper grace crowd wants it to be perceived that way because they want their doctrine to be normalized, and not branded as heretical.

Thats because you see things only one way.

People just want to be understand what they say, Not slandered or lied about.

Whether you agree with them or not is not even the issue..
 
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Ariel82

Guest
The only way I can think to continue is to just be honest with you all about all that I have been thinkingt he last few days. But I have to start with my OWN death to prideof life in order to do that.

I went through a repeating cycle for many years of trying hard to be good and do what would please God, then failure, then depression. When I would come out of the depression (which was great apathy and sluggishness), I would determine to try again and the cycle would repeat. Each time, the depression was worse than the one before and lasted longer.

My way out of this cycle was to be shown (by Gods grace) what was going on and how He saw it. My attempts to be good and my depressions were a pouting arrogance and pride of life. I was so stuck in this cycle that I never would have stopped but for His grace. In fact, I think suicide may have eventually become more than just a pouting thought at some point if He did not end it.

There are two types of children. When being taught to ride a bike, the one will be fearful and say, don't take your hand away and they will be both exuberant and disappointed when they see that they were doing it alone but that the parent did not keep their promise. The other child, full of pride of life, will push the parents hand away and insist they can do it and needs to crash and burn and bleed and cry to learn the humility to listen to the parents instructions before they take off the next time.

I am NOT the first child. I am the second child. And my pride of life was SO great that I kept getting on the bike and not listening for many years, over and over again.

But just because I am the second child and not the first, does not mean that I will not eventually grow in humility. It just means I need longer and need more cut lips to break me of my pride of life to more humility.

Peter and I, in my opinion, are more like the first child. But when we learn the lesson and learn to humble ourselves to others so we can hear them instead of telling them they are doing it all wrong, when we finally begin to die to our insistence that the other child will NEVER get anywhere and has no hope, we can never, ever be dragged too far back to pride again. Because the final train wreck God allows is too painful for us to ever forget.

This is not to say that the first type of child is very humble. They might have more success in humility in the beginning...it seems so to me anyway, but they become prideful later, thinking, just as the second child does, that they HAVE no pride of life, when they are refusing to humble themselves to the other and bear offenses every bit as much as the first child. BOTH children are looking down on the other. BOTH can't hear the other. And the more they both scream about how humble they are, the more apparent it becomes that they aren't. So you see, they are really not any different. Both are needing to humble themselves to the other even while both are insisting: he hit me first, he started it, it's only fair he apologize, etc.
And it all keeps continuing because NEITHER has been humbled and broken of pride of life yet. If they were broken by the Lord, they would be the one humbling themselves, making themselves lower, bearing the others offensiveness with love, not demanding apologies. They would BE the one pouring out their pride of life for the good of the other.

Ah, but each thinks that to humble themself to the other would be to HARM the other, because it would just let them continue in their pride of arrogance. They CAN'T humble themselves to the other as Jesus commands because to do so would bring about disastrous result. You see, to BEAR the others offenses in humility and quietness would have ill effect on their soul. So they can NOT bear the offenses quietly but need to point them out. So they have only very good intentions in disobeying and refusing to walk in the spirit and put themselves lower than the other to listen and really hear.

If Jesus could not bear the offense of being called a liar or a heretic or insane, with humility and refusal to give an angry defense or demands for apologies, we would be in very big trouble. If we say we follow Him, and we cannot bear offenses like these as He did, we are lyingt o ourselves and others. we are both deceiving AND deceived.
It reminds me of the parable of the prodigal son...the son in the pigpen and the son who stayed home both needed to learn lessons of grace and humility.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Total inability

It is apparent to me emotional perspectives matter. It is almost like if love has opened you up, and your heart starts to sing, you understand the words. To some this is a foreign language, to others it is their life.

I do not think I can bridge that gap. Whether this language defines salvation and walking with Christ I cannot say, but I suspect it is a large part of it.

