Jesus spoke of forgiving the trespass which is somewhat different that forgiving someone who sins against us, if I am not totally ignorant on the subject, since bearing false witness is lying, but yet if a person mistaking identifies someone yet honestly believes they were correct then it is somewhat different wouldn't you say?
Children of the LIGHT
- Thread starter Kosie
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Do you REALLY believe Paul still sinned after God appointed him as an apostle of God to perfect the saints, unto a perfect man? I do not. Saul sinned, Paul made perfect men from saints in God's appointment.
uh, well, er, what did he say about all of this? you are cherry picking Scripture to support your views.....that ain't right.........just saying.....
uh, well, er, what did he say about all of this? you are cherry picking Scripture to support your views.....that ain't right.........just saying.....
Bikerchaz I do my friend. But look at the process in the three verses. It is the Process of God's Salvation. Please lets try to come to an agreement with God and HIS WORD.
Let us do the few verses of 1 John 1 as we would with Jesus in our midst.
1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Note John says that we may have fellowship with them,
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
God is light in in Him is no darkness at all. If I go in and there is darkness in me, then God has darkness in Him, I BROUGHT IT IN.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
Clearly I cannot do sin and have fellowship with him.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Take note, from ALL SIN (Noe can anyone say he does not need this cleansing? NOPE! So can I say I have no sin to be cleansed of? NOPE!
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Ok! Then I confess my sins, he will forgive me (grace starts) but he will cleanse me from ALL unrighteousness(Grace part two) And there is a third part to grace. the GLORIFICATION PART) Where God makes me righteous as He is righteous.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Now God cleansed me and forgave me, but He does not stop there, he now gives me HIS SPIRIT and HIS HEART to live like He wanted too even before the earth was formed. Holy and Perfect, His will. God now CAUSE me to be perfect in His will.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Can I as holy and perfect man EVER say I have not sinned? NEVER! God took me as sinner and made the NEW CREATION. Sin is as far removed from me as the East is of the West, but GOD DID IT. I was a rotten sinner. But God wants me to be ONE WITH HIM and have FELLOWSHIP with Him walking no more in darkness. And the only way I will REMAIN IN THE LIGHT, is if God give me two new things.,... To control and drive the flesh that once SINNED!
God has to make me ONE WITH HIM... He gives me HIS HEART and HIS SPIRIT. And as Jesus asked the Father to do... make all these people PERFECTLY ONE!
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
God will CAUSE ME TO WALK IN HIS LIGHT. WOW what an Awesome God HE is! Thank You Lord, may you also do this for Kosie. Please Lord AMEN!
Let us do the few verses of 1 John 1 as we would with Jesus in our midst.
1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Note John says that we may have fellowship with them,
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
God is light in in Him is no darkness at all. If I go in and there is darkness in me, then God has darkness in Him, I BROUGHT IT IN.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
Clearly I cannot do sin and have fellowship with him.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Take note, from ALL SIN (Noe can anyone say he does not need this cleansing? NOPE! So can I say I have no sin to be cleansed of? NOPE!
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Ok! Then I confess my sins, he will forgive me (grace starts) but he will cleanse me from ALL unrighteousness(Grace part two) And there is a third part to grace. the GLORIFICATION PART) Where God makes me righteous as He is righteous.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Now God cleansed me and forgave me, but He does not stop there, he now gives me HIS SPIRIT and HIS HEART to live like He wanted too even before the earth was formed. Holy and Perfect, His will. God now CAUSE me to be perfect in His will.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Can I as holy and perfect man EVER say I have not sinned? NEVER! God took me as sinner and made the NEW CREATION. Sin is as far removed from me as the East is of the West, but GOD DID IT. I was a rotten sinner. But God wants me to be ONE WITH HIM and have FELLOWSHIP with Him walking no more in darkness. And the only way I will REMAIN IN THE LIGHT, is if God give me two new things.,... To control and drive the flesh that once SINNED!
God has to make me ONE WITH HIM... He gives me HIS HEART and HIS SPIRIT. And as Jesus asked the Father to do... make all these people PERFECTLY ONE!
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
God will CAUSE ME TO WALK IN HIS LIGHT. WOW what an Awesome God HE is! Thank You Lord, may you also do this for Kosie. Please Lord AMEN!
Ariel we can play with words all we like, but if mature in Christ is not sinless then I am not interested in God who commands holiness and perfection, but does not furnish it in the ones that wants to obey Him. Fortunately he does make them HIS WAY!
PRODICAL I only now noticed you are a moderator, and I am glad, because I do not want to serve any man or moderator. I want to serve the God of the Bible, and HIS TRUTH.
Thank you for your patience, sad we do not agree. I would love to be one with others, but only in the BODY of Christ. not another man-made version thereof. I will be much quieter, or try to be.
PRODICAL I only now noticed you are a moderator, and I am glad, because I do not want to serve any man or moderator. I want to serve the God of the Bible, and HIS TRUTH.
Thank you for your patience, sad we do not agree. I would love to be one with others, but only in the BODY of Christ. not another man-made version thereof. I will be much quieter, or try to be.
