Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam

[PeterJens]

Conclusion

If we have total ability to walk in righteousness as defined by the Spirit of God, what happens if we do not, ie continue to sin.

We loose salvation. My answer to the question immediately is our faith covers us until the burden of failure is so great we loose faith as well.

The reason total ability becomes relevant then this is the statement of witness of Gods people to the rest of the world, and a spur to help those stumbling to work through their issues.

To be honest this would be the first time other than HRFTD and me agree on total ability that we are not shot to pieces by those who say, are you sinless now. I am glad EG believes we can walk righteously, not sin, today, as a no sin day, if he walk in the Spirit. But also not in a hyper-legalist way but is a biblical God way.

I have to put these definitions in because the same words are used in different ways by people here.

So Amen, welcome brother EG. I never thought you would come to be in agreement with us.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

A small comment

"Everyone else says the same thing."

Too many times this is exactly 100% not true. You only find out what people believe
by going through the points and then seeing how they respond.

Now Ben from his writing 100% disagrees.

BenFTW Re: The Holy Spirit convicts of sin #308


"As has been said in the past, if anyone here has found out the secret to living sinless in the here and now, ever single Christian here is all ears. They want to be set free from sin, they want to walk in complete victory. To live a year without sin, or even a month (some would argue a day) would be amazing. If someone here is walking sinless, every moment of every single day in their own actions, thoughts, and deeds, they have a moral obligation to share their secret. Unfortunately, those that think they do are walking in denial."

Many calvanists would also disagree as it is part of the doctrine of faith.

Now I am happy when people declare their personal position, or state anothers declared position.

I don't know how I missed this post from ben!!
This was what I desired to talk about earlier but it was necessary to go the way our Lord was leading us instead. And it has become a great blessing to go the direction He led. At least for me. Big blessing, lot's of learning for me.

I wanted to talk about, and we know that IF we abide in Him, we do not sin.
So the ONLY question that even matters to me is how do I keep abiding?? What's abiding?? I want very much not to sin and if abiding in Him is the way to that, I'm going to search into this! When I abide, I do not sin. When I stop abiding, I sin...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I think we need ariel or EG. They are good at looking things up in a concordance. I have dyslexia so it gets confusing to me with all the numbers and...idk, just confusing.

 

[Grace777x70]

I THINK I have not confused righteousness with holiness...
They both come by faith, the one immediately, the one a process.
I do make a distinction in my mind between them.
The first one, righteousness, He gives to me to do away with my fear of death.
The second one then begins to be able to come about BECAUSE of this great mercy.

I might view righteousness a little differently than you...

I agree that we are righteous and we will never be more righteous then we are right now. Like you - He has taken away the fear of death!

We are also holy too because Jesus is also our sanctification just like He is our righteousness. We are having our minds renewed to walk out the holiness that is inside our new creation in Christ as well we will see "fruits" of righteousness also come out.

When we die - we will be as holy and righteous as Jesus is and God does not have to do a "quick work" to make us heaven ready. We are ready for heaven now in our new creation in Christ. The battle is in our minds that wars against the knowledge of what Christ has done for us. It's in the working out what already is - inside the inner man in Christ - to reflect His life in this world.

I love that we are safe in Him in this life and in the one to come too!...


Ephesians 4:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

 

[Grandpa]

I don't know how I missed this post from ben!!
This was what I desired to talk about earlier but it was necessary to go the way our Lord was leading us instead. And it has become a great blessing to go the direction He led. At least for me. Big blessing, lot's of learning for me.

I wanted to talk about, and we know that IF we abide in Him, we do not sin.
So the ONLY question that even matters to me is how do I keep abiding?? What's abiding?? I want very much not to sin and if abiding in Him is the way to that, I'm going to search into this! When I abide, I do not sin. When I stop abiding, I sin...

Abiding is having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and not your own righteousness.

The funny thing about this subject of righteousness is that if you are abiding in Christ you are righteous. But as soon as you tell someone that you are walking righteously and you give reasons why, then you aren't.

Its like boasting of your humility. You may have been humble. But as soon as you tell someone how humble you are you no longer are.

And humility is probably the main ingredient of righteousness and abiding in Christ. Humility doesn't claim Righteousness. Humility says "Be merciful to me Lord, a sinner".

