I'm assuming you believe you will be ignored in Heaven also? I'm sorry, but I will not accept that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will ignore me in Heaven. If that is what your church teaches, then I'm sorry for you. Why do you pray if you know your prayers are ignored? I know my prayers are heard. Guess what? So are Mary's.By the way, I have repented, FYI
Peter, The First Pope?
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E
you know as someone who seriously doesn't want to argue and can honestly tell you that Christ changed my life so much that I actually love people as commanded by Christ I don't think many things we debate on here really matter. I believe that if we were to be concerned about such things such as how old the world is and such things such as details about the spiritual powers at war with us Christ would have told us this in the New Testament.
The 'church' seems to claim this, but I doubt Peter had a clue 
. They also claim that Peter was crucified upside down in Rome, but there's no biblical record that Peter was ever in Rome. "Christ is the head of the church" (Ephesians 5:23).
. They also claim that Peter was crucified upside down in Rome, but there's no biblical record that Peter was ever in Rome. "Christ is the head of the church" (Ephesians 5:23).
Since the Bible is silent on this issue doesn't mean it didn't happen. I have to go with the early church on this. The church maintains Peter was crucified in Rome. The circumstances as to why he was in Rome are not clear.
This is what I think might have happened. This is pure speculation on my part. I think Peter was lured into a trap. He was then tried and sentenced to death.
I believe that he requested to be crucified upside down for this reason: he still felt unworthy.
I believe ( still speculation) the Romans took advantage of this request as a way to ridicule this movement that was gaining power daily.
.I have no scripture for this. I have church teaching, family and a mind. It just seems to make sense to me. I am no expert and might be wrong. I do know that everything was not recorded in the Bible as John testifies to at the end of his Gospel. The argument "Its not in the Bible " is weak since John told us its not all in the Bible.
R
I personally have never read in my Bible where Peter was in Rome. If he was, then The Lord would have the writers mention it. The writers did Agree Peter was the Apostle to The Jews in Jerusalem, and Paul was The Apostle to The Gentiles.
My question to The Catholic Followers: If Peter was The Pope, then why did'nt he write the Book of Romans rather then Paul? Apostle Paul.evangelized the Original Churches in Rome, and throughout The Mediterranean Area.
Scripture is exact verification what was taught, and The Words God told all them to record for future teachings, still going on almost 2,000 years later. The Catholic Church.teaches a mixture of scripture with man made traditions that were never taught by Jesus or his chosen 12 Apostles. This is a fact, not picking on anyone here..fact.
And ask yourself why The Pope meddles in Political affairs, when I never read Jesus, nor his Apostles ever did any of this. Jesus and his Apostles were outcasts to the status quo. The Pharisees and Saducees of The Jewish Religion were the ones who.hung out with The Roman politicians, etc.
The Vatican happens to be a full voting member in The United Nations. A group who basically hates America, and does anything it can to vote against Our great nation.
My question to The Catholic Followers: If Peter was The Pope, then why did'nt he write the Book of Romans rather then Paul? Apostle Paul.evangelized the Original Churches in Rome, and throughout The Mediterranean Area.
Scripture is exact verification what was taught, and The Words God told all them to record for future teachings, still going on almost 2,000 years later. The Catholic Church.teaches a mixture of scripture with man made traditions that were never taught by Jesus or his chosen 12 Apostles. This is a fact, not picking on anyone here..fact.
And ask yourself why The Pope meddles in Political affairs, when I never read Jesus, nor his Apostles ever did any of this. Jesus and his Apostles were outcasts to the status quo. The Pharisees and Saducees of The Jewish Religion were the ones who.hung out with The Roman politicians, etc.
The Vatican happens to be a full voting member in The United Nations. A group who basically hates America, and does anything it can to vote against Our great nation.
T
This has nothing to do with the Catholic Church.
Did you actually read my post before "proving" your point by claiming the Peter could not have been in Rome because otherwise you would have read about in the Bible.
How many of the Apostles have their deaths recorded in the Bible?
The answer is very few.
According to the logic that you have applied they must obviously still be alive otherwise you would have read about it in the Bible.
Again, for the record, I will state this: there is no Biblical evidence for papal doctrinal succession.
Did you actually read my post before "proving" your point by claiming the Peter could not have been in Rome because otherwise you would have read about in the Bible.
How many of the Apostles have their deaths recorded in the Bible?
The answer is very few.
According to the logic that you have applied they must obviously still be alive otherwise you would have read about it in the Bible.
Again, for the record, I will state this: there is no Biblical evidence for papal doctrinal succession.
