Does God kill christians in judgement?

[JGIG]

That God does not hold our sins against us is the eternal salvation view, God's view of us through Christ, we are completely justified, yes absolutely 100% agree.

Yet we live in the temporal world and we still sin and live in a fallen world and God can still choose to deal with us, because of sin, in this temporal world for His own reasons within His own wisdom, as in being chastened.
From the eternal point of view their death as believers is not horrible but perhaps more about immediate redemption.

I am not going read into the text that God struck them down, because it does not say that explicitly, but there is a strong correlation being made between the actions of these two people and their death. That is all I am saying.

Does it make me love and trust God less NO, ultimately in this life all that matters is the eternal not the temporal.

I do get what you're saying, but where is the Scriptural support for saying that in this life God holds our sins against us but in Eternity He does not?

Either we're a forgiven person or we're not. Scripture says that Christ cleansed us from our sins. Period. There is no geographical criteria added - we are cleansed here. Now. If it were not so, then Christ could not indwell us by His Holy Spirit - we would be defiled.

So to the question: How does God 'deal' with us because of sin?

First we must define 'deal with', yes?

And we must determine if He 'deals with' sin already 'dealt with' at the Cross.

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (from 1 Jn, 2)

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (from Rom. 6)

4 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. (from Rom. 4)

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ,the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. (from 2 Cor. 5)

​

I like how Bob George breaks it down simply and clearly:

Has God dealt with the sins of the world?

Yes.

How many times did He deal with it?

Once.

Have your sins been judged?

Yes.

Where were they judged?

At the Cross.

What was the verdict?

Guilty.

What was the punishment?

Death.

Who took it?

Jesus.

How much of it?

All of it.

How much is left for you?

None.

​

(Quoted from Bob George, The New Covenant Explained - free audio player version available here:
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• 
  [*=2]New Covenant Bible Verses

Free download available here:
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  [*=2]http://bobgeorge.net/?ddownload=1833)

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

See now.....believers can have different opinions without insulting the others that don't believe in the same things. So, it can be done. There are some that do believe A and S were believers and some that don't and that is just fine....

There were a number of us that had good behavior between each other despite the disagreements.

In cases like this - this scripture answers a lot of things for me.

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

Amen to this!

-JGIG

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Hi, We will all die. This is because the wages of sin is death. But we have the resurrection
in Christ. This is a judgement on our condition here on earth.

Now Paul and Peter appear to be witnessing is God actively intervenes and executes christians.
Now this intervention is about intervention for me, about removal.

I do not know if the Lord means these people are not in the Kingdom. It is just for me God
chooses to intervene occasionally in this way.

I wonder why it is such a big issue, unless ofcourse relationship with God can never go bad.

Thank you for your reply.

I asked for clarification because I had ministered to a friend of mine, a young lady whose mother had died. Someone told my friend that her mother's death was a result of disobedience to God. The mother of this young lady was a wonderful believer and the careless words spoken to my friend were hurtful to her heart at a time when comfort was needed.

 

[JGIG]

Thank you for your reply.

I asked for clarification because I had ministered to a friend of mine, a young lady whose mother had died. Someone told my friend that her mother's death was a result of disobedience to God. The mother of this young lady was a wonderful believer and the careless words spoken to my friend were hurtful to her heart at a time when comfort was needed.

I've heard a teaching that deduces that the death that sin caused was spiritual (everyone born from Adam is in Adam and spiritually dead, and that's why we need new life from Christ), and that physical death was not part of the death from sin directly (obviously Adam and Eve went on to live long, productive lives on this earth), but that physical death is part of God's mercy - that it's a way out of this fallen world and its effects.

As for the careless words spoken to your friend - so sorry to hear that. We as believers should be encouragers and comforters to those who are sick and/or dying. A wonderful, godly, gentle-spirited woman in our church died of breast cancer several years ago, and someone tried to tell me that it was because there was unforgiveness in her life (thankfully that person was not in our fellowship and did not have access to this sweet lady!). The shameful thing was that the person who made that comment didn't even know this sweet lady, but were simply spouting about their pet belief system.

We will all die, unless we are alive when Christ returns for us. And we do live in a fallen world and will suffer its effects to differing degrees. Jesus told us that there would be trouble in this world - BUT that He would never leave us or forsake us. His promise to us is that He will walk every step of the way with us on our journey in this life, no matter what.

