Does God kill christians in judgement?

[PeterJens]

Dear reader,

I find it an interesting idea I am sounding ridiculous.

I started with a biblical discussion, about two passages and suggesting certain
theological groups cannot cope with the consequences.

I was then accused of saying something so bad I should be stopped from saying it.
Which is God judges His people.

Israel, His people, caught in rebellion, cut down by the Levites.

Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’”
Exodus 32:27

This is what holiness means. In Christ we have entered in to the most Holy place,
and there we need to walk in purity and holiness.

This is the God who we worship. He has not changed. Sin is still the issue, and everyone
and anyone can sin and will face the consequences.

His people who abandon His ways, will face judgement.

But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Luke 12:45-46

What I find odd is how to help those who struggle with God and holiness, one would
dilute judgement and consequences because of an overactive judgementalism and self
condemnation.

God is who He is, and His words are very obvious. Which is worse to sin without
restraint or to condemn yourself for things Jesus does not condemn you?

To condemn yourself for things Jesus does not condemn you, because though you
have arrived you say Jesus does not love you and wants to work with you to bring
real love and freedom to your life.

And then to be condemned by these very same people, is interesting fruit of things
gone into delusion and blaming others for ones own distortions.

 

[Ariel82]

Peterjens, your words are abrasive and prideful. They stir up conflict. Yet you are blind to how you present yourself and your views.

I can actually see a lot of what you post and agree with quite a few points. However your presentation is sometimes confusing and easily misunderstood.

Yet instead of gently correcting the misunderstanding...you make prideful and inflammatory statements like "

And then to be condemned by these very same people, is interesting fruit of things
gone into delusion and blaming others for ones own distortions."

1. You accuse them of condemn you, when they might just be pointing out your habit of sticking barbs and insults into many of your statements.
2. You insult those who oppose you by calling them deluded.

If you are wondering why people react negatively to you, it's because of the "hidden" insults you constantly put in your responses.

It's salty water and kills plants.

Refrain from posting insults, don't respond in the defensive to personal attacks. Just clearly state the truth about the topics and not the people commenting, aka stop gossiping. Then maybe you will stop having Muslim trying to kill you; instead God will have them fall down asking to receive Jesus as savior.

That is the goal isn't it? To have more people accept the Gospel and be saved?

 

[PeterJens]

Peterjens, your words are abrasive and prideful. They stir up conflict. Yet you are blind to how you present yourself and your views.

I can actually see a lot of what you post and agree with quite a few points. However your presentation is sometimes confusing and easily misunderstood.

Yet instead of gently correcting the misunderstanding...you make prideful and inflammatory statements like "

And then to be condemned by these very same people, is interesting fruit of things
gone into delusion and blaming others for ones own distortions."

1. You accuse them of condemn you, when they might just be pointing out your habit of sticking barbs and insults into many of your statements.
2. You insult those who oppose you by calling them deluded.

If you are wondering why people react negatively to you, it's because of the "hidden" insults you constantly put in your responses.

It's salty water and kills plants.

Refrain from posting insults, don't respond in the defensive to personal attacks. Just clearly state the truth about the topics and not the people commenting, aka stop gossiping. Then maybe you will stop having Muslim trying to kill you; instead God will have them fall down asking to receive Jesus as savior.

That is the goal isn't it? To have more people accept the Gospel and be saved?

Unfortunately though I would love to believe what you are saying, people quickly declare
their positions.

The problem is simple. I am not prideful, and being abrasive is unfortunately in the eye of
the behold. I cannot simply put on their view point and know their emotional reaction to
things. All I can do is state the truth and what is happening. Where does pride or abrasiveness
come into this?

Now let me put things simply. If scripture makes a point, you need to understand the point.
Once understood, it is then a question of do you accept or deny the point.

Now I call delusion, the belief in something that is not true. It is like denying God judges, or
holds our life in our hands, but will always gently deal with us. That is deluded.

If people cannot take this and take it as an insult, then so what. I am called to love God
and the truth more than anything.

So much of what passes for christianity is not upsetting people, when the whole gospel
is upsetting, because it says we are failures. And rightly so. If you cannot cope with being
upset, you have not begun to know our King. The cross is unbelievably upsetting, which is
the whole point.

And conflict, amen. So much heresy passes by, blasphemy, sin, the worst excesses not
answered but peace, peace, peace. This is the same as the time of Jeremiah. False prophets
and teachers saying everything is ok, you will be wealthy, healthy with no problems.