R
The Only Apostle that was killed ( by stoning) recorded in the Bible was The Apostle Stephen.? Not certain on the name, I can look it up. Makes no difference if the other 11 were listed as being murdered
A great book to read which supposedly tells us when and how they died is:
"Foxe's Book of Martyrs" Which you can purchase through a Bible book store.
When I mentioned about The Vatican being a full voting member of the UN, you side stepped this issue and fact, why?
A great book to read which supposedly tells us when and how they died is:
"Foxe's Book of Martyrs" Which you can purchase through a Bible book store.
When I mentioned about The Vatican being a full voting member of the UN, you side stepped this issue and fact, why?
T
Because I am not particularly interested in discussing the machinations of the current Catholic Church.
And, literally and figuratively, this is the wrong subforum.
DISCLAIMER: I am not Catholic, have never been Catholic, and believe that a lot of Catholic doctrine is fundamentally unsound.
My interest, and hence presence, on this forum and this particular subform is because I enjoy discussing the Bible, Biblical theology, and theology in general.
If you wish to post details of a particular doctrine from the Catholic Church that you wish to discuss we can examine its merits from a Biblical perspective.
And, literally and figuratively, this is the wrong subforum.
DISCLAIMER: I am not Catholic, have never been Catholic, and believe that a lot of Catholic doctrine is fundamentally unsound.
My interest, and hence presence, on this forum and this particular subform is because I enjoy discussing the Bible, Biblical theology, and theology in general.
If you wish to post details of a particular doctrine from the Catholic Church that you wish to discuss we can examine its merits from a Biblical perspective.
Sans Paroles - Sin Palabras - Words not necessary
http://designapplause.com/wp-content/xG58hlz9/2013/03/pope1.png
http://designapplause.com/wp-content/xG58hlz9/2013/03/pope1.png
if you read it carefully, you'll see that Romans is addressed to both Gentiles and Jews. to all the believers in Rome.
and also that Paul was wroth to 'build upon another man's foundation' but only to go where the gospel had not yet been preached -- but at the same time was eager to go to Rome and impart a spiritual gift to them. so i have a hard time believing that Peter was the spiritual father of the church in Rome.
[HR][/HR]
& that Peter died in Rome? why not.
in his epistles, he writes that he feels his remaining days are few. and he may have written from Babylon, because he says those there said "hello!" to the ones he was writing to.
Babylon = code word for Rome? maybe when writing decidedly figuratively, as in Revelation, but we're talking about Peter, a man who does not mince words, and is very bold and quick to say what he means. this would be the only instance of any apostle using a figurative name for a location in either their epistles or gospels, outside of John's revelation, which is a vision - written and treated much differently. no, i have a hard time accepting that Peter is effectively 'hiding the truth' about where he is. not Peter, of all the disciples.
and not Babylon of Nebuchadnezzar - this city was a haunt of jackals already, as it was prophesied to be, and while there was a Jewish population there in a nearby town, where the whole population of Babylon had been relocated, there is no history or tradition of the gospel spreading there, that i know of.
but Babylon - a small town in northern Egypt named Babylon, regarded by the Coptics since ancient times as a town that Joseph & Mary fled to from Herod, with the infant Jesus. a town called Babylon that is very close to where Mark was at the time, because history has it that Mark is the apostle to Egypt. in this city, there is tradition of the gospel.
Peter & Mark are close; it is most likely from Peter that Mark gets the information he writes his gospel with; this is the tradition of the church.
Paul writes in the last of his prison letters asking for Mark to be sent to him.
the Egyptian church is under tremendous persecution and also Roman rule. Mark is martyred there close to the same time Paul writes, which is also close to the time Peter is said to have died in Rome, and the time that Peter's last epistle is written, probably from somewhere near Babylon - not the Chaldean city, not figuratively 'Rome' - an actual Egyptian city that had special significance to followers of Jesus Christ.
so maybe around this time Peter hears of Paul's request, and Mark was already arrested or killed, so Peter goes himself, and is there arrested and killed.
or maybe around this time Peter is arrested in Egypt by the Roman authorities and transferred to Rome for trial. wasn't Paul brought there this way, from Jerusalem?
Peter's death in Rome does not by any means indicate that he must have been the head of the church there. if that's all that is necessary, for goodness sake, there is no doubt in anyone's mind that Paul was there!
[HR][/HR]
but my question is this:
who cares?