Our Good Shepherd does not kill or punish lost, sick, or wayward sheep, He gathers them in and ministers to them. Which is why this thread makes me kinda mad .

-JGIG

 

[Grace777x70]

I've heard a teaching that deduces that the death that sin caused was spiritual (everyone born from Adam is in Adam and spiritually dead, and that's why we need new life from Christ), and that physical death was not part of the death from sin directly (obviously Adam and Eve went on to live long, productive lives on this earth), but that physical death is part of God's mercy - that it's a way out of this fallen world and its effects.

As for the careless words spoken to your friend - so sorry to hear that. We as believers should be encouragers and comforters to those who are sick and/or dying. A wonderful, godly, gentle-spirited woman in our church died of breast cancer several years ago, and someone tried to tell me that it was because there was unforgiveness in her life (thankfully that person was not in our fellowship and did not have access to this sweet lady!). The shameful thing was that the person who made that comment didn't even know this sweet lady, but were simply spouting about their pet belief system.

We will all die, unless we are alive when Christ returns for us. And we do live in a fallen world and will suffer its effects to differing degrees. Jesus told us that there would be trouble in this world - BUT that He would never leave us or forsake us. His promise to us is that He will walk every step of the way with us on our journey in this life, no matter what.

Our Good Shepherd does not kill or punish lost, sick, or wayward sheep, He gathers them in and ministers to them. Which is why this thread makes me kinda mad .

-JGIG

I have heard horror stories like this too and it is really ungodly behavior towards those that are attacked by the enemy and this world. Like you say - we live in a fallen world and we have an enemy that hates us.

Thank God that the truth is that the Lord doesn't "execute Christians" and is in reality the Good Shepherd that loves His sheep and looks after them.

The very thought of God "executing Christians" to me is so ungodly. Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of God. ( Heb. 1:3 )

Do we see Jesus "executing any disciples" while He was on this earth - showing us the real nature of the Father?...of course not. Religion is just so messed up in their unrenewed minds.

I am firmly convinced that when we see the Lord and our loving Father - we are going to be appalled at the thoughts and words we have spoken contrary about their true character and nature of the God that gave everything so that we could just be with Them in love forever.

Ephesians 2:4-7 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

[SUP]6 [/SUP] and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

We have a great salvation in our Lord!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I've heard a teaching that deduces that the death that sin caused was spiritual (everyone born from Adam is in Adam and spiritually dead, and that's why we need new life from Christ), and that physical death was not part of the death from sin directly (obviously Adam and Eve went on to live long, productive lives on this earth), but that physical death is part of God's mercy - that it's a way out of this fallen world and its effects.


As for the careless words spoken to your friend - so sorry to hear that. We as believers should be encouragers and comforters to those who are sick and/or dying. A wonderful, godly, gentle-spirited woman in our church died of breast cancer several years ago, and someone tried to tell me that it was because there was unforgiveness in her life (thankfully that person was not in our fellowship and did not have access to this sweet lady!). The shameful thing was that the person who made that comment didn't even know this sweet lady, but were simply spouting about their pet belief system.

Physical death leaves those who are still living with the pain of loss of the loved one. Thank God we have words of comfort from Him which tell us we will see our loved ones in eternity.

I cannot imagine the life of the unbeliever who is in bondage all his/her lifetime because of fear of death (Heb 2:15).

We will all die, unless we are alive when Christ returns for us. And we do live in a fallen world and will suffer its effects to differing degrees. Jesus told us that there would be trouble in this world - BUT that He would never leave us or forsake us. His promise to us is that He will walk every step of the way with us on our journey in this life, no matter what.

It is so comforting to know we have such a good Shepherd, that we can lean upon Him, and He shoulders our burdens with us.

Our Good Shepherd does not kill or punish lost, sick, or wayward sheep, He gathers them in and ministers to them. Which is why this thread makes me kinda mad

The father of lies has done a good job in deflecting us from seeing his actions/activities. We truly are blind when we are without spiritual understanding.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Do we see Jesus "executing any disciples" while He was on this earth - showing us the real nature of the Father?...of course not. Religion is just so messed up in their unrenewed minds.

I am firmly convinced that when we see the Lord and our loving Father - we are going to be appalled at the thoughts and words we have spoken contrary about their true character and nature of the God that gave everything so that we could just be with Them in love forever.

