Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[UnderGrace]

Well then you refute the very words of scripture and I really do not know what else to say.

"Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers."

"Thus"...meaning "in summary" "in conclusion"

To "evangelize as well to support the growing church" is not the intended purpose for the manifestation.

To "evangelize as well to support the growing church" is not the intended purpose for the manifestation.

In the church congregation, the manifestation of speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy is designed to edify the church, exhort the church, comfort the church (1 Cor 14:3, 1 Cor 14:5).

Privately, the manifestation of kinds of tongues edifies the individual speaking (1 Cor 14:4); it is the individual speaking mysteries unto God (1 Cor 14:2); it is the individual blessing with the spirit (1 Cor 14:16); it is the individual giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:17).





And how does speaking in tongues in any way, shape, or form cause the believer to not be complete in Christ, or rob him/her (or any other member of the body) of the canon?

 

[notuptome]

I do understand "plain English".

Then act like it.

1 Cor 14:4: He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself

The word "edifieth" is the Greek word oikodomeō.

What reference material are you looking at that defines the word oikodomeō as "the speaker feels good about himself"? Thank you.

How do you describe self edification? Inflating one's own ego? Creating the illusion of a super hyper-spiritual Christian through tongues?

Nope. Get rid of whatever useless commentary you read to come up with that understanding of the manifestation.


The definition of the word oikodomeō is not changed into whatever you want just because you do not understand the manifestation.

The word oikodomeō means to build up.

The prescribed method of building up is through study of the word of God led by the Holy Spirit.

That reply was made in response to this statement:

Your failure to comprehend the energizing by God within the believer does not mean the manifestation of interpretation of tongues is the natural ability of man to translate.

You are impressing your bias to the scriptures. Tongues as languages are readily interpreted by men who comprehend the language. You are forcing a mystical solution to satisfy yourself not God.

More words spoken from a carnal [mis]understanding of the manifestation and how God energizes within the believer.

Spoken by one who does not understand plain reading of the scriptures.

Nope. The manifestation of the Spirit has not ended.

Never said it did only that the Holy Spirit does not move in the fashion to which you seek to force Him.

The word of God does reveal the manifestation of the Spirit and gives instruction as to its proper usage. But you have turned from proper understanding and have followed the doctrine of man to the point where you not only do not understand, you have hardened your heart to God's truth concerning the matter. Hardening of heart results in nothing but trouble for the one who is hardened.

I have simply applied scripture to your line of reasoning.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

A plane flies over the deepest darkest jungle in Africa. Out of it falls a flight manual. The aborigines read and memorize every line of that flight manual. they know it by heart.

But not a one of them has ever sat in the pilot's seat. None have ever flown a plane.

One aborigine makes it to civilization. Seeing an airport he jumps in a cockpit. Assuming his book knowledge is all he needs, he attempts to fly. But having no practical experience in the real world application of his book smarts, he crashes and burns.

His tombstone bears a simple message.

"Here lies Roger. Despite his extensive book knowledge, he never got off the ground".

I don't hate you Roger. I feel sorry for you. You will never know the awesome joy in translating the power of God's written word into action that edifies the world.

Perhaps you are right but with the Holy Spirit the book is the truth of God. While you seek that which is not yours those who love the Lord grow closer to Him through His word and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

John 16: 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

It would be better that you hated me than to despise the truth of Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnderGrace]

It would be better that you hated me than to despise the truth of Gods word.

Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Galatians 4:16

Indeed deeper truths are available the more you align yourself with the truth not the teachings of men.

Do the research you have to look at things from all sides even the sides you hate at the time.

Perhaps you are right but with the Holy Spirit the book is the truth of God. While you seek that which is not yours those who love the Lord grow closer to Him through His word and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

John 16: 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

It would be better that you hated me than to despise the truth of Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

Perhaps you are right but with the Holy Spirit the book is the truth of God. While you seek that which is not yours those who love the Lord grow closer to Him through His word and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

John 16: 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

It would be better that you hated me than to despise the truth of Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For just one moment, put your self aside, open your mind, and read this:

http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/10189-roger-vs-scripture.html

Then tell me who despises God's word.