Christ is the head of the church, the only foundation of the church, and the only mediator between God and man, and all men may approach the throne of the Father directly through Him without need of a priest, for in Him we are all priests. there is no 'ordination of priests' in the new testament.
and the seat of the 1st century church was in Jerusalem, not Rome, where James took an obvious role of authority over Peter, presiding over the first council - -so if you really insist on this human way of thinking about 'succession' then it's who followed James, not Peter, that you ought to consider.
In 1854 The Catholic Church proclaimed Mary being born sinless. How is this a Myth?
Pius XII explained on the theological reasons for her title of Queen in a radio message to Fatima of May 13, 1946, Bendito seja:
Pius XII explained on the theological reasons for her title of Queen in a radio message to Fatima of May 13, 1946, Bendito seja:
He, the Son of God, reflects on His heavenly Mother the glory, the majesty and the dominion of His kingship, for, having been associated to the King of Martyrs in the ... work of human Redemption as Mother and cooperator, she remains forever associated to Him, with a practically unlimited power, in the distribution of the graces which flow from the Redemption. Jesus is King throughout all eternity by nature and by right of conquest: through Him, with Him, and subordinate to Him, Mary is Queen by grace, by divine relationship, by right of conquest, and by singular choice of the Father.
How is this a Myth?
There is none so blind as the Catholics.
How is this a Myth?
There is none so blind as the Catholics.
We cannot build a faith as a law on speculation. I believe at the most it could produce is doubt .
Not sure why anyone would feel worthy of a free gift that cost the giver his life, by His grace giving us eternal life?
Whether Peter was crucified or not does not add the gospel. Christ is not divided. Peter was not crucified for the sins of the world. The matter of death of a disciple has nothing to do with Christ sacrifice. All men die to show they lived in a corruptible body. Its why Christ calls them “bodies of death” that in the end return to the spiritless lifeless dust they were taken from.
All that God choose to reveal is written in his book of the law that we call the Bible. Does a person need more than that which he has written/revealed.... before they can believe Christ to the salvation of your soul? If so how much more is enough? One more word or would a thousand more not be enough?
There are no oral traditions of men as mere theories in the Bible. . He condemned the oral traditions of men over and over. In fact every time Peter denied Christ it showed he was following the oral traditions of the fathers... as the things of men that do offend the things of God ‘s living, abiding word.. He denied Christ the first time by rebuking the lord of Glory and saying not to work out the gospel in respect to His death and Peter performed that again and again to show he was walking after the wrong manner of spirit (walking by sight) .
One oral tradition coming from Peter is found in John 21...This is right after Christ had reinstated Peter having forgiven His lies.
Peter started a new oral tradition that John would not die as a continuing belief Peter had in a hope that oral tradition of men could profit as if it was a spiritual work loosened from heaven . Making the oral tradition of men or I heard it through the grape vine, equal to prophecy (the word of God) .
Again the same reason he denied Christ in Mathew 16: pertaining to the death of that seen to show he was walking by sight according to the fathers and not exclusively by the faith that comes from hearing God, as that which is recorded in the scriptures.
In the end of the matter Christ said in regard to the work he had just finished by exposing the lie of Peter shown in Mathew 16:22 by what death he should glorify God. This is in so much that if every time Jesus had to do the work of rightly dividing the word of truth, in regard to the oral traditions of men as lies.in regard to John not dying. He supposed the world would not be able to contain his words of rebuke in respect to the oral tradition of men.
When Peter heard death of the object of his misguided faith ( Christ flesh) that he was putting his hope in, it faded. He started to look to another person to put his faith in (John to remain alive ) seeing the object of his faith must have had form.
This is something the apostles did when they did not understand, the spiritual unseen meaning. They would look among their owns selves as to “who is the greatest”. Thinking because of the oral tradition of the fathers they had the wrong man standing in from of them, as the wrong manner of spirit, walking by faith the unseen, and not as they were accustomed to ,walking sight as that seen.
Christ continually rebuked them for those kind of oral traditions of sinful men and declared to them : you know not what manner of spirit you are of, as those who do walk by sight . .
This is while Christ was still teaching Peter about faith as to how it works coming from one ( Christ) as a living hope to the one that receives it( the Christians) . Christ never gave up teaching Peter about how his faith works to both will and do his good pleasure in his disciples.
This helps us know if he has begun the good work of salvation in us as he did with Peter that he will finish it to the very end....purifying the hearts of the believers through his work of faith towards us , as a labor of His love. .
This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following;( John) which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him (John) saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? John 19 -21
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.John 21:22
In other words saying what I do with others is not your business seeing it is causing you take your eyes off the author and finisher or the alpha and omega of faith .(Christ)
Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.And there are also “many other things” which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. Joh 21:19-25
The “many other things” are in lieu of the work of Christ rebuking Peter for starting a oral tradition of men that can be called; I heard it through the grape vine.
