Mysticism & righteousness

[TonyJay]

Sorry for upsetting you. This is my defintion of how I use the word grace. Language is about the meaning you put on words. It is not a set of laws etc. You obviously do not like what I am sharing. I suggest you repent and seek Gods face.

It is not any clearer than I have shared.

Actually I am not upset.

However I do not believe that you have the authority make up new definitions of words.
That is why I suggested that you check the meaning of grace in the dictionary.

To have grace extended to one means: unmerited and unconditional favour.
Grace can neither be earned nor can it be withdrawn otherwise it is not grace.

Your footnote is absolutely and entirely contradictory to what you are proclaiming.
What you you are proclaiming is a conditional salvation based on works.

You have thousands of posts on this forum but seem not to understand fundamental theological precepts.
(BTW one does not have to accept them to understand what they mean.)

In your case you are apparently extending grace in Christ Jesus but you absolutely reject it!!

 

[PeterJens]

Here is the lying, the turning of a faith into something different

In the Old - you "did in order to get" In the New Covenant " you believe in order to receive" what Christ has already done. It's called the "word of faith" and it's enacted by speaking.

We love God because of who He is. He demonstrated his nature by loving Israel even when they rebelled and did evil.
In Christ we no longer need to become Jews to know God, we have access directly. Jesus is God, the very embodiment of God made man. No bigger statement of friendship to mankind can God make.

If we accept God, when it is clearly declared then love can flow from our hearts in response, a living stream out to others all around as a testimony to who is our Lord. That is what it means to be saved.

The only difference between the old and new covenants are the means of access. Christ tore the curtain in two.
The holy of holies is now accessible through Christ. In Him we can be overcomers in life if you trust and work it through.

 

[TonyJay]

Here is the lying, the turning of a faith into something different

In the Old - you "did in order to get" In the New Covenant " you believe in order to receive" what Christ has already done. It's called the "word of faith" and it's enacted by speaking.

We love God because of who He is. He demonstrated his nature by loving Israel even when they rebelled and did evil.
In Christ we no longer need to become Jews to know God, we have access directly. Jesus is God, the very embodiment of God made man. No bigger statement of friendship to mankind can God make.

If we accept God, when it is clearly declared then love can flow from our hearts in response, a living stream out to others all around as a testimony to who is our Lord. That is what it means to be saved.

The only difference between the old and new covenants are the means of access. Christ tore the curtain in two.
The holy of holies is now accessible through Christ. In Him we can be overcomers in life if you trust and work it through.

Was Abraham a Jew?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Mysticism can manifest itself in various ways. Two of the ways that I've noticed are 1) doctrine is marginalized for the sake of emotional/metaphysical experience, and 2) knowing GOD is exalted over practical holiness and doing righteousness.

Two problems. The bible says that those who go beyond the doctrine of Christ don't have GOD, and knowing GOD is doing his righteousness (commandments).

So mystic-type doctrines can easily lead a person astray because they are not anchored to the truth, but to subjective experience.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yep...believing in Christ is the gospel. I know it's a radical thought and it conflicts with us doing our own righteous deeds for righteousness.

I'll just let those "mystical" scriptures speak about the wondrous gospel of the grace of Christ. We really do have a great salvation in Him. He can be trusted and He is always faithful to us!.....We have a good, good, loving Father!

 

[PeterJens]

Actually I am not upset.

However I do not believe that you have the authority make up new definitions of words.
That is why I suggested that you check the meaning of grace in the dictionary.

To have grace extended to one means: unmerited and unconditional favour.
Grace can neither be earned nor can it be withdrawn otherwise it is not grace.

Your footnote is absolutely and entirely contradictory to what you are proclaiming.
What you you are proclaiming is a conditional salvation based on works.

You have thousands of posts on this forum but seem not to understand fundamental theological precepts.
(BTW one does not have to accept them to understand what they mean.)

In your case you are apparently extending grace in Christ Jesus but you absolutely reject it!!

I understand your position, but you are wrong. Christ is God showing Himself freely to us and saying come follow me.
If you do not follow, you are lost.

You want to create a construct of free salvation and works salvation that do not work. Do you say a plant is alive or dead because it is planted in soil by a gardener. No it is alive or dead based on that it turns from a seed into a plant. No plant, just seed, it is dead.

It is stupid to use language that does not fit this obvious connection Jesus and the apostles are making.
If I am a living working plant, I am in the kingdom, alive in the relationship with God. If the plant dies, I am lost, out of the Kingdom, am no more saved. End of story.

You guys want to condemn people for understanding gardening and the Kingdom. You obviously do not.

Am I qualified? God thinks so, so that is good enough for me. Hallelujah, and Praise the Lord He has saved me from my sins and put me in the highest place as a friend alongside Him. What a King, what a gift of grace.