 

[UnderGrace]

For just one moment, put your self aside, open your mind, and read this:

http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/10189-roger-vs-scripture.html

Then tell me who despises God's word.

You have posted this before and I have read it overly (albeit very quickly) but what is the main thing that we, me , he, whoever is supposed to see?

 

[notuptome]

For just one moment, put your self aside, open your mind, and read this:

http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/10189-roger-vs-scripture.html

Then tell me who despises God's word.

Simply a continuation of the hate you have for Gods truth.

Lu 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Well then you refute the very words of scripture and I really do not know what else to say.

"Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers."

"Thus"...meaning "in summary" "in conclusion"

I apologize, UnderGrace. I read more into your statement than was intended. I coupled your statement in post #398 with post #376 where you indicate the manifestation of tongues was to be used by missionaries going into remote areas where they did not know the language of the inhabitants, and that tongues is no longer needed because missionaries can learn the language of the natives.

That, also, is improper understanding of the manifestation of kinds of tongues.

I do not deny 1 Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.

Please accept my apology.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I do understand "plain English".

Then act like it.

Really? It wasn't enough for you to infer I do not understand plain English? You really had to go here?

Ephesians 4:31, 32 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

The word "edifieth" is the Greek word oikodomeō.

What reference material are you looking at that defines the word oikodomeō as "the speaker feels good about himself"? Thank you.

How do you describe self edification? Inflating one's own ego? Creating the illusion of a super hyper-spiritual Christian through tongues?

So, you will not provide your source which defines the word oikodomeō as "the speaker feels good about himself"?

The word oikodomeō means to build up.

The prescribed method of building up is through study of the word of God led by the Holy Spirit.

And that same Word of God states 1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself

Tongues as languages are readily interpreted by men who comprehend the language. You are forcing a mystical solution to satisfy yourself not God.

You deny the manifestation of interpretation of tongues as being a working of the Holy Spirit as evidenced in 1 Cor 12:10-11:

1 Corinthians 12:

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit


The manifestation of interpretation of tongues is energized by the Spirit. The manifestation is not the natural ability of "men who comprehend the language".

Nope. The manifestation of the Spirit has not ended.

Never said it did only that the Holy Spirit does not move in the fashion to which you seek to force Him.

Newsflash, the Holy Spirit is the One Who energizes the manifestation within the believer and your insistence that "three gifts ended" as you stated in post #390 does not make it so.

The word of God does reveal the manifestation of the Spirit and gives instruction as to its proper usage. But you have turned from proper understanding and have followed the doctrine of man to the point where you not only do not understand, you have hardened your heart to God's truth concerning the matter. Hardening of heart results in nothing but trouble for the one who is hardened.

I have simply applied scripture to your line of reasoning.

Nope. You have simply applied your as yet unnamed source.

 

[Cee]

You mean like refuting the very words that say:

No one understands tongues, but God?
And my mind doesn't understand what my spirit is praying?
Or that you need an interpreter when speaking in tongues?

All of these concluding that tongues is not for human's understanding, but for spirit to spirit communication with God.

Oh and what about the very words of Scripture that say:

Don't speak tongues when unbelievers are around without an interpreter? Because they will think you're crazy.

Well then you refute the very words of scripture and I really do not know what else to say.

"Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers."

"Thus"...meaning "in summary" "in conclusion"

 

[eph610]

Really? It wasn't enough for you to infer I do not understand plain English? You really had to go here?

Ephesians 4:31, 32 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.




So, you will not provide your source which defines the word oikodomeō as "the speaker feels good about himself"?




And that same Word of God states 1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself




You deny the manifestation of interpretation of tongues as being a working of the Holy Spirit as evidenced in 1 Cor 12:10-11:

1 Corinthians 12:

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit


The manifestation of interpretation of tongues is energized by the Spirit. The manifestation is not the natural ability of "men who comprehend the language".




Newsflash, the Holy Spirit is the One Who energizes the manifestation within the believer and your insistence that "three gifts ended" as you stated in post #390 does not make it so.




Nope. You have simply applied your as yet unnamed source.