You can help people understand their righteousness in the Lord Jesus by showing them in the bible. But if you tell someone that you are walking righteously you have lost your humility, and your credibility. What you can say is that you are doing your best and you are doing much better than last year, thank the Lord for His Help and Grace and Mercy.

 

[Ariel82]

Abiding is having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and not your own righteousness.

The funny thing about this subject of righteousness is that if you are abiding in Christ you are righteous. But as soon as you tell someone that you are walking righteously and you give reasons why, then you aren't.

Its like boasting of your humility. You may have been humble. But as soon as you tell someone how humble you are you no longer are.

And humility is probably the main ingredient of righteousness and abiding in Christ. Humility doesn't claim Righteousness. Humility says "Be merciful to me Lord, a sinner".

You can help people understand their righteousness in the Lord Jesus by showing them in the bible. But if you tell someone that you are walking righteously you have lost your humility, and your credibility. What you can say is that you are doing your best and you are doing much better than last year, thank the Lord for His Help and Grace and Mercy.

I don't agree with this. If God says you are righteous, then stating it doesn't make you less so.

If you are humble, you can say you are humble without boasting,

It becomes wrong when you say your are MORE righteous or humble than another person and begin judging others,

Or if you have a false sense of who you are in Christ.

Jesus says it's better to take the lowest place seating at a feast and be moved up then sit too high and have to be moved down.

 

[Ariel82]

I think we need ariel or EG. They are good at looking things up in a concordance. I have dyslexia so it gets confusing to me with all the numbers and...idk, just confusing.

Lol what do you want me to look up, verses on abiding?

 

[Ariel82]

Conclusion

If we have total ability to walk in righteousness as defined by the Spirit of God, what happens if we do not, ie continue to sin.

We loose salvation. My answer to the question immediately is our faith covers us until the burden of failure is so great we loose faith as well.

The reason total ability becomes relevant then this is the statement of witness of Gods people to the rest of the world, and a spur to help those stumbling to work through their issues.

To be honest this would be the first time other than HRFTD and me agree on total ability that we are not shot to pieces by those who say, are you sinless now. I am glad EG believes we can walk righteously, not sin, today, as a no sin day, if he walk in the Spirit. But also not in a hyper-legalist way but is a biblical God way.

I have to put these definitions in because the same words are used in different ways by people here.

So Amen, welcome brother EG. I never thought you would come to be in agreement with us.

(face palm)
Sorry at a lost for words...

Lol EG just wanted to say I love you man, would you like to go out for coffee and cake?

 

[Grandpa]

Jesus says it's better to take the lowest place seating at a feast and be moved up then sit too high and have to be moved down.

Yep. That was my whole point.

If you can say it to other people then you can say it to the Lord.

If you can't say it to the Lord then you have no business saying it to other people.


Can you tell the Lord that you are righteous because you obey the law? Can anyone?

I suppose they might say it, but would it be true?


It would be better to just take the lower seat and have the Lord tell you that you are righteous instead of the other way around.

The Lord talks about this too... Lord Lord haven't we done all these things in your name... etc...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I wanted the greek word for abide/abiding, thank you very much!

Hi grandpa.
Yes, I see what you are saying.
Whenever I heard a conversation in the past on abiding and not sinning, and they have been very few, if someone was trying to understand the verse and saying it WAS possible because God said so, it would eventually come down to a vicious attack on the person seeking to study and talk about it, with cries of :ARE YOU SAYING YOU ARE SINLESS?? from 50 directions.

I waited for the person being attacked to say what I thought they would but they never said what I thought they would...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I wanted the greek word for abide/abiding, thank you very much!

Hi grandpa.
Yes, I see what you are saying.
Whenever I heard a conversation in the past on abiding and not sinning, and they have been very few, if someone was trying to understand the verse and saying it WAS possible because God said so, it would eventually come down to a vicious attack on the person seeking to study and talk about it, with cries of :ARE YOU SAYING YOU ARE SINLESS?? from 50 directions.

I waited for the person being attacked to say what I thought they would but they never said what I thought they would...

John 6:56
He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

Here are a few, I have more if you need, as long as I am home, do not have access to all of these at work.

