Dispensationalism
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E
Why don't you ask a person what they believe.. Instead of posting a copy and past from an anti dispensation web sight, and thinking it is gospel truth..
Have a good sleep. I will be gone for a week, Going to michigan to enjoy a week on the water..
But for everyone else. Don;t take people words as gospel. Aske someone first. That is where these hated arguments come in People assume things which are not true.
A dispensation is not a time period, rather revealed truth to follow. As human history continued, God revealed to man exactly what man needed. Man's responsibility has always been to believe that truth and act upon it. The truth behind the death, burial and resurrection was not revealed until after it happened. Then and only then did the Lord start to open up minds to understand what He came to do. The life of Jesus and how He died is revealed in the four gospels, but the why He died is revealed through the Apostle Paul in his thirteen epistles. These thirteen epistles contain the majority of doctrine for the church, the body of Christ.
Simple point. If you want to see something read both sides of the argument.
You will find hurt and pain in both camps. Few have hate, most are just discouraged or
encouraged by their new inspiration.
The problem is often both sides have some good points. It is like taking a lesson
in school, until you finish the course you could get the wrong impression.
The beauty in in the journey, which makes one humbler everytime you travel.
If people think their opponents only hate have some personal issues of their own.
It is why Jesus called us to love our enemies so we understand them that they are
99% the same as us. The 1% matters but it is very close, always, worryingly,
but for the grace of God go we.
You will find hurt and pain in both camps. Few have hate, most are just discouraged or
encouraged by their new inspiration.
The problem is often both sides have some good points. It is like taking a lesson
in school, until you finish the course you could get the wrong impression.
The beauty in in the journey, which makes one humbler everytime you travel.
If people think their opponents only hate have some personal issues of their own.
It is why Jesus called us to love our enemies so we understand them that they are
99% the same as us. The 1% matters but it is very close, always, worryingly,
but for the grace of God go we.
E
But make sure you ask the other side what they believe, or you may not get the picture.. Yes we need to look at both sides. But by asking each person why they believe that way and what they believe.
Otherwise you risk bearing false witness against the other, and destroying any means of any real conversation.
Otherwise you risk bearing false witness against the other, and destroying any means of any real conversation.
My experience is some people just want to criticise and not disclose. Probably they do not really know how to, or they are worried their disclosure will make them too vulnerable.
I have an advantage, I know what I believe and why and will work it through from beginning to end.
If you regard this as a battle and sharing is risky, you might have to change, it means you do not share much.
I would encourage everyone. Jesus from an early age debated with the teachers of the law. It is always surprising what you agree on and what you disagree on. So it is best to put you ideas out there. And do not take it personally, they are just ideas. Invent some crazy ones and see what happens.
This is a skill and also something that we grow through. It is a little like love, until you risk it, you do not know it is real.
I have an advantage, I know what I believe and why and will work it through from beginning to end.
If you regard this as a battle and sharing is risky, you might have to change, it means you do not share much.
I would encourage everyone. Jesus from an early age debated with the teachers of the law. It is always surprising what you agree on and what you disagree on. So it is best to put you ideas out there. And do not take it personally, they are just ideas. Invent some crazy ones and see what happens.
This is a skill and also something that we grow through. It is a little like love, until you risk it, you do not know it is real.
E
Again, You want to know what someone believes, ask that person. Stop assuming you know what they believe, You especially, because you have a major habit of claiming people believe things which are not true.
It is a najor sign of humility to ask what a person believes, and not think you know..
I do not know everyhting you believe, and would never be to proud to think I did.
Dear reader, the particular person here is very bad at saying either what he believes or being
honest about others.
He claims to speak on behalf of others, tells the target that everyone is this or that and they
are the lightening rod of revelation.
If you reflect back his position he gets insulted, offended and calls you a liar.
It is just total warfare, (removed), and always he is right and you are smuch.
Now one occasion ok, but all the time, no chance.
please lets not make this personal thank you
honest about others.
He claims to speak on behalf of others, tells the target that everyone is this or that and they
are the lightening rod of revelation.
If you reflect back his position he gets insulted, offended and calls you a liar.
It is just total warfare, (removed), and always he is right and you are smuch.
