Mysticism & righteousness

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miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#61
A dispute has arisen among people who appear to be the same in faith but are not.

The mystic

An encounter with God changes your heart. You are given a new heart born into his Kingdom and
can never leave. No matter what you do you are safe.
The ethic is the encounter, and then subsequent encounters which change you, not of your will
but some strange force which is not interlectual, or chosen, or definable.

Righteousness

God is righteous, holy, just, loving, the source of all.
We as sinners who repent of our sins, trust on Christ for the forgiveness of sins, are empowered
through following and love in our hearts to walk righteously. It is a hard battle to transformation
but we come out holy, righteous, redeemed people.
This is the world of choice and will, of repentance and confession, getting yourself right with God.

Biblical detail is best laid out be Ezekiel

But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die.

None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live.

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezek 18:21-23

But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live?

None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered.

Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
Ezek 18:24

The road is simple. Repent and walk in righteousness to gain life with Christ.
Walk in sin and face judgement.

It is through faith in the forgiveness offered in the Cross that we gain forgiveness so we can
walk in righteousness, consciously, choosing ourselves, not imputed, or adopted, holy living.

There are those who say if you taste of God, you are eternal and will never face judgement.

This is heresy and mysticism and a different faith.

The heretics use hyper-legalism to say all the prophets were lost, the Jews were lost and only after
the cross is the kingdom real. They are forever bounded in invented sin, which they can never
be free from so without imputed righteousness they are dead. Problem is in heaven these same
sins will occur, which is impossible for them to be sins.

So I call you as Jesus did, repent of your sins as God has defined and walk in righteousness,
there is no other way to salvation.

Mysticism can take christian language, but it shows itself when the real differences are talked
about, like repentance, holiness, purity, integrity, honesty, truth. They regard themselves
constant sinners daily, hourly, by the minute. Invented sins, thoughts, intentions, hopes,
fears, passing fancies. Rather than temptations or passing feelings, these are sins.

And they make us to be evil, legalists, rule makers, self justifiers, hyprocrites who live in sin
but ignore it. They alone are truly born again with the mystical new perfect heart dwelling
in a sinful body. Their aspiration is to dwell in their new mystical being and leave the rest
behind.

There are similar tensions in christian life, with emotional impulses, setting order and appropriatness
in ones own heart, but it is accepting our bodies as holy vessels and being the redeemed righteous
bride of Christ, fully acceptable as His loving holy people is what we are today, in the here and now.

This is the word of the Lord.
THIS is you, Peterjens, saying by Peterjens thoughts and words what GOD said...

THIS then, is NOT the WORD OF THE LORD...

HIS WORD and PROMISES are sufficient...don't you think?
And faith even the size of a mustard seed, directed in and on CHRIST JESUS alone...
Don't you think that it is sufficient faith to save?
 
T

TonyJay

Guest
#62
From the time of taking Israel out of Egypt to the time of Jesus, to find God you needed to become a Jew.

Are you saying there are other dispensations that you know about?

Now I only know the time of my life and what I read of in scripture. You use the term completely untrue. Please show me how I have lied and where in scripture it says there is another way of finding God other than through His people.
As this is the only positive I know of this is what I am going with.

Your argument is about grace working throughout history. This is so convoluted and not there I am not going to try and understand.

We are heirs because of a relationship of the faith of Abraham had with God. You could say if we had the same relationship of faith then we also could find God. You could extend that to today and say Jesus is not the only way, you could find God without Jesus.

This is not what Jesus says though. So following logically on, unless you have a special revelation, what I have described is 100% correct. Ofcourse you can have your opinoin but you have not really expressed it properly.

Your approach seems to be to show I have no argument or authority, then come with a proposal. If both do not add up, it is not actually much there.

Now what I am saying is simple. We need to repent of sin. I have no message for you personally, I am sharing Gods word.
Do you have sin you need to repent of, which this sharing has stirred up in you? What else are you sharing?