ΜΕΝ́Ω, Ion. impf. μένεσκον: Ion. f. μενέω, Att. μενῶ: aor. I ἔμεινα: pf. μεμένηκα:—Lat. maneo, to stay stand fast, abide, in battle, Hom., Aesch.; μ. κατὰ χώραν, of soldiers, Thuc.
2. to stay at home, stay where one is, not stir, Il.; μ. εἴσω δόμων Aesch.; κατʼ οἶκον Eur., etc.:—but, μ. ἀπό τινος to stay away from, Il.
3. to stay, tarry, Hom., etc.
4. of things, to be lasting, remain, last, stand, στήλη μένει ἔμπεδον Il., etc.
5. of condition, to remain as one was, of a maiden, Il.; ἢ μείνωσιν ὅρκοι if oaths hold good, Eur.; μ. ἐπὶ τούτων to remain contented with . ., Dem.
6. to abide by an opinion, conviction, etc., ἐπὶ τῷ ἀληθεῖ Plat.
7. impers. c. inf., it remains for one to do, ἀνθρώποισι κατθανεῖν μένει Eur.



Liddell, H. G. (1996). A lexicon: Abridged from Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English lexicon (p. 498). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.



68.11 μένωd; διαμένωb; ἐπιμένωb; προσμένωb; ἐμμένωb; παραμένωb: to continue in an activity or state—‘to continue, to remain in, to keep on.’
μένωd: μὴ μένων ἐν τῇ διδαχῇ τοῦ Χριστοῦ ‘one not remaining in the teaching of Christ’ 2 Jn 9; ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν ἀδελφὸν αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ φωτὶ μένει ‘he who loves his fellow believer remains in the light’ 1 Jn 2:10.
διαμένωb: αὐτὸς ἦν διανεύων αὐτοῖς, καὶ διέμενεν κωφός ‘he made signs to them and remained unable to speak’ or ‘… remained dumb’ Lk 1:22.
ἐπιμένωb: ὡς δὲ ἐπέμενον ἐρωτῶντες αὐτόν, ἀνέκυψεν καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ‘when they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and spoke to them’ Jn 8:7. It is also possible to understand ἐπιμένω in Jn 8:7 as continuing in a place (see ἐπιμένωa, 85.55), and therefore one may translate ‘as they stood there.’
προσμένωb: προσμένει ταῖς δεήσεσιν καὶ ταῖς προσευχαῖς νυκτὸς καὶ ἡμέρας ‘she continues in prayer and supplications day and night’ 1 Tm 5:5. It is possible that προσμένωb differs from ἐπιμένωb in focusing upon the continuity or extent of time involved.
ἐμμένωb: ὅτι αὐτοὶ οὐκ ἐνέμειναν ἐν τῇ διαθήκῃ μου ‘because they did not continue in my covenant’ He 8:9. In He 8:9 the implication of ‘to continue in a covenant’ is to adhere to the articles or stipulations of a covenant. Accordingly, one may render He 8:9 as ‘because they did not remain faithful to my covenant.’ In Ac 14:22 (παρακαλοῦντες ἐμμένειν τῇ πίστει ‘encourage them to remain true to the faith’), it is also possible to translate the expression ‘to remain true to the faith’ as ‘to continue to believe.’
παραμένωb: γεγονότες ἱερεῖς διὰ τὸ θανάτῳ κωλύεσθαι παραμένειν ‘because they were hindered by death from continuing their work as priests’ He 7:23.



Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 655). New York: United Bible Societies.

remember in context. Whoever believes in me HAS eternal life, will never die, lives forever, and will be raised on the last day.

The context then would be whoever eats his flesh and blood ( has true saving faith in Christ) Abides in him forever.


we also have john in his first epistle

Most other aspects or verses of ABIDING have to do with fruit bearing.. If you abide (remain or continue in me) You will produce fruit etc etc.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Ah, that's what I was looking for.
And the other verse says, IF we abide in Him, we do not sin.
I know I sin sometimes. Because He is merciful to show me. Then He is merciful to give me the way out somehow. Not sure I could explain what transpires there...I agree with Him that it's sin in my heart and...it just stops. OR I refuse to listen for a bit and become miserable. And the next time I feel it popping up, if I seem to not be able to get a handle on it, I call Him - help, my feet are slipping, please have mercy on me and see my distress...and it stops. Whether it was resentment trying to push out love and peace or...whatever it was.