What happened, war and judgement.

 

[PeterJens]

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
“a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household."

Matt 10:34-36

Jesus is about stirring people up to love, to walking in righteousness and purity.
It is about judgement, about truth and honesty.

It is about knowing victory in your own life and walking with others in openness
from the heart.

Now just these few lines of aspiration people will claim to be followers of Christ
and argue with me, and call my whole spiritual foundations not of God.

That is the state of many here, and you want peace, gentleness.
That is the joke, because these people claim to know the Lord and rather testify
to the flesh working in their hearts.

 

[PeterJens]

That is the goal isn't it? To have more people accept the Gospel and be saved?

The goal is to glorify Jesus. And we glorify our King by declaring what He has done
and who He is.

I would encourage everyone to read the gospel of John and then to follow Jesus.
It does not come more simple than that.

 

[UnderGrace]

How about.......
Do Christians suffer the consequences of their choices?
or maybe
What does the story of Ananias and Sapphira teach us about God's judgement on believers actions?

And yes it could have been more inflammatory I am sure.

kill - inflammatory. Let me look at the other words one could use.
Murder - killing without due cause
Allow to die - they were going to die, it was just allowed
Executed - killing with just cause

I think this is the selection I could have chosen. Now which would be the
best description you would have chosen?

If I wanted to be inflammatory I would have said executed.

 

[FlowersnJesus]

Christians kill themselves.

 

[UnderGrace]

Christians kill themselves.

Well God must have had something to do with it because he just dropped dead and I doubt that is what Ananias wanted, unless perhaps it was the devil, but then does not really fit either in context of the story.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

 

[Ariel82]

Unfortunately though I would love to believe what you are saying, people quickly declare
their positions.

The problem is simple. I am not prideful, and being abrasive is unfortunately in the eye of
the behold. I cannot simply put on their view point and know their emotional reaction to
things. All I can do is state the truth and what is happening. Where does pride or abrasiveness
come into this?

Now let me put things simply. If scripture makes a point, you need to understand the point.
Once understood, it is then a question of do you accept or deny the point.

Now I call delusion, the belief in something that is not true. It is like denying God judges, or
holds our life in our hands, but will always gently deal with us. That is deluded.

If people cannot take this and take it as an insult, then so what. I am called to love God
and the truth more than anything.

So much of what passes for christianity is not upsetting people, when the whole gospel
is upsetting, because it says we are failures. And rightly so. If you cannot cope with being
upset, you have not begun to know our King. The cross is unbelievably upsetting, which is
the whole point.

And conflict, amen. So much heresy passes by, blasphemy, sin, the worst excesses not
answered but peace, peace, peace. This is the same as the time of Jeremiah. False prophets
and teachers saying everything is ok, you will be wealthy, healthy with no problems.

What happened, war and judgement.

There is a difference between teaching the gospel with a humble spirit and being abrasive and to prideful to be bothered to learn to speak with gentleness.

If you can't tell the difference and don't understand why its needed, then you need to re examine yourself.

I never said compromise and go always for peace. I said take out your barbs and hidden insults and let the truth of the gospel stand alone, without the contamination of your pride and selfrighteousness.

I posted on hope you might actually pray and ask God instead of assume you know it all and your way is the right way. Even when the obvious results are NOT good fruit.

Anyway, bye.

 

[Ariel82]

James: 3. 5. Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! 6. And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. 7. For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: 8. But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 9. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. 10. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. 11. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? 12. Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. 13. Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. 14. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. 15. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. 16. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. 17. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. -

 

[JGIG]

Well God must have had something to do with it because he just dropped dead and I doubt that is what Ananias wanted, unless perhaps it was the devil, but then does not really fit either in context of the story.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

It is completely possible that Ananais and Sapphira died from shock/fear when their scheme was found out/exposed before God and man:

Is it possible to literally be scared to death?
Absolutely, no question about it.

Really? How does that happen?
The body has a natural protective mechanism called the fight-or-flight response, which was originally described by Walter Cannon [chairman of Harvard University's physiology department from 1906 to 1942]. If, in the wild, an animal is faced with a life-threatening situation, the autonomic (involuntary) nervous system responds by increasing heart rate, increasing blood flow to the muscles, dilating the pupils, and slowing digestion, among other things. All of this increases the chances of succeeding in a fight or running away from, say, an aggressive jaguar. This process certainly would be of help to primitive humans, but the problem, of course, is that in the modern world there is very limited advantage of the fight-or-flight response. There is a downside to revving up your nervous system like this.