Mysticism is ok and true?
but what about before that time?
How could Abraham approach God?
He is one of the great men of faith - a man of God, someone who knew God.
He neither needed works nor the Law to achieve this, so, how did he do it?
As I explained - by grace through faith apart from the Law - the template was established way before the time of Moses, the giving of the Law, the establishment of the Temple.
And this template still held during the following era or dispensation (whatever you want to call it) when the Law was given to Moses. The giving of the Law and what is called the Mosaic covenant did not nullify the Abrahamic covenant any more than what we refer to as the new covenant in Christ Jesus nullifies the Mosaic covenant and the Law.
However, Jesus Christ fulfilled the demands of the Law on our behalf.
Paul makes it very clear that the Law cannot not save, it can only condemn.
This is all in Romans, reiterated in Galatians, and, arguably, set out more elegantly in Hebrews although Paul is likely not the author of Hebrews.
That passage in Romans that I quoted previously spells out the absolute dichotomy between the Law and the gospel of grace through faith that is offered through Christ Jesus. The rest of Romans just enlarges on the same themes.
There is no salvation (fellowship with God) through the Law it can only come by grace through faith and this pattern was established very early on in the Book of Genesis.
 
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miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#63
From the time of taking Israel out of Egypt to the time of Jesus, to find God you needed to become a Jew.

Are you saying there are other dispensations that you know about?

Now I only know the time of my life and what I read of in scripture. You use the term completely untrue. Please show me how I have lied and where in scripture it says there is another way of finding God other than through His people.
As this is the only positive I know of this is what I am going with.

Your argument is about grace working throughout history. This is so convoluted and not there I am not going to try and understand.

We are heirs because of a relationship of the faith of Abraham had with God. You could say if we had the same relationship of faith then we also could find God. You could extend that to today and say Jesus is not the only way, you could find God without Jesus.

This is not what Jesus says though. So following logically on, unless you have a special revelation, what I have described is 100% correct. Ofcourse you can have your opinoin but you have not really expressed it properly.

Your approach seems to be to show I have no argument or authority, then come with a proposal. If both do not add up, it is not actually much there.

Now what I am saying is simple. We need to repent of sin. I have no message for you personally, I am sharing Gods word.
Do you have sin you need to repent of, which this sharing has stirred up in you? What else are you sharing?

Mysticism is ok and true?


Actually GOD made the distinction between Pharoah's flock and "HIS FLOCK" before taking out of egypt and bringing into Israel...(please review Exodus 8)

Further this "distinction" is mentioned a few more times before GOD...."MARKS" what belongs to HIM before the avenging angel passes through "egypt" and actually does that...Passes over those whose "houses" which are MARKED...
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#64
You could take that meaning, but in the end the word of God is what He means by His message.

If I was a lawyer and I wanted to clearly define everything I would have to put explanations by everything. Thankfully I do not have to and God does not either.

I suggest it is up to the reader to take the meaning they are happy with. What I wanted to emphasis this is the Word of God, His intention, His message, His truth, His testimony. I am just one guy in 2016 reading from a book 3000 years old, quoting a prophet who spoke to Gods people. It is my calling and my conviction, this is the Word of God.

The question is what is the reader going to do?
all I'm saying is if you choose to use words as such (these are the words of God) learn to display them properly in order of statements if your going to us them in a thread of learning, you just can't lump your words and bible verses together then at the end say these are the words of God. It's pretty simple.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
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#65
Dear reader,

Grace7 is very scared. He believes showing the difference between His faith and ours will doom
people to hell forever.

He claims God alone chooses and teaches, yet he behaves like everything depends upon his
arguments and teaching.

I on the other hand believe we have choices to make and preaching repent and walk in
righteousness is the gospel. Without it there is no hope.

My point is made the choice is yours. I am here just to shine a light so you are no
longer innocent.
Actually this is "self-righteousness" being professed and has nothing to do with the TRUTH.