When I refuse to listen, I think at that point I have stopped abiding. I have stopped remaining in Him. If I just decide, even after He's shown me resentment is a sin, to sink down into that and take a big bite, I'm doing it willfully.

But if I try to get a grip and find that I can't and cry to Him, I think I'm still abiding.

 

[PeterJens]

Ah, that's what I was looking for.
And the other verse says, IF we abide in Him, we do not sin.
I know I sin sometimes.

From a teenager it is obvious though people say, oh I sin so much, this is an emotional state of saying, I am not worthy, which is very different from sin. It is not difficult to go through a day without doing any sin. But then maybe one issue will catch you out, or you think so.

Now you said something that is revealing. I do not want to go through a list of sins etc. And you are right that is the wrong way round. You do not learn about healthy living by studying ill people but well people. Sin is the disease of failure, so studying failure will mean you know how to fail spectacularly well.

So the real question is how do you love people? Not superficially, but deeply, like a best friend, a parent, someone who has their best interests at heart. And the key is the more you do the good things, the less you will notice any disease of the heart.

So how do I love another. For me it is to listen and learn what their heart beats for, when they have an up day and a down day. Looking to see where their talents are and encourage them with a word here or there, and see how it grows.

Being sensitive to how they are coping, positively and negatively. Random acts of kindness, and being reliable and open, sharing your life as much as they share theirs. Molding how you behave to what they can cope with.

In these things Jesus abides.

 

[PeterJens]

A gift of value.

The hospice movement was founded on the principle that dieing should be like being born. You are a precious gift to those you have known should be respected for your contribution to life. Too easily the concept, a waste of space is put forward, but that is not true, though so many suffer this.

Imagine how many lonely people, knocked by life, in a relationship that went wrong, now by themselves. A gift of value is just giving space and value to them in what they can bring and contribute. Jesus came and spent time with us. He listens to our worries and moans, our ups and downs, and blesses us. So equally giving space to others, to give them value, by just acknowledging their contribution to the world and that you will share some time with them.

If you begin to think how long it gets to get to know someone, you know how bad it is when all the people you know go away, and no one knows you, or can even say where you are. Without God that loneliness is mind numbing. But Jesus is there when you reach out and give them value, value to the valueless, love without reward, a thought in the dark, from the King of light, a beacon when they thought all else had gone out.

 

[PeterJens]

Religious language

I am amazed at the lengths people go in language to talk about one word. Yet something like love, how to reach out to a hurting person, how to know God meeting you in times of desperation, to go into suicidal depression, yet find God leading you out, to have worry that makes you psychologically ill, yet learning to handle emotions makes you free.

Is Jesus the shore we hide in because the world is too rough, or is Jesus the source of the river of life that we can bring to the world to calm the storms and heal the wounds of a lost world? Jesus is both of these things, but for some the emptiness within has never been filled so everything is words of insecurity and defense, because the fear of loosing everything from their childhood is just too great.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

From a teenager it is obvious though people say, oh I sin so much, this is an emotional state of saying, I am not worthy, which is very different from sin. It is not difficult to go through a day without doing any sin. But then maybe one issue will catch you out, or you think so.

Now you said something that is revealing. I do not want to go through a list of sins etc. And you are right that is the wrong way round. You do not learn about healthy living by studying ill people but well people. Sin is the disease of failure, so studying failure will mean you know how to fail spectacularly well.

So the real question is how do you love people? Not superficially, but deeply, like a best friend, a parent, someone who has their best interests at heart. And the key is the more you do the good things, the less you will notice any disease of the heart.

So how do I love another. For me it is to listen and learn what their heart beats for, when they have an up day and a down day. Looking to see where their talents are and encourage them with a word here or there, and see how it grows.

Being sensitive to how they are coping, positively and negatively. Random acts of kindness, and being reliable and open, sharing your life as much as they share theirs. Molding how you behave to what they can cope with.

In these things Jesus abides.

There is no law against any of these things you list. They are caring and polite.
But as you said yesterday, aspirations become harder in the doing than in the talking because there are angry wives and disobedient children and you can't just abandon them to keep from ever getting angry or resentful. And if you are angry and resentful, you are not loving them. There is no room for Jesus' love in your heart to show through your resentment during that time.