How can the fight-or-flight response lead to death?
The autonomic nervous system uses the hormone adrenaline, aneurotransmitter, or chemical messenger, to send signals to various parts of the body to activate the fight-or-flight response. This chemical is toxic in large amounts; it damages the visceral (internal) organs such as theheart, lungs,liver and kidneys. It is believed that almost all sudden deaths are caused by damage to the heart. There is almost no other organ that would fail so fast as to cause sudden death. Kidney failure, liver failure, those things don't kill you suddenly.

What exactly happens in the heart when it's flooded with too much adrenaline?
Adrenaline from the nervous system lands on receptors of cardiacmyocytes (heart-muscle cells), and this causes calcium channels in the membranes of those cells to open. Calcium ions rush into the heart cells and this causes the heart muscle to contract. If it's a massive overwhelming storm of adrenaline, calcium keeps pouring into the cells and the muscle just can't relax.

There is this specially adapted system of muscle and nerve tissue in the heart—the sinoatrial (SA) node, the atrioventricular node, and the Purkinje fibers—which sets the rhythm of the heart. If this system is overwhelmed with adrenaline, the heart can go into abnormal rhythms that are not compatible with life. If one of those is triggered, you will drop dead. (source)
​

To jump to the conclusion that God killed (or the more euphemistic, "God withdrew life from") Ananais and Sapphira as punishment for their deception (sin) in light of the rest of New Covenant Scripture that tells us that in Christ God is not holding our sins against us and has chosen to remember our sins no more - is error.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it .

-JGIG

 

[LaurenTM]

folks are having a prob believing these 2 were saved to begin with

so...it follows it makes it easier to believe they died because well...they were not saved and so we don't have to examine our theology any further

haha...I've had my personal paradigm shifted enough to know it will probably happen again

I think if we understood how dopey we really are while thinking the opposite, we might stay inside with the windows closed and blinds down....

who told Peter they were gonna die? did Peter curse them maybe? I don't think they died of fright. even if they did, who told Peter?

chicken or the egg...scrambled or over easy?

disclaimer: not intended for a poke on anyone...just me rambling on as I tend to do cause I ask questions all the time

 

[UnderGrace]

That God does not hold our sins against us is the eternal salvation view, God's view of us through Christ, we are completely justified, yes absolutely 100% agree.

Yet we live in the temporal world and we still sin and live in a fallen world and God can still choose to deal with us, because of sin, in this temporal world for His own reasons within His own wisdom, as in being chastened.
From the eternal point of view their death as believers is not horrible but perhaps more about immediate redemption.

I am not going read into the text that God struck them down, because it does not say that explicitly, but there is a strong correlation being made between the actions of these two people and their death. That is all I am saying.

Does it make me love and trust God less NO, ultimately in this life all that matters is the eternal not the temporal.

It is completely possible that Ananais and Sapphira died from shock/fear when their scheme was found out/exposed before God and man:

Is it possible to literally be scared to death?
Absolutely, no question about it.

Really? How does that happen?
The body has a natural protective mechanism called the fight-or-flight response, which was originally described by Walter Cannon [chairman of Harvard University's physiology department from 1906 to 1942]. If, in the wild, an animal is faced with a life-threatening situation, the autonomic (involuntary) nervous system responds by increasing heart rate, increasing blood flow to the muscles, dilating the pupils, and slowing digestion, among other things. All of this increases the chances of succeeding in a fight or running away from, say, an aggressive jaguar. This process certainly would be of help to primitive humans, but the problem, of course, is that in the modern world there is very limited advantage of the fight-or-flight response. There is a downside to revving up your nervous system like this.

How can the fight-or-flight response lead to death?
The autonomic nervous system uses the hormone adrenaline, aneurotransmitter, or chemical messenger, to send signals to various parts of the body to activate the fight-or-flight response. This chemical is toxic in large amounts; it damages the visceral (internal) organs such as theheart, lungs,liver and kidneys. It is believed that almost all sudden deaths are caused by damage to the heart. There is almost no other organ that would fail so fast as to cause sudden death. Kidney failure, liver failure, those things don't kill you suddenly.

What exactly happens in the heart when it's flooded with too much adrenaline?
Adrenaline from the nervous system lands on receptors of cardiacmyocytes (heart-muscle cells), and this causes calcium channels in the membranes of those cells to open. Calcium ions rush into the heart cells and this causes the heart muscle to contract. If it's a massive overwhelming storm of adrenaline, calcium keeps pouring into the cells and the muscle just can't relax.