Right. Our minds cannot comprehend the love of God. In fact, in order to be able to comprehend the multi-dimensional aspect of God's love, we have to know the love of Christ which surpasses our ability to know (Eph 3:17-19).

That we can have God's love in us and give others a glimpse of that love, is astounding.

 

[PeterJens]

"that physical death is part of God's mercy - that it's a way out of this fallen world and its effects."

This sounds a nice idea, as if death is just a passing over. But physical death is the ceasing of life
and is very much something our bodies fight tooth and nail to stop, and can be horrendously painful,
without modern medication and pain relief can be torture to a real extent.

It would therefore be impossible for me to call this Gods mercy, but just the inheritence of being
part of a fallen world. Gods mercy is when he intervenes to lessen this painful and difficult event
with loving support and kindness often expressed as part of the hospice movement.

And the Lord does execute people. He took Israel and let the Babylonians rip them apart. Read
the prophets and their warnings. What was done to christians in the Nazi concentration camps,
or in North Korea equally is appauling.

But as we are born so we leave this world. It is wrong for us as believers to talk about judgement
on specific people or situations, because it is through love that we overcome, and comforting those
who mourn. Our tradition is through suffering we share in Christ suffering knowing we go to a much
better place.

In our society today, death is rarely talked about, and living a long time is the ethic, and it is
almost failure to mourn or be taken. Rather than be thankful for the gift of life, it is talked about
as our right, and the super-christians will never die, but reign with Christ.

In many ways I would rather be with the Lord, than have these battles over things that have
little meaning, people lost is consumerism and self indulgence while missing real love shown from
the heart through sacrifice, meeting needs, and touching people is ways that matter.

 

[Grace777x70]

Read the New Covenant - Jesus changed everything. It's almost as if the Cross and what Jesus did is meaningless. Humanistic philosophy and religious traditions are just so useless when it comes to spiritually understanding what Christ did for us.

Jesus is the exact representation of the Father. If we want to see the real character and purpose of God - look to Jesus.

God "after" speaking to the fathers and prophets in many way and portions has in these last days "spoken to us by His Son". Hebrews 1:1-3

Do we see Jesus executing any people while here on this earth - showing us the real nature of the Father?

Of course not - the very thought of it is ridiculous and yet religion still looks to the incomplete revelation of God in the OT to form it's opinions and in the meantime ignore the very Lord Jesus Christ who changed everything in the New Covenant.

 

[PeterJens]

To jump to the conclusion that God killed (or the more euphemistic, "God withdrew life from") Ananais and Sapphira as punishment for their deception (sin) in light of the rest of New Covenant Scripture that tells us that in Christ God is not holding our sins against us and has chosen to remember our sins no more - is error.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it

Taking away someones life is killing someone.
Killing someone for a crime, sin, is execution.

We are really talking here that christians cannot face God is Holy and has the right
to execute and destroy those He deems worthy of this.

When Jesus says this

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
Luke 12:5

I tell you plainly if you have not learnt to fear the creator you have
not learnt who God is. I wake occasionally in fear of His judgement
and the words and situations I have been in, because it is so serious.

And I know He loves me, I know the cross, but I also know I am very
mortal and very easily stumble and take for granted the glorious blessing
He has bestowed upon me.

What worries me so deeply is the people who treat such sacred and beautiful
realities as if they are nothing, and turn something so profound in my life into
dirt to trample on me, and yet call Christ their Lord.

I have friends from all over the world, yet people who say they are my brothers
yet hate brothers of a different skin colour. How can a young person be born
to die of cancer at an early age? Because this is a fallen world without God,
man choosing his own way, and we inherit the wages of this rebellion.

This is a broken world falling into oblivion, people lost hurting with often only
the remenants of childish ambition but love burnt out long ago.

But I will still praise my Lord who died upon the cross to bring love and reality
to the world, through repentance, confession and forgiveness, Halleluyah.
What a Lord and what a debt which we cannot repay to this glorious King.

 

[PeterJens]

When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:7-8

Some believers do not know the book of revelation.
The Lamb is Jesus. Jesus is openning the seals of judgement.
A fourth, so today that is 2 billion people about are killed by sword, famine, and plague.

The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Rev 9:20-21

The reason for these judgements is given above.

Now ofcourse you can dismiss the old covenant as before the cross, but this
is John talking about a revelation of the future, after the cross.