The antagonism against what I am sharing suggests to me these insights are not just personal fancies, but part of what it means to be in the body of Christ.

I shared these ideas with my house group, and to a person they understood what I meant. That is why this place is full of strangers and friends. To call what I share evil is enough.

I praise the Lord for His blessing of my life, and I trust and pray today He will also bless you, friends and otherwise.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Total Inability

Is it possible that in a sense total inability is true. Unless you find the path, the way, it is impossible to get things right.
And those who have found the way, will seem like aliens if they say they have the light, and you have darkness, because you know you are so right and they are so wrong.

So what guides us, the presence of the light or our convictions of being right?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I believe what should guide us is the truth that is in Christ and in all that He has done for us. As we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus - we will grow up to rely totally on Him for all things.

In our flesh we may think we can do things and we can but they profit nothing as far as God looks on things. The flesh profits nothing - it is the Spirit that brings life. Spiritual truths in Christ will be at constant war with our natural humanistic mindsets. That's why we are admonished to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ and Him alone.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Total Inability

Is it possible that in a sense total inability is true. Unless you find the path, the way, it is impossible to get things right.
And those who have found the way, will seem like aliens if they say they have the light, and you have darkness, because you know you are so right and they are so wrong.

So what guides us, the presence of the light or our convictions of being right?
Those who believe in total inability are totally unable. What I find remarkable and funny (hilarious actually) is the position (held by some) that we are the righteousness of GOD, yet we are unable to work righteousness. The only way such a totally contradictory mindset can be rationalized is through the gnostic dissociation process that divides a person into two separate egos and then rejects (denies the existence of) one of them (total inability) and embraces (identifies with) the other (righteousness of GOD).
 
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Total Inability

Is it possible that in a sense total inability is true. Unless you find the path, the way, it is impossible to get things right.
And those who have found the way, will seem like aliens if they say they have the light, and you have darkness, because you know you are so right and they are so wrong.

So what guides us, the presence of the light or our convictions of being right?
A thought flew through my mind as I was reading your post. I will try to express it clearly...
We (all people) have a tendency toward tyranny in how we approach others. We want people to use the words we prefer instead of thinking about the intent BEHIND their words.

I am a writer, so I love words but, as you said in another place this morning, words have limits, especially when trying to use them to convey emotion and feelings. I have heard people use a word wrongly but I STILL understood what they were trying to say. The most important thing is not what people say sometimes, but what they MEAN to say. I always want to understand what they MEAN to say.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Oh! And I think you are right about total inability unless we find the way!
I think you have come closer to understanding what another MEANS when they say it is impossible except through the Holy Spirit! That until they found this way, this light, they were a complete mess and understood nothing about life!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Who is Peter and Herose talking to about this imaginary "total inability" concept?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Oh! And I think you are right about total inability unless we find the way!
I think you have come closer to understanding what another MEANS when they say it is impossible except through the Holy Spirit! That until they found this way, this light, they were a complete mess and understood nothing about life!

I believe their concept of total inability is that we teach that no one can become holy righteous mature people of God..
(at least that is what I have seen Peter say for days)

If you look at HRFTD's mock, This is what you see from him also.

so it is an imaginary concept they have created, which does not exist (at least the way they are presenting it) based on a false premise of what others are talking about (leading more to what you were saying)
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I believe their concept of total inability is that we teach that no one can become holy righteous mature people of God..
(at least that is what I have seen Peter say for days)

If you look at HRFTD's mock, This is what you see from him also.

so it is an imaginary concept they have created, which does not exist (at least the way they are presenting it) based on a false premise of what others are talking about (leading more to what you were saying)
I think peter wants to talk about something he is trying to understand. He is wanting to have discourse about something that others seem to him to be saying that he doesn't understand what they are trying to convey. I think his motive in wanting to talk about it is to talk it through with others to understand what they MEAN when they say that they can do no good without Christ.