It is not teaching what the Catholics hope it means making the oral traditions of men equal to the written Tradition of God, the Bible, as if they both flowed from the same divine source, heavenly . . .
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Nikki84 will never accept the Truth in the Scriptures. All he wants to do is follow what the Catholic Church says because he totally believes Salvation is only from the Catholic Church.
He will never accept the Truth because his eyes have been blinded.
We can argue all we want with the Catholics, but their main goal in life is deceiving people with lies from the Catholic Church. There is no Truth in the Catholic Church today. This is why God removed all His Children from the Catholic Church when He brought out John Calvin and others from the Corrupted Catholic Church centuries ago.
Today we have no need for the Catholic Church because we have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and His Scriptures. Also we have no need for the minions of the Catholic Church like Nikki84.
He will never accept the Truth because his eyes have been blinded.
We can argue all we want with the Catholics, but their main goal in life is deceiving people with lies from the Catholic Church. There is no Truth in the Catholic Church today. This is why God removed all His Children from the Catholic Church when He brought out John Calvin and others from the Corrupted Catholic Church centuries ago.
Today we have no need for the Catholic Church because we have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and His Scriptures. Also we have no need for the minions of the Catholic Church like Nikki84.
Mmmmm. Nikki84 says it does not have to be in the Bible to be true.
The Bible does say ALL have sinned, which means Mary was a sinner. But yet Nikki84 rejects this for the teaching of the Catholic Church that says Mary was sinless.
Therefore its NOT whats in the Scriptures,the Bible, that matters, its what the Catholic Church says that matters the most to Nikki84, not what God says.
Nikki84 follows mans teachings above the Truth from the Holy Spirit which then does proves he has never accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior.
Will you ever accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior Nikki84? You still have time to accept Him. What is hindering you from accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior?
The Bible does say ALL have sinned, which means Mary was a sinner. But yet Nikki84 rejects this for the teaching of the Catholic Church that says Mary was sinless.
Therefore its NOT whats in the Scriptures,the Bible, that matters, its what the Catholic Church says that matters the most to Nikki84, not what God says.
Nikki84 follows mans teachings above the Truth from the Holy Spirit which then does proves he has never accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior.
Will you ever accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior Nikki84? You still have time to accept Him. What is hindering you from accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior?
Most Catholics around the world will not read the Word, not completely anyway, and most of these not at allin favor of hearing the words of the Vatican. They believe saints are made by the Vatican, not by Jesus Christ. They do pray to many of God's servants instead of praying only to Him in Jesus Christ's name.
The hierarchy has a tendency to wear robes or gowns with very expensive materials, shoes that the ordinary person cannot afford. These shameless leaders with higher education live better than their parishoners by and large. Some live in palaces, and some even retire to palaces. The Vatican has its own bank, not to mention the vast holdings of the CC.
It is good that true servants of the Lord be paid for their work, but not to the tune of opulent living.
The Word of God is clear in the Old and New Testaments about adding to or taking away from the Word of God, yet the CC is perfectly happy to publish their missals, their catechisms, and so much more in place of teaching the Word as it hs been preserved for centuries......
When it comes down to the nitty gritty, Jesus Christ does not belong to any dnomination, nor did He ever found one giving it a name other than the faith of Abraham.....look and see. Yes! This is what He actually teaches.
The Son of man had no place to lay His Head. It is very weird that the representative of Jesus Christ in the CC has thousands of places to lay his head, should he choose to elect them, all or some.
The hierarchy has a tendency to wear robes or gowns with very expensive materials, shoes that the ordinary person cannot afford. These shameless leaders with higher education live better than their parishoners by and large. Some live in palaces, and some even retire to palaces. The Vatican has its own bank, not to mention the vast holdings of the CC.
It is good that true servants of the Lord be paid for their work, but not to the tune of opulent living.
The Word of God is clear in the Old and New Testaments about adding to or taking away from the Word of God, yet the CC is perfectly happy to publish their missals, their catechisms, and so much more in place of teaching the Word as it hs been preserved for centuries......
When it comes down to the nitty gritty, Jesus Christ does not belong to any dnomination, nor did He ever found one giving it a name other than the faith of Abraham.....look and see. Yes! This is what He actually teaches.
The Son of man had no place to lay His Head. It is very weird that the representative of Jesus Christ in the CC has thousands of places to lay his head, should he choose to elect them, all or some.