Jesus will bring judgement. If he judges the world this way, what about His
rebellious people who desecrate His word and truth. Do you think they will
escape such a Holy, truthfull and 100% consistent Lord.

All He asks for is for repentance, confession and forgiveness. But even that
when faced with this reality people do not want to give.

 

[Grace777x70]

There is a time for judgment and it is not now - it is in the future when those that have refused Christ's sacrifice are then faced with Him.

The Lamb is merely releasing what is coming to this earth when God decides things are at the end. Learn about the New Covenant that is in Christ now - it'll stop this mixture of the Old and the New Covenants from blinding our minds and creating doctrines that God execute His beloved children now.

 

[PeterJens]

A simple observation.

God has never suspended judgement. The Lord in Christ said follow me.
It would be foolish to say following God is without consequences, and if
you start this walk yet dishonour it, you do not threaten your own future.

In the parable of the prodigal son, he was lost and dead but was found.

Judas though a believer lost his faith and became possessed by satan.

Which would you choose to do, listen to Gods word or believe mans
version of everything is fine, just believe and you join the club for
eternity.

 

[UnderGrace]

There is an eternal judgement (not for believers) but I do think there is a temporal judgement for believers, which is not eternal condemnation since that matter is settled, however Paul did have some strong words for those insulted the spirit of grace.

Paul does seem to have believers in view here.

Hebrews 10:29

There is a time for judgment and it is not now - it is in the future when those that have refused Christ's sacrifice are then faced with Him.

The Lamb is merely releasing what is coming to this earth when God decides things are at the end. Learn about the New Covenant that is in Christ now - it'll stop this mixture of the Old and the New Covenants from blinding our minds and creating doctrines that God execute His beloved children now.

 

[UnderGrace]

You see Peter, I agree we should never toy with the wonderful gift God has given us through His son.

Having said that, I cannot see that Judas was a believer and sealed by the Holy Spirit if Jesus had not yet died on the cross and there is no scripture that he had a change of heart but instead hung himself.

There is eternal salvation that is a done deal, if you are truly born again but I think you confuse the eternal status (secure) with the temporal one.

However, I agree with you God has some some very strong things to say to believers who trample the Son of God underfoot, this is however not a salvation issue for the born again believer we are eternally secure, but Paul does tell us that there can be punishment in this temporal world even leading to death, he actually says a worse punishment. Hebrews 10:29.

A simple observation.

God has never suspended judgement. The Lord in Christ said follow me.
It would be foolish to say following God is without consequences, and if
you start this walk yet dishonour it, you do not threaten your own future.

In the parable of the prodigal son, he was lost and dead but was found.

Judas though a believer lost his faith and became possessed by satan.

Which would you choose to do, listen to Gods word or believe mans
version of everything is fine, just believe and you join the club for
eternity.

 

[Grace777x70]

There is an eternal judgement (not for believers) but I do think there is a temporal judgement for believers, which is not eternal condemnation since that matter is settled, however Paul did have some strong words for those insulted the spirit of grace.

Paul does seem to have believers in view here.

Hebrews 10:29

I disagree that these are believers here. Hebrews 10:26 is talking about willfully sinning which is rejecting the sacrifice of Christ for sins.

These were Jews that after hearing about Christ ( verse 26 - receiving the knowledge of the truth is different then receiving Truth Himself ) - they decided to go still to the temple for sacrifices and thus are wilfully rejecting Christ.

The wrath of God on sin will remain on these people that reject Christ and they will be judged by "their works" and I for one would not want to be one of them.

Remember Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would convict the world of sin - and that sin is unbelief in Christ's work. John 16:8-9

 

[UnderGrace]

How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29

I read that the one was sanctified, therefore was a believer.

I agree the Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever of sin and the believer of truth.

I have not always been an abiding believer so I have had the first hand experience of what God does to those He loves that stray and believe you me it aint always pretty.

The Holy Spirit brings us the truth and Jesus bring us back to Him, truth can and does hurt because it shows us how far we have strayed from our first Love, Jesus.

This is God working in the life of the believer for His Glory, and when He shows us how we have messed up He also binds our wounds.

So I rather celebrate this passage as Him protecting His Glory and Worthiness.

A different point of view I guess.

I disagree that these are believers here. Hebrews 10:26 is talking about willfully sinning which is rejecting the sacrifice of Christ for sins.