Now one occasion ok, but all the time, no chance.
please lets not make this personal thank you
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E
Peter if you have something to say to me say it, Stop hiding behind words.
and you are reported again, you do not call people mentally ill..
The mere fact ALL I was saying is go to a person. do not just assume you know what a person who has a different belief, should be the guide for all of us, It is not directed just to you. And the fact you think otherwise, Well.. Thats just sad.
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You, my friend, are a dispensationalist whether you agree or not. God gave direction to Noah. Is that the same direction for the believer today? God gave direction to Moses. Is that the same direction given today? God gave specific direction to Jonah. Are you to literally go to Nineveh and cry against it, "yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown"?
Does Rom. 7:1-6 prove that "Christian obedience to law" = "spiritual adultery on our Lord" ?
If YES, then you have MUCH to explain!
I set forth 10 detailed reasons disconfirming dispensationalism (and which also disconfirm your position).
Will you engage these reasons?
If not, your view remains undefended.
AND, you have the "spiritual adultery" concept completely backwards.
Spiritual adultery (Heb. "zanah", Ex. 34:15-16) refers to those who turn AWAY from YHVH and then they obey the ways of other false gods.
Spiritual adultery is NOT obedience to God's commands!
Paul says we should KEEP God's comands (1 Cor. 7:19), NOT pretend they are "spiritual adultery"!
Please engage my position....lest your position remain undefended.
blessings...
BibleGuy
I like to do what Paul says to do in these types of discussions with the law and law-keepers that come in after the gospel of the grace of Christ has been preached.
Titus 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
I don't like the aspect of going back to the law when it is committing spiritual adultery on our Lord. Romans 7:1-6.
The law of love and the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is all that I need now to walk by the Spirit within me just as Paul says. I don't need to "obey" Lev. 18:23 to know not to have intercourse with animals.
This picture says it all.
View attachment 153177
You don't know how to defend your position against the Biblical evidence regarding the true meaning of "zanah".
You REFUSE to engage the evidence that Paul took a vow (Ac. 21) for the purpose of proving he walked orderly in obedience to the law, including the infant circumcision law.
You don't explain why we should accept your position, when your interpretation of Romans is immediately disconfirmed by the following:
1. Paul taught that we should not sin (Rom. 6:15)
2. Paul taught that sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7)
3. Paul taught that we should not disobey Torah (from 1 and 2)
4. Paul taught that we should obey Torah (from 3).
We should imitate Paul's Torah-teaching and Torah-obedience (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9). Instead, you pretend we should ignore Paul's pattern of Torah-obedience which he set for us...claiming (wrongly) that our discussion is foolish.
Why imply our discussion is worthless?
Jesus said our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching DETERMINES our position in the coming kingdom....(Mt. 5:19)
Is it worthless to teach what Jesus taught?
Jesus said that His PRE-CROSS teachings should be taught to all disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:20).
Is it worthless to obey this Great Commission?
Jesus sent forth TORAH-TEACHERS (Gr. "grammateus", Mt. 23:34) to properly represent His Torah-obedient ministry.
Is it worthless to emphasize the Torah-obedient nature of teachers directly authorized by the Messiah?
I set forth this brief rebuttal to your viewpoint for the benefit of others readers, that they might be edified in knowledge and truth.
You wrote: " I don't need to "obey" Lev. 18:23 to know not to have intercourse with animals."
My response: Great! But that's no excuse to ignore the Biblical evidence which disconfirms your position
BibleGuy
EG has a problem against me. He wants to escalate everything he can. I have experience of mentally ill people, and he is doing exactly that. One word is enough to set him off. He will rant for pages.
I have asked him about it. All he can say is I said he believed behaviour does not matter for salvation.
The subtle difference is simply once saved you can never loose it no matter how you behave. So behaviour does not matter for salvation. Now he will flip that behaviour does matter because following God is about behaviour etc.
Ofcourse that is true, but in reality once you say you are saved anyway, it is a personal choice. He calls this slander and a lie. Difficult to see how stating the obvious consequence of a belief is a slander and a lie.
The truth is he is happy to hold two contradictatory ideas in his head and say they work, when they do not.