There is this specially adapted system of muscle and nerve tissue in the heart—the sinoatrial (SA) node, the atrioventricular node, and the Purkinje fibers—which sets the rhythm of the heart. If this system is overwhelmed with adrenaline, the heart can go into abnormal rhythms that are not compatible with life. If one of those is triggered, you will drop dead. (source)
​

To jump to the conclusion that God killed (or the more euphemistic, "God withdrew life from") Ananais and Sapphira as punishment for their deception (sin) in light of the rest of New Covenant Scripture that tells us that in Christ God is not holding our sins against us and has chosen to remember our sins no more - is error.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it .

-JGIG

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I have questions for PeterJens, and please excuse me if the questions have already been asked/answered as I have not read every reply in this thread.

My questions, Peter, are:

Do you believe that all believers who die are killed by God due to His judgment? Is that what you are saying?

Or are you saying that God kills some believers in judgment?

I will await your response.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Grace777x70]

It is completely possible that Ananais and Sapphira died from shock/fear when their scheme was found out/exposed before God and man:

Is it possible to literally be scared to death?
Absolutely, no question about it.

Really? How does that happen?
The body has a natural protective mechanism called the fight-or-flight response, which was originally described by Walter Cannon [chairman of Harvard University's physiology department from 1906 to 1942]. If, in the wild, an animal is faced with a life-threatening situation, the autonomic (involuntary) nervous system responds by increasing heart rate, increasing blood flow to the muscles, dilating the pupils, and slowing digestion, among other things. All of this increases the chances of succeeding in a fight or running away from, say, an aggressive jaguar. This process certainly would be of help to primitive humans, but the problem, of course, is that in the modern world there is very limited advantage of the fight-or-flight response. There is a downside to revving up your nervous system like this.

How can the fight-or-flight response lead to death?
The autonomic nervous system uses the hormone adrenaline, aneurotransmitter, or chemical messenger, to send signals to various parts of the body to activate the fight-or-flight response. This chemical is toxic in large amounts; it damages the visceral (internal) organs such as theheart, lungs,liver and kidneys. It is believed that almost all sudden deaths are caused by damage to the heart. There is almost no other organ that would fail so fast as to cause sudden death. Kidney failure, liver failure, those things don't kill you suddenly.

What exactly happens in the heart when it's flooded with too much adrenaline?
Adrenaline from the nervous system lands on receptors of cardiacmyocytes (heart-muscle cells), and this causes calcium channels in the membranes of those cells to open. Calcium ions rush into the heart cells and this causes the heart muscle to contract. If it's a massive overwhelming storm of adrenaline, calcium keeps pouring into the cells and the muscle just can't relax.

There is this specially adapted system of muscle and nerve tissue in the heart—the sinoatrial (SA) node, the atrioventricular node, and the Purkinje fibers—which sets the rhythm of the heart. If this system is overwhelmed with adrenaline, the heart can go into abnormal rhythms that are not compatible with life. If one of those is triggered, you will drop dead. (source)
​

To jump to the conclusion that God killed (or the more euphemistic, "God withdrew life from") Ananais and Sapphira as punishment for their deception (sin) in light of the rest of New Covenant Scripture that tells us that in Christ God is not holding our sins against us and has chosen to remember our sins no more - is error.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it .

-JGIG

That's a great point about being scared to death. Jesus Himself said that men's hearts would fail them for fear.

The other aspect to this is that the couple were Jews - brought up in the terror of the Lord by the reading of the Old Covenant and by the Pharisees and scribes of the Law. Hearing that they lied to the Holy Spirit would have caused great distress to them. God foresaw what was going to happen to them and gave Peter a word of wisdom about what was going to happen to them.

The other aspect is that can satan really fill the heart of a believer in Christ that is sealed with the Holy Spirit in their heart? Does satan kick out Christ? This couple had satan filled their heart. We are joined as one with the Lord forever - where did Christ go when satan supposed "filled" their heart?

Then it talks about the "others dared not try to associate with them" after hearing about what happened to the couple and seeing the miracles done by the apostles. Who are these "others" that were trying to join with them? Certainly not true Christians.

There is just so much against the revealed truth of the New Covenant to believe that these were actual Christians.

There is no scripture that says that they were believers. Jesus Himself said that there would be tares and wheat growing together until the end of all things so the church has unbelievers in it even to this day. They may have our lingo and mannerisms but they do not belong to Christ.