 

[Ugly]

Sorry for upsetting you. This is my defintion of how I use the word grace. Language is about the meaning you put on words. It is not a set of laws etc. You obviously do not like what I am sharing. I suggest you repent and seek Gods face.

It is not any clearer than I have shared.

Then what are dictionaries? Words have specific meaning applied to them. When everyone gets to make up their own meanings to words how can communication be clear? That's just suiting things to fit you, instead of learning how to correctly and effectively communicate in ways others can understand.

 

[Grace777x70]

I understand your position, but you are wrong. Christ is God showing Himself freely to us and saying come follow me.
If you do not follow, you are lost.

You want to create a construct of free salvation and works salvation that do not work. Do you say a plant is alive or dead because it is planted in soil by a gardener. No it is alive or dead based on that it turns from a seed into a plant. No plant, just seed, it is dead.

It is stupid to use language that does not fit this obvious connection Jesus and the apostles are making.
If I am a living working plant, I am in the kingdom, alive in the relationship with God. If the plant dies, I am lost, out of the Kingdom, am no more saved. End of story.

You guys want to condemn people for understanding gardening and the Kingdom. You obviously do not.

Am I qualified? God thinks so, so that is good enough for me. Hallelujah, and Praise the Lord He has saved me from my sins and put me in the highest place as a friend alongside Him. What a King, what a gift of grace.

Peter, Peter, where in the world do you come up with statements like in blue above? What is happening inside your mind to actually make up this stuff?

Why not just believe in the gospel and walk in the new creation if Christ being in you - you were created in righteousness and holiness. Paul talked about in some form "in Christ" 140x times in his epistles. I suggest you feed on them for awhile. They will bless you and help you to grow up in the Lord!

 

[TonyJay]

I understand your position, but you are wrong. Christ is God showing Himself freely to us and saying come follow me.
If you do not follow, you are lost.

You want to create a construct of free salvation and works salvation that do not work. Do you say a plant is alive or dead because it is planted in soil by a gardener. No it is alive or dead based on that it turns from a seed into a plant. No plant, just seed, it is dead.

It is stupid to use language that does not fit this obvious connection Jesus and the apostles are making.
If I am a living working plant, I am in the kingdom, alive in the relationship with God. If the plant dies, I am lost, out of the Kingdom, am no more saved. End of story.

You guys want to condemn people for understanding gardening and the Kingdom. You obviously do not.

Am I qualified? God thinks so, so that is good enough for me. Hallelujah, and Praise the Lord He has saved me from my sins and put me in the highest place as a friend alongside Him. What a King, what a gift of grace.

Really!
That is a pretty sweeping statement Peter.
I actually grew up on a farm!
There is probably no point in trying to justify any of the theological positions that I hold or my theological qualification - howsoever defined.

I am however pointing out the actual inaccuracies and contradictions in what YOU actually wrote.
I am not make sweeping statements.

Now you have made a rather strange assertion in a previous post, so I asked you a question about Abraham - perhaps you should answer it.

 

[PeterJens]

Picture this the vastness of human kind before the Judgement seat of Christ

Most are complaining, bitter, hurt, empty, cursing, angry, not knowing what happens next.

A few have a sparkle in the eye, who shine like lights, out of whom love pours.
The Lord appears and calls His people. All who are left are just empty shells.

Soon all who remain are His people.

What matters is what you are, as a loving eternal being. Jesus is saying this is only possible with
Him, and through Him. If you become and abide you are in heaven.

Anything else and you are in the world and lost, swept away in all the confusion of sin and darkness.

People actually know this, but they do not know how to change the person within into this
glorious person they see in Christ. That is the gospel and discipleship.
That is what it means to be saved.

 

[BeyondET]

Quite frankly you do not understand mysticism. I suggest you go and study why the church had a problem with the gnostics.

Maybe you are partly a mystic yourself, I do not know.

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God.
Deut 18:10-13

I saw a recent video of a prophet talking to christians with message from the dead. This is being a medium and spiritist.

Though this is sin, the church called this spiritual behaviour. That is how far this thinking and behaviour has gone.

Ok why didn't you post this in your opening thread, you can call me what you want my friend but you know what I'm talking look at your first thread in bold at the bottom that's a mystic statement in my view, your words are the words of God hardly.

 

[PeterJens]

Really!
That is a pretty sweeping statement Peter.
I actually grew up on a farm!
There is probably no point in trying to justify any of the theological positions that I hold or my theological qualification - howsoever defined.

I am however pointing out the actual inaccuracies and contradictions in what YOU actually wrote.
I am not make sweeping statements.