These were Jews that after hearing about Christ ( verse 26 - receiving the knowledge of the truth is different then receiving Truth Himself ) - they decided to go still to the temple for sacrifices and thus are wilfully rejecting Christ.

The wrath of God on sin will remain on these people that reject Christ and they will be judged by "their works" and I for one would not want to be one of them.

Remember Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would convict the world of sin - and that sin is unbelief in Christ's work. John 16:8-9

 

[Grace777x70]

How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29

I read that the one was sanctified, therefore was a believer.

I agree the Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever of sin and the believer of truth.

I have not always been an abiding believer so I have had the first hand experience of what God does to those He loves that stray and believe you me it aint always pretty.

The Holy Spirit brings us the truth and Jesus bring us back to Him, truth can and does hurt because it shows us how far we have strayed from our first Love, Jesus.

This is God working in the life of the believer for His Glory, and when He shows us how we have messed up He also binds our wounds.

So I rather celebrate this passage as Him protecting His Glory and Worthiness.

A different point of view I guess.

Sanctified just means "to be set apart" ..everyone in the world is "set apart" for the gospel - they just have to chose to believe in Christ.

The world is already reconciled to God now as far as He is concerned - they just have to reconcile themselves to what already is done for them by believing in Christ. 2 Cor. 5:19

All of Israel is "set apart"/sanctified for the things of God.

In 1 Cor.7:14 Paul says that the unbelieving husband is sanctified ( set apart ) by the wife.

Punishment does not exist for the believer that is in Christ as 1 John 4:18 shows.

The beautiful discipline of God is a different subject then what is being talked about in Hebrews 10:26-29.

In order for Hebrews 10:26 to work - it means that there is no more sacrifice for sins for that person that "willfully sins" - which is obviously not the case for the believer. This is referring to the Jewish people.

Even in verse 30 it says that God will judge His people - talking about the nation of Israel. Remember this whole book is called "Hebrews".

It is a book for Jewish people that have an understanding of the Old Covenant already as can be seen by all the contrasts with the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. It is also comparing the priesthood of Jesus with Aaron....lot's of stuff dealing all with the Jewish nation and their Old Covenant....etc.

Anyway - that's my view on Hebrews 10...

 

[pottersclay]

I believe the story is as written. They both conspired to deceive the Lord's anointed, and in turn to deceive God.
There was no reason to lie. They could of not sold the property but vanity came into the picture, what would others think if they said no. Then the boldness of the lie to reap a reward from the most high for something they did not do.
Let's learn to take God at his word. A lesson for all of us.

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe the story is as written. They both conspired to deceive the Lord's anointed, and in turn to deceive God.
There was no reason to lie. They could of not sold the property but vanity came into the picture, what would others think if they said no. Then the boldness of the lie to reap a reward from the most high for something they did not do.
Let's learn to take God at his word. A lesson for all of us.

We are all the Lord's anointed. It is important to take God at His word by studying it all out in light of the gospel. There is no direct scripture that says these were true believers. There is evidence that they were in fact not believers.

No place does it say that they were believers other then wanting to join them and we have people for all kinds of reasons wanting to join churches today - and they are not all Christians.

How could satan fill their heart if they were believers in Christ? Christ lives in our heart now - did Christ get kicked out?

That would mean that satan can come into the believers heart but we know that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe. in Christ. Eph 1:13

I think that this couple were wanting to join the Christians and get in on the things being shared by all the others and so they held back their money of the land they had sold.

When the couple died Acts 5:11 says that great fear came over all who heard of these things that happened to the couple. Then in verse 13 the scripture says something very interesting.

Acts 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

It appears that there were some people trying to associate with the apostles and Christians but after that - they didn't dare try to associate with them.


I still believe that the couple were not Christians as the scripture doesn't come out and say it. I believe that Peter had a word of wisdom of the future of what was going to happen to the couple. I also don't believe that satan can fill the heart of a believer as that is where the Holy Spirit is now in the saint of God. Sealed.

And the fact that the "others dared not associate with them" - this shows there were some that were trying or wanting to join up with the believers that weren't really believers. Acts 5:13

If God was going to "judge" by supposedly killing us for these types of sins - then most of us would be guilty in some form or other at one time in our life of doing something like this couple did. ( not the land thing but lying to Christians which is lying to the Holy Spirit )

Any way I don't believe for a second that God kill them as religious teachings say but we are all entitled to believe what we want in these obscure scriptures types of situations....