Perfect, in the bible means going on to maturity. Especially when applied to believers. Not about 100 sinlessness. That is impossible. Believers still have a sin nature.
God's will is that we are not continuously in habitual sin and that we persue Him. Sometimes in the bible, the one word 'sin'.. actually means 'continually sin' by the context of the passage the word is in.
You can apply sinless perfection to God. And to Jesus and the Holy Spirit who are both expressions and images of God.
In English gramma.. the 'perfect tense' is closer to what the biblical meaning is. It is something that was in process and is now complete. The action has been completed..perfected in the sense of finished to its complete point.
'I have perfected the art of making sandwiches'
Does that mean the sandwich is 100 percent perfect? No. That is impossible. It means mastery or complete learning.
'make you perfect' in 1 peter 5:10:
make you perfect,G2675 G5209
G2675
καταρτίζω
katartizō
kat-ar-tid'-zo
From G2596 and a derivative of G739; to complete thoroughly, that is, repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust: - fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect (-ly join together), prepare, restore.
This first meaning isn't sinless perfection
next..
Colossians 1:28 'present every man perfect'
perfect: G5046
G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
This meaning isn't about sinless perfection either.
God's will is that we are not continuously in habitual sin and that we persue Him. Sometimes in the bible, the one word 'sin'.. actually means 'continually sin' by the context of the passage the word is in.
You can apply sinless perfection to God. And to Jesus and the Holy Spirit who are both expressions and images of God.
In English gramma.. the 'perfect tense' is closer to what the biblical meaning is. It is something that was in process and is now complete. The action has been completed..perfected in the sense of finished to its complete point.
'I have perfected the art of making sandwiches'
Does that mean the sandwich is 100 percent perfect? No. That is impossible. It means mastery or complete learning.
'make you perfect' in 1 peter 5:10:
make you perfect,G2675 G5209
G2675
καταρτίζω
katartizō
kat-ar-tid'-zo
From G2596 and a derivative of G739; to complete thoroughly, that is, repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust: - fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect (-ly join together), prepare, restore.
This first meaning isn't sinless perfection
next..
Colossians 1:28 'present every man perfect'
perfect: G5046
G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
This meaning isn't about sinless perfection either.
A
It's not "playing with words" and I find it sad that you think so.
God does demand holiness and maturity in His children and furnishes it.
However His way is not sinless perfection but total reliance on Him and His mercy and grace.
God does not cast His children in hell for not being perfectly sinless.
God does demand holiness and maturity in His children and furnishes it.
However His way is not sinless perfection but total reliance on Him and His mercy and grace.
God does not cast His children in hell for not being perfectly sinless.
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In the OT the LORD said he would raise a from amongst the breathen a man liken unto you and put his words in that prophet's mouth.
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. Deut 32:4
Kinda makes me wonder what words the Spirit of Truth would put in that Prophet's mouth?
It is written in Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
While I can't honestly say that maturity isn't part of being perfect, I am drawn to the words written in Deut 18:10-13
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire,
or that useth divination,
or an observer of times,
or an enchanter,
or a witch,
Or a charmer,
or a consulter with familiar spirits,
or a wizard,
or a necromancer.
For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD:
Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. Deut 32:4
Kinda makes me wonder what words the Spirit of Truth would put in that Prophet's mouth?
It is written in Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
While I can't honestly say that maturity isn't part of being perfect, I am drawn to the words written in Deut 18:10-13
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire,
or that useth divination,
or an observer of times,
or an enchanter,
or a witch,
Or a charmer,
or a consulter with familiar spirits,
or a wizard,
or a necromancer.
For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD:
Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Wattie is this verse true or is your statement of Believers still have a sin nature. True? They cannot both be true.
2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
If believers still have sin nature, then God lies, ALL means all even the NATURE is made new.
2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
If believers still have sin nature, then God lies, ALL means all even the NATURE is made new.
P
luke 23
39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ,[j] save Yourself and us.”
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord,[k] remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
acts 2 24
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
As Jesus was sinless death couldn't hold him. so does sinless mean no death , cos i personally havent met any that have been alive for eons ,
39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ,[j] save Yourself and us.”
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord,[k] remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
acts 2 24
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
As Jesus was sinless death couldn't hold him. so does sinless mean no death , cos i personally havent met any that have been alive for eons ,
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Ariel let me show you what maturity means.....
To be mature in Christ is perfection, it is to HIS STATURE,
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
If the person to the FULLNESS of Christ is not perfect, what is? Mature in Christ has to be the perfection God has for us, and if that is still a sinning man, then God is a failure, then not even the fullness of Christ is holy!
Jesus did not sin, not once! Why? because the Spirit in Him was the Spirit of the Father, the Holy Spirit. A person filled with this Spirit CANNOT sin! Why? Because it is the EXACT SAME SPIRIT that filled Jesus!
If there is nothing but God's Spirit in me, who sins? I am not even in the flesh to sin, my spirit is GONE! God says A NEW SPIRIT I will put in you. MY SPIRIT! Do you say the nature to sin is stronger than the Spirit of God? NEVER!