Now you have made a rather strange assertion in a previous post, so I asked you a question about Abraham - perhaps you should answer it.

Tony, you believe you are right and are telling me what I should or should not do. Interesting.

Abraham knew God and a covenant between them was made which we have inherited.
We are not before Ahraham and to know God if Christ had not come would only have been through the Jews.
Maybe you missed this in your theological training.

You appear to be quite judgemental. Your judgement is based on an interpretation of the word grace and me wishing grace to people. Grace can mean peace, love, but that is your contradiction. You are obviously looking for grounds to start a dispute.

Why should I show you any respect, based on your agressive attitude and stance?

 

[PeterJens]

Ok why didn't you post this in your opening thread, you can call me what you want my friend but you know what I'm talking look at your first thread in bold at the bottom that's a mystic statement in my view, your words are the words of God hardly.

I am simply repeating the explanation Ezekiel is giving. These are the words of God.

So 100% this is the word of God. What else are you saying it is? Can you not read or understand english?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Peter, I know the definition of grace and this is not it!

Try going to the Oxford dictionary and looking it up.
Once you have got a handle on that perhaps then we can try applying it in a theological context.

Tony Jay

The dictionary definition of grace is hardly suitable for adequately explaining GOD's grace towards sinners.

 

[PeterJens]

It is obvious you guys hate the idea I am calling your faith mystical.

Well I am and so is God. You have a choice. Repent now and get right with God or wait till judgement falls

It gets no clearer than that. I am not saying here is a word because I just invented it.
I am taking Gods word, repeating it, making it plain and saying this is Gods word.

Get the picture...

 

[JennaLeanne]

Quite frankly you do not understand mysticism. I suggest you go and study why the church had a problem with the gnostics.

Maybe you are partly a mystic yourself, I do not know.

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God.
Deut 18:10-13

I saw a recent video of a prophet talking to christians with message from the dead. This is being a medium and spiritist.

Though this is sin, the church called this spiritual behaviour. That is how far this thinking and behaviour has gone.

Here you are accusing a brother again...

 

[JennaLeanne]

Sorry for upsetting you. This is my defintion of how I use the word grace. Language is about the meaning you put on words. It is not a set of laws etc. You obviously do not like what I am sharing. I suggest you repent and seek Gods face.

It is not any clearer than I have shared.

And again.. "I peter suggest" Because they don't agree with you they need to repent and seek God, this is such disturbing behaviour

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Mystical defence

Humanistic thinking. Accepting we are humans, and our human body, our human spirits, are acceptable to God and saved, righteous and holy. This is what they mean by humanistic thinking.

In the mystical mind only things from heaven are holy and true. Gnostics were the ultimate mystics, believing the body was totally evil, and Christ only seemed to be on earth.

The gospel says Jesus was fully man, and righteous and holy. Because He could be all these things, and dwell in communion with the Lord so can we. It is this reality that gives us hope and faith.

The mystics on the other hand cannot believe they can ever be truly righteous and holy, because they are sinners who sin all the time. It is this reality that makes Christ so fantastic, not that he came as a man to show us we are loved and can choose to follow, choose to be righteous, choose to open up your hearts, choose to read and dwell with Him and choose to walk away. God gives us all these rights, and to be called His friends.

We are friends with God, not just servants, but His friends. Do you comprehend how the creator of all could call you a friend? How many true friends have you got? A few? Any?

God has said you are His friend if you do as He commands.

This brings up another aspect of mystic-type beliefs: the focus being only on inward things and outward things are considered to be inconsequential or irrelevant.

One manifestation of this that I've witnessed is the belief that we are the righteousness of GOD, yet we are totally unable to do GOD's righteousness. That belief reveals a real schism in the mind and a detachment from reality.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Mysticism is the belief in super-spiritual events which are the only important aspect of life.

The hyper-grace movement is a mystical theology wrapped in christian dress.

It opposes walking in righteousness, moral law and calls this legalism.

The Lords word is to be saved we must walk in righteousness. You cannot be saved and abide in sin.

IMO hyper grace is neo-gnosticism, ie. a modern manifestation of the ancient gnostic heresy. Those heretics indeed thought that they would be saved regardless of what they did with their bodies.

 

[JennaLeanne]

IMO hyper grace is neo-gnosticism, ie. a modern manifestation of the ancient gnostic heresy. Those heretics indeed thought that they would be saved regardless of what they did with their bodies.

Has anybody once on here said its okay to do this with your body, or its okay to sin over and over.. I have never heard one of the so-called "Hyper-grace" teachers ever say that sin is okay!! Quite the opposite infact... How can we carry on living in sin with Christ in us ???? Roams 6:1 Shall we go on sinning that grace may abound, of course not!! How can you who are dead to sin carry on living in it...