There is also an aspect of being turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh as Paul talked about in 1 Cor. 5 but that was just for that one specific case because they were boasting in what the man was doing. This is a matter of church discipline.

The others that were going to the temple prostitutes for sex and the ones taking each other to court and at each others throat were not dealt with in the same way. This is an extremely rare thing and only the very mature in Christ under the direction of the Lord would appear that can do this.

Anyway - that was a long version of why I'm in agreement with you...lol...

 

[JGIG]

That's a great point about being scared to death. Jesus Himself said that men's hearts would fail them for fear.

The other aspect to this is that the couple were Jews - brought up in the terror of the Lord by the reading of the Old Covenant and by the Pharisees and scribes of the Law. Hearing that they lied to the Holy Spirit would have caused great distress to them. God foresaw what was going to happen to them and gave Peter a word of wisdom about what was going to happen to them.

The other aspect is that can satan really fill the heart of a believer in Christ that is sealed with the Holy Spirit in their heart? Does satan kick out Christ? This couple had satan filled their heart. We are joined as one with the Lord forever - where did Christ go when satan supposed "filled" their heart?

Then it talks about the "others dared not try to associate with them" after hearing about what happened to the couple and seeing the miracles done by the apostles. Who are these "others" that were trying to join with them? Certainly not true Christians.

There is just so much against the revealed truth of the New Covenant to believe that these were actual Christians.

There is no scripture that says that they were believers. Jesus Himself said that there would be tares and wheat growing together until the end of all things so the church has unbelievers in it even to this day. They may have our lingo and mannerisms but they do not belong to Christ.

There is also an aspect of being turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh as Paul talked about in 1 Cor. 5 but that was just for that one specific case because they were boasting in what the man was doing. This is a matter of church discipline.

The others that were going to the temple prostitutes for sex and the ones taking each other to court and at each others throat were not dealt with in the same way. This is an extremely rare thing and only the very mature in Christ under the direction of the Lord would appear that can do this.

Anyway - that was a long version of why I'm in agreement with you...lol...

And all really good points, thanks !

One more thought regarding Ananais and Sapphira - this quote comes to mind: Just because you walk into a garage, that does not make you a car!

Just because A and S walked into the local fellowship to offer their 'gift' does not mean that they were believers in Christ.

I've been of the mind that A and S could have been saved, but you're right, the language about Satan filling their hearts makes a very strong case for them not being believers. I think that's a settled issue for me now, thanks.

-JGIG

 

[Grace777x70]

See now.....believers can have different opinions without insulting the others that don't believe in the same things. So, it can be done. There are some that do believe A and S were believers and some that don't and that is just fine....

There were a number of us that had good behavior between each other despite the disagreements.

In cases like this - this scripture answers a lot of things for me.

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

 

[BenFTW]

I think the underlying fear mongering is that they went to hell. They were judged as believers and so people speculate their final destination. I find this as mere speculation and if they were believers then they are in Heaven now with the Lord. If they were not believers, then one can obviously, biblically, understand that they didn't make it to Heaven because they were not in Christ. Yet, people try to reason this example as being cast out because of their fruit and that is just incorrect.

 

[UnderGrace]

I think the underlying fear mongering is that they went to hell. They were judged as believers and so people speculate their final destination. I find this as mere speculation and if they were believers then they are in Heaven now with the Lord. If they were not believers, then one can obviously, biblically, understand that they didn't make it to Heaven because they were not in Christ. Yet, people try to reason this example as being cast out because of their fruit and that is just incorrect.

Yes this is a very important point to remember, I have actually had that said to me so it is important to draw attention to it.

 

[PeterJens]

I have questions for PeterJens, and please excuse me if the questions have already been asked/answered as I have not read every reply in this thread.

My questions, Peter, are:

Do you believe that all believers who die are killed by God due to His judgment? Is that what you are saying?

Or are you saying that God kills some believers in judgment?

I will await your response.

Thank you for your time.

Hi, We will all die. This is because the wages of sin is death. But we have the resurrection
in Christ. This is a judgement on our condition here on earth.

Now Paul and Peter appear to be witnessing is God actively intervenes and executes christians.
Now this intervention is about intervention for me, about removal.

I do not know if the Lord means these people are not in the Kingdom. It is just for me God
chooses to intervene occasionally in this way.

I wonder why it is such a big issue, unless ofcourse relationship with God can never go bad.