Ariel are you scared to use the word PERFECT. Is God mature or Perfect? Is the command to be as mature as God or as perfect as Him? I am not scared of the word perfect, becasue it is not my job to make me perfect, it is the work of Our Father.
Mature in Christ or Perfect as Father, there is no difference. If God has HIS way there will be NO SIN IN ME. That is why God says..... We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
WE KNOW? Do you know whosoever is born of God sinneth NOT! I am sure they do not, because God does not lie, not in one verse. God's people sinneth not!
To be mature in Christ is perfection, it is to HIS STATURE,
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
If the person to the FULLNESS of Christ is not perfect, what is? Mature in Christ has to be the perfection God has for us, and if that is still a sinning man, then God is a failure, then not even the fullness of Christ is holy!
Jesus did not sin, not once! Why? because the Spirit in Him was the Spirit of the Father, the Holy Spirit. A person filled with this Spirit CANNOT sin! Why? Because it is the EXACT SAME SPIRIT that filled Jesus!
If there is nothing but God's Spirit in me, who sins? I am not even in the flesh to sin, my spirit is GONE! God says A NEW SPIRIT I will put in you. MY SPIRIT! Do you say the nature to sin is stronger than the Spirit of God? NEVER!
Ariel are you scared to use the word PERFECT. Is God mature or Perfect? Is the command to be as mature as God or as perfect as Him? I am not scared of the word perfect, becasue it is not my job to make me perfect, it is the work of Our Father.
Mature in Christ or Perfect as Father, there is no difference. If God has HIS way there will be NO SIN IN ME. That is why God says..... We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
WE KNOW? Do you know whosoever is born of God sinneth NOT! I am sure they do not, because God does not lie, not in one verse. God's people sinneth not!
Prodigal, a beautiful thing that! But look how this man came to the realization that it was truly God there next to him. Look how Father opened the m,an's eyes to the Truth. One moment the man was also a blasphemer and the next moment he KNEW! No one knows the SON but the Father and no one knows the Father, Except to whom He reveals it too.
God stepped into that man's life and made him SEE the Lord. Beautiful. Same with us, if God does not reveal Scripture to us we will NEVER know, and if He does not reveal Himself to us we will not SEE Him HEAR Him or KNOW Him. It is ALL GOD, my friend.
We cannot get away from the Truth. God wants us to be perfect. And if He wants this, He will make sure His will be done on earth as it is done in heaven. All we need to do, is WANT it with Him. He will do the rest. look what Jesus answered here...
1Pe_4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
If the righteous scarcely besaved... Ariel looks like God does only save the righteous. And look how righteous they are...
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
BIG Words these, and the more I paste it the more I believe God is truly saving HEAVENLY!
God stepped into that man's life and made him SEE the Lord. Beautiful. Same with us, if God does not reveal Scripture to us we will NEVER know, and if He does not reveal Himself to us we will not SEE Him HEAR Him or KNOW Him. It is ALL GOD, my friend.
We cannot get away from the Truth. God wants us to be perfect. And if He wants this, He will make sure His will be done on earth as it is done in heaven. All we need to do, is WANT it with Him. He will do the rest. look what Jesus answered here...
1Pe_4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
If the righteous scarcely besaved... Ariel looks like God does only save the righteous. And look how righteous they are...
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
BIG Words these, and the more I paste it the more I believe God is truly saving HEAVENLY!
A
What do I have to fear Kosie? I have the love of my Heavenly Father, what can this world do while I rest in His loving arms?
I refuse to use the word perfect to mean sinless perfection because I would rather listen to God, then be justified before men.
Mature in Christ is not the same as sinless perfection. We are not God. Nor do we strive to BE GOD. Instead we strive to be who God makes us.
Has God made you sinless? Have you achieved perfection? Do you hear God's voice perfectly at all times? Have you never needed to repent after being saved?
I refuse to use the word perfect to mean sinless perfection because I would rather listen to God, then be justified before men.
Mature in Christ is not the same as sinless perfection. We are not God. Nor do we strive to BE GOD. Instead we strive to be who God makes us.
Has God made you sinless? Have you achieved perfection? Do you hear God's voice perfectly at all times? Have you never needed to repent after being saved?
P
best keep to what scripture actually says,he was a criminal. he believed in Christ thats what saved him.
I imagine its hard to actually do criminal activity whilst hanging on the cross. but hey, what do i know.
quote
'I do not want to serve any man or moderator. I want to serve the God of the Bible, and HIS TRUTH.'
and 'Ariel let me show you what maturity means'
oh and the rest of us are just playing at it i spose. there's that arrogance again, can you see it yet!!
I imagine its hard to actually do criminal activity whilst hanging on the cross. but hey, what do i know.
quote
'I do not want to serve any man or moderator. I want to serve the God of the Bible, and HIS TRUTH.'
and 'Ariel let me show you what maturity means'
oh and the rest of us are just playing at it i spose. there's that arrogance again, can you see it yet!!
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Yes, the word perfect is also used to refer to the maturity of an adult, which is the end or aim to which the child points. Thus it denotes those who have attained the full development of innate powers, in contrast to those who are still in the undeveloped state (children). Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect life (in that sense of the word perfect--exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness (1 John 1:8-10).