You are not going to convince him and he is not going to convince you, so let's pick a better use of our time shall we?

 

[notuptome]

Really? It wasn't enough for you to infer I do not understand plain English? You really had to go here?

Ephesians 4:31, 32 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Ok you are forgiven.

So, you will not provide your source which defines the word oikodomeō as "the speaker feels good about himself"?

Source as yet unknown to you? Common sense. Key idea is self edification, self from the word selfish, self centered. As in excludes God.

And that same Word of God states 1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself

Paul is not praising them but correcting them.

You deny the manifestation of interpretation of tongues as being a working of the Holy Spirit as evidenced in 1 Cor 12:10-11:

1 Corinthians 12:

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit


The manifestation of interpretation of tongues is energized by the Spirit. The manifestation is not the natural ability of "men who comprehend the language".

The power of God is perfected in our weakness. You insist on making everything into mystic energies when God uses the simple things to accomplish His will. Providing a person to interpret who knows the tongues being spoken is Gods method. Anything else is open to all kinds of subjectivity.

Newsflash, the Holy Spirit is the One Who energizes the manifestation within the believer and your insistence that "three gifts ended" as you stated in post #390 does not make it so.

Take that up with God He wrote it. Wrote it for your edification.

Nope. You have simply applied your as yet unnamed source.

Sorry the Holy Spirit does not lead into the fantastic make believe world of Pentecostalism and charismatics. Jesus is the center of all things relating to the Christian experience. Tongues are not. Tongues are a sign for unsaved Jews not a plaything for bored Gentiles.

I would tell you of the thrills of knowing Christ but I don't get the impression that would be sufficient for you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

All of that to say you don't believe God's word plainly stated in 1 Corinthians 14? The gift of tongues has a public and private use, of which when ministering needs to be interpreted for the edification of another (in mind). You guys act oblivious to verses that contradict your position, and try to put a meaning into the text that isn't present.

The interpretation of one language to another is twofold or there is no fruit in the dialog .It would do no good if one understood what the person was saying and when trying to communicate there could be no clarification.

During Pentecost at the time of the refomation for the short time God reversed the order of the Tower of Babel .This was until God no longer brought new prophecy. It was one of the manners he did bring the prophecy of the scriptures.

Today if any man claim he can interpret another language without having some research they have violated the warning not to add or subtract from the whole or complete written will. They would simply be speaking into the air.

The apostle Paul himself clearly distinguished his private and public use of tongues. He says, "Yet in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words than ten thousand in an unknown tongue." Does this not imply he uses the gift outside of the church? He speaks of praying in the Spirit and singing in the Spirit (which is praying and singing in tongues clearly revealed in the context of scripture).

In the church simply means when two or more gather together under the authority of His name. When the gift was still valid it was used to bring people into the church. In that way he used the gift outside of the church to bring in new members in it was part of the gospel to go out into the world and make disciples of men l

Praying in the Spirit of Christ that indwells the believer and singing in the Spirit is what we do. The idea of having no fruit when we come to Him, just mumbling making sounds and expect to get heard on high is simply speaking in the air just as the scriptures declare. We walk by faith the unseen not by sight after the experiences we perform . no such thing as a sign gift .The gifts our spiritual in nature not observable in the flesh, they come by faith (the unseen)

Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. 1Co 14:6

 

[iwant2serve]

To speak in a unknown tongue can mean both human and spirit. The bible says when one speaks in an unknown tongue he is speaking to God, why would I need to speak to God in another human language? The bible also says it is not me speaking but my Spirit, the bible also calls it a Spiritual gift, so if there is a person who speaks Spanish and I do not Speak Spanish why would there be need for one to interpret by the Spirit? These are some questions we should ask ourselves when saying It is a human language. In Acts chapter 2 we have at least 12 to 120 people speaking 15 different languages at together or are they speaking by the Spirit and all the nations there are hearing it in there own native tongue?

 

[UnderGrace]

The bible says when one speaks in an unknown tongue he is speaking to God, why would I need to speak to God in another human language?