In fact, if you want to do what is TRUTH, you would remember Romans 10 and not say who will ascend or who will descend.

Before the time..
Since it is also written do not judge, leave all things to HIM who judges J U S T L Y...who alone will lay bare the hidden agenda/motives of the hearts and the minds of all men and then men will receive his praise...from THE ONE to whom he looks to...

Perfect love, by the way, drives out all fear.
And for you to speak as if you know the spirit of another man, is also not truth...for the WORD of TRUTH also declares that no man can know the spirit of another man, save THAT MAN.

Therefore, concern yourself with your own spirit and not with adding your own imperfect insight into what you think the other is about...
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#66
but what about before that time?
How could Abraham approach God?
He is one of the great men of faith - a man of God, someone who knew God.
He neither needed works nor the Law to achieve this, so, how did he do it?
As I explained - by grace through faith apart from the Law - the template
Abraham was justified by his faith, but was saved through his works of faith (e.g., circumcision). Notice that the covenant was continued with Isaac because Abraham obeyed GOD's voice.

And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Genesis 26:4-5
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#67
Mysticism has no part in biblical Christianity. Mysticism is an Eastern religion and has entered the church through new age beliefs not the bible.

Mysticism views God wholly different from the bible. It is a man centered religion not a Christ centered religion save that it changes the divine Christ into a man albeit a very moral and good man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#68
Abraham was justified by his faith, but was saved through his works of faith (e.g., circumcision). Notice that the covenant was continued with Isaac because Abraham obeyed GOD's voice.
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Genesis 26:4-5
No he wasn't.
THE WORD and PROMISE of GOD came to Abraham BEFORE any works...

Abraham believed GOD...he had heard HIS VOICE already...and he did what GOD had called him to do...which was circumcise all those who belonged to Abraham and was simply an outward mark signifying an outward covenant before GOD.

Rahab put a red ribbon in her window, but the word of truth came first.
She asked for life and was told bring all who belong to you in "your house" and mark it with a red ribbon...and remain in that house and don't come out.

Circumcision is NOT circumcision if it is only outward...
THAT TRUE CIRCUMCISION...that cut to the heart at hearing the WORD of GOD/THE GOSPEL as it should be heard and believing the WORD of GOD/THE GOSPEL is the TRUE EIGHTH DAY CIRCUMCISION signifying a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST...reborn of HIS LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT and marked and WASHED by HIS BLOOD...which is the ONLY GARMENT needed at the WEDDING.
AND SINCE HE IS THE BRIDEGROOM< HE GETS THE LAST SAY ON WHO BELONGS IN THE HOUSE...
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#69
Mysticism has no part in biblical Christianity. Mysticism is an Eastern religion and has entered the church through new age beliefs not the bible.

Mysticism views God wholly different from the bible. It is a man centered religion not a Christ centered religion save that it changes the divine Christ into a man albeit a very moral and good man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Mysticism removes CHRIST from the equation
Mysticism implies that a man can attain to a level of communication with god(s)...but if that "mystic" denies THE SON, he does not have GOD...and his whatever it is is in vain...

No man ((((NO MAN))))) can come to THE FATHER except through CHRIST
And it is ONLY THROUGH CHRIST that one has access to THE FATHER by ONE SPIRIT.
He who has THE SON, has THE FATHER also...
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#70
all I'm saying is if you choose to use words as such (these are the words of God) learn to display them properly in order of statements if your going to us them in a thread of learning, you just can't lump your words and bible verses together then at the end say these are the words of God. It's pretty simple.
HIS intention is that we rest in THE TRUTH of HIS SON and do not "go out" from HIM.
There is a difference between those who REMAIN IN HIM and those who "go out"...and that difference will be clearly made manifest when "darkness comes"....