That is why I call him nuts. How can I be evil pointing this obvious problem out.
It is so bad some have mystic conferences and are prepared to behave literally how they like.
Now if I get offended or angry or respond badly then obviously I am the most evil person in the world.
This is why it makes me laugh and puts him in a no win situation.
He says I need to repent and accept salvation for future sins, so all my sins are forgiven, and that is the gospel, which I am trampling on saying righteousness, purity and holiness matter and they are salvation and kingdom issues.
So this particular problem is foundational to a belief system, but not lying or slander or insult.
That is just manufactured. Hope this helps clarify where we are. I 100% understand he is blind to his own contradiction.
I have asked him about it. All he can say is I said he believed behaviour does not matter for salvation.
The subtle difference is simply once saved you can never loose it no matter how you behave. So behaviour does not matter for salvation. Now he will flip that behaviour does matter because following God is about behaviour etc.
Ofcourse that is true, but in reality once you say you are saved anyway, it is a personal choice. He calls this slander and a lie. Difficult to see how stating the obvious consequence of a belief is a slander and a lie.
The truth is he is happy to hold two contradictatory ideas in his head and say they work, when they do not.
That is why I call him nuts. How can I be evil pointing this obvious problem out.
It is so bad some have mystic conferences and are prepared to behave literally how they like.
Now if I get offended or angry or respond badly then obviously I am the most evil person in the world.
This is why it makes me laugh and puts him in a no win situation.
He says I need to repent and accept salvation for future sins, so all my sins are forgiven, and that is the gospel, which I am trampling on saying righteousness, purity and holiness matter and they are salvation and kingdom issues.
So this particular problem is foundational to a belief system, but not lying or slander or insult.
That is just manufactured. Hope this helps clarify where we are. I 100% understand he is blind to his own contradiction.
Hello JGIG,
You wrote: "Dispensationalism's main flaw is that they teach that the Law will come back in full force - sacrifices and everything."
My response: The Prophets PROMISE that sacrifices will return!
Remember?
Jesus comes to RESTORE the covenant with Levi so that offerings will be pleasing to YHVH as in the days of old, as in former years (Mal. 3:1-4).
Why would you oppose this Levitical sacrifice restoration purpose of our Messiah?
The Davidic Covenant will be fulfilled WITH Levitical activities restored (Jer. 33).
Representatives from all nations MUST come to celebrate the sacrifice-laden feast of SUKKOT (in the future), or else they will be punished (Zec. 14).
Isaiah promises that Levitical sacrifices will be restored (Is. 66).
Ezekiel promises that Levitical sacrifices will be restored (Eze. 40-47).
Moses GUARANTEES 100% obedience to all Torah (so that includes sacrifices!), again in the future, as we repent and turn to YHVH and return to inherit the promised land (Dt. 30:1-8).
The land-promise will be fulfilled (Dt. 6:10) in conjunction with obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).
CONCLUSION: Why do you oppose these not-yet-fulfilled prophecies?
Your position requires defense against these objections, or revision to account for them.
Are you now willing to engage this evidence?
blessings...
BibleGuy
Interesting idea, about the sacrifices returning. But what purpose do they serve if they were the symbol pointing towards Jesus's sacrifice on the cross, which is now once for all.
Sacrifices of the heart are equally as valid. The heavenly temple where God dwells, offerings are made as symbols of praise and adoration to the King.
The problem with prophecy is it could be figuratively and still hold the same meaning.
Like the church could be the true inheritors of the promises to Gods nation, into whom we have been grafted.
I suppose for me does it matter, as we have no influence on these outcomes.
Sacrifices of the heart are equally as valid. The heavenly temple where God dwells, offerings are made as symbols of praise and adoration to the King.
The problem with prophecy is it could be figuratively and still hold the same meaning.
Like the church could be the true inheritors of the promises to Gods nation, into whom we have been grafted.
I suppose for me does it matter, as we have no influence on these outcomes.
Hello PeterJens,
You wrote: "Interesting idea, about the sacrifices returning. But what purpose do they serve if they were the symbol pointing towards Jesus's sacrifice on the cross, which is now once for all."