Then will it be made evident those who knew their GOD and those who simply did lip service to HIS NAME...
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,790
6,356
113
#71
Abraham was justified by his faith, but was saved through his works of faith (e.g., circumcision). Notice that the covenant was continued with Isaac because Abraham obeyed GOD's voice.
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Genesis 26:4-5
see this little twist?? according to this, the way is by faith through works for grace. no, wrong as usual h.r.f.t.d. grace faith works. Abraham obeyed BECAUSE God chosen him, not to get chosen. read the Bible with a pre-disposed position that God loves you, and wants to save you, instead of " God does not like us and really wants to burn us forever in hell but if we try really hard, jump through 6984 hoops, he might save us. " . this is the legalist ( wrong ) view.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#72
Peter Jens,
Abraham was called to sacrifice his promised son.
Please explain if we are heirs to that faith and that call?

What I would like to have cleared up before you continue on implying works...

Do you know the difference between the works wrought in GOD and the works NOT wrought in GOD.
Will you be able to discern correctly?

This is in response to your post #56
 
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Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#73
No he wasn't.
THE WORD and PROMISE of GOD came to Abraham BEFORE any works...
If Abraham had not obeyed GOD's command of circumcision, he would not have been saved. Salvation through the new covenant came into being through the covenants of circumcision and law.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#74
If Abraham had not obeyed GOD's command of circumcision, he would not have been saved. Salvation through the new covenant came into being through the covenants of circumcision and law.

Abraham obeyed.
PERIOD

And circumcision is NOT circumcision if it is SIMPLY OUTWARD. (Romans 2)

Please review the above and read the TRUTH...


Another thing, what do you understand of this:

THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY
 
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miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#75
If Abraham had not obeyed GOD's command of circumcision, he would not have been saved. Salvation through the new covenant came into being through the covenants of circumcision and law.
Salvation through the NEW COVENANT came by CHRIST JESUS.
All these other lower signs and representations ever and always pointed to CHRIST
That is why it is said:

THE TESTIMONY/TRUTH/RECORD of JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY...

Everything spoken in lower visible signs pointed to and spoke of the HIGHER AND HIDDEN AND INVISIBLE TRUTHS ALL FOUND IN JESUS...

All these things were shadows of ALL THE REALITIES FOUND IN CHRIST...
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#76
Mysticism removes CHRIST from the equation
Mysticism implies that a man can attain to a level of communication with god(s)...but if that "mystic" denies THE SON, he does not have GOD...and his whatever it is is in vain...

No man ((((NO MAN))))) can come to THE FATHER except through CHRIST
And it is ONLY THROUGH CHRIST that one has access to THE FATHER by ONE SPIRIT.
He who has THE SON, has THE FATHER also...
Just as God has said they would.

Rom 1:19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
T

TonyJay

Guest
#77
If Abraham had not obeyed GOD's command of circumcision, he would not have been saved. Salvation through the new covenant came into being through the covenants of circumcision and law.
This its completely incorrect.
Romans 2:17-29 completely debunks the myth of physical circumcision saving anyone.
Romans 3 in totality completely debunks any possibility of salvation by works or through the law.
vs 20 is an excellent summary of what the law can do and what it cannot do.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#78
Sounds like

1. People agree mysticism is not christian
2. We are saved through faith in Christ

Now it could get a bit lost but the true focus is we need to stay walking in faith till we die to be saved.
Mystical ideas suggest you are saved though a lost sinner.

It is here where the heresies begin, because of future forgiven sin doctrines, which only make sense
if you are a mystical born again spirit which is now eternal and not mortal.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#79
It is always possible to pick a theological battle across almost every doctrine you like.

Sounds like you guys want a war. Why is that?
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#80
This its completely incorrect.
Do you mean this or I do not agree with this because...
I have no opinion on circumcision and its implications etc.

It is true if Abraham has disobeyed God, that is sin and the relationship would have been broken.
So you statement is wrong, even at its simplest level. Sounds like you want to be the authority here.
Nothing really works like that and not with God.