My response: Yes...Jesus' sacrifice is once-for-all....but NOT a once-for-all replacement of the Levitical sacrifices which He comes to restore (Mal. 3:1-4) in the temple He comes to rebuild (Zec. 6).
So, what's the purpose?
Well, sacrifices (in the past) pointed FORWARD to the need for Messiah's permanent sacrifice.
And, sacrifices (in the future) can point BACK to the need for Messiah's permanent sacrifice.
Remember, Paul PARTICIPATED (Ac. 21) in a Torah-vow which required sacrificial activity. So even PAUL participated in sacrificial activity as appropriate. We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9) and likewise participate, as appropriate.
Of course, we can't do that right now....but the prophets PROMISE we will do that in the future.
Furthermore, many priests became believers (Ac. 6:7). There again! PRIESTS were BELIEVERS! It's GOOD to be a Levitical priest who obeys sacrificial Torah just as YHVH (and the Messiah) require.
And you are right, there is also a symbolic element to priesthood (1 Pe. 2:5), but this is not a replacement of Levitical sacrifices, but merely a spiritual analogy.
THE POINT: Sacrifices will (and should) return in the future, just as the Prophets have prophesied.
Everyone needs to incorporate this fact into their perspective.
blessings...
BibleGuy
I tried to copy here an article I wrote elsewhere about the Ezekiel passage, but it was a bit long. Here's the link:
I think you'll find that article and the links at the end to give you some food for thought
.
It was written over five years ago, so some of the links may not work now, but a few of the key ones that I checked do.
-JGIG
I think you'll find that article and the links at the end to give you some food for thought
.It was written over five years ago, so some of the links may not work now, but a few of the key ones that I checked do.
-JGIG
But the sacrifices God requires in the New Covenant are sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving from His Living Body, not dead animals on an altar. Also, the commemoration of the Sacrifice of Christ was given by Christ Himself - at the Last Supper. We commemorate - remember - His Work in the bread and the wine, not by offering sacrifices at an altar.
And since Christ's Priesthood is in eternal effect by an oath from God, the Old Covenant Priesthood is not coming back to officiate over sacrifices offered on an altar in a rebuilt temple. If man decides to do it anyway, it will not be sanctioned by God and will be an abomination and insult to the Work and High Priesthood of Christ, putting Him to shame.
No, any animal sacrifices are out, in light of the High Priesthood of Christ, Who is the ONLY Priest/Priesthood recognized by God in the New Covenant and Who is not legally able to oversee animal sacrifices required by the Law. Again, the Old Covenant is NOT coming back - Christ's Priesthood is PERMANENT by a OATH from God.
Couple that with NO animal sacrificial system in the New Covenant and you can see where I don't see how the Dispensational model is workable when considering the Permanent, Perfect High Priesthood of Christ (not to mention His once-for-all, for-all-time sacrifice).
The letter to the Hebrews is extremely clear on these points
.-JGIG
Not sure how I made it personal. The claimed insult is a statement of how belief works out.
If you say you believe it, it means the next logical step. That is not personal other than people drive cars and some cars can go faster than others. It is personal for him because he says I am a bad person etc. Now that is personal.
But this is why it is nuts, it means nothing other than he is upset. Ok how can I help him not be upset?
Go away? Now that would be called holding a grudge, attacking another member etc. Plain and simple.
If you say you believe it, it means the next logical step. That is not personal other than people drive cars and some cars can go faster than others. It is personal for him because he says I am a bad person etc. Now that is personal.
But this is why it is nuts, it means nothing other than he is upset. Ok how can I help him not be upset?
Go away? Now that would be called holding a grudge, attacking another member etc. Plain and simple.
Nope.... I mean exactly what I say.
I like to do what Paul says to do in these types of discussions with the law and law-keepers that come in after the gospel of the grace of Christ has been preached to pervert the true gospel.
Titus 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
I don't like the aspect of going back to the law when it is committing spiritual adultery on our Lord. Romans 7:1-6.
The law of love and the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is all that I need now to walk by the Spirit within me just as Paul says. I don't need to "obey" Lev. 18:23 to know not to have intercourse with animals as I am pretty sure the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus would cover that.....
.This picture says it all...