That is correct because it is a foreign (unknown added in by the KJV translators) tongue and if it is foreign like Spanish in an English only crowd then the person is only speaking to God since God understands all languages.

It is important to remember who Paul is writing to a congregation with many languages and dialects.

The bible also says it is not me speaking but my Spirit, the bible also calls it a Spiritual gift, so if there is a person who speaks Spanish and I do not Speak Spanish why would there be need for one to interpret by the Spirit?

We understand things through language not just Spirit, I am not sure which verse you are looking at here exactly?

It was a human language otherwise how were people back then going to know the gospel? There was no radio or TV, important to not use the 21st century mindset.

Can we tell unbelievers the gospel without words and language?

To speak in a unknown tongue can mean both human and spirit. The bible says when one speaks in an unknown tongue he is speaking to God, why would I need to speak to God in another human language? The bible also says it is not me speaking but my Spirit, the bible also calls it a Spiritual gift, so if there is a person who speaks Spanish and I do not Speak Spanish why would there be need for one to interpret by the Spirit? These are some questions we should ask ourselves when saying It is a human language. In Acts chapter 2 we have at least 12 to 120 people speaking 15 different languages at together or are they speaking by the Spirit and all the nations there are hearing it in there own native tongue?

 

[Cee]

You need prophesy when you are with believers and unbelievers according to Paul in 1 Co 14.
Tongues is for speaking spirit to spirit with God. Unless there is an interpreter.
The part people trip over is thinking, that the goal of "self-edification" is building up the mind. It's not.
The natural mind is an ENEMY to things of God. That's why you don't need to build yourself in the Spirit with natural language.
And prophesy is about bringing people into an encounter with the reality of God according to Paul in 1 Co 14.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Really? It wasn't enough for you to infer I do not understand plain English? You really had to go here?

Ephesians 4:31, 32 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Ok you are forgiven.

For what? For rebuffing your confounded notion that I do not understand plain English?


Here's another verse for you: Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers (Eph 4:29).

So, you will not provide your source which defines the word oikodomeō as "the speaker feels good about himself"?

Source as yet unknown to you? Common sense. Key idea is self edification, self from the word selfish, self centered. As in excludes God.

The manifestation does not exclude God as the Holy Spirit energizes the manifestation:


1 Corinthians 12:

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh (Greek energeō – energize) that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.[/i]


You are in error to imply God is excluded. The Holy Spirit energizes the manifestation within the believer so there is no way God is excluded as He is the One Who energizes.

And that same Word of God states 1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself

Paul is not praising them but correcting them.

Paul providing correction does not negate the edification of the believer by way of the manifestation.

The power of God is perfected in our weakness. You insist on making everything into mystic energies when God uses the simple things to accomplish His will. Providing a person to interpret who knows the tongues being spoken is Gods method. Anything else is open to all kinds of subjectivity.

God's method is to energize the manifestation of interpretation of tongues in the same manner He energizes the manifestation of tongues.

The Holy Spirit provides the utterance in the manifestation of tongues and the Holy Spirit provides the utterance in the manifestation of interpretation of tongues. In effect, the Holy Spirit interprets what was just spoken in tongues.

It is actually your method (i.e., man attempting to interpret through his own understanding) which leads to "all kinds of subjectivity".

Newsflash, the Holy Spirit is the One Who energizes the manifestation within the believer and your insistence that "three gifts ended" as you stated in post #390 does not make it so.

Take that up with God He wrote it. Wrote it for your edification.

Please provide Scripture (chapter/verse) indicating which "three gifts ended". Thank you.

Sorry the Holy Spirit does not lead into the fantastic make believe world of Pentecostalism and charismatics.

In agreement that the manifestation "does not lead into the fantastic make believe world".

Do not agree with you that the Holy Spirit no longer energizes the manifestation in our day and time.

Jesus is the center of all things relating to the Christian experience. Tongues are not. Tongues are a sign for unsaved Jews not a plaything for bored Gentiles.

In agreement that our Lord Jesus Christ is the center of all things.

Do not agree with you that the Holy Spirit no longer energizes the manifestation in our day and time.

I would tell you of the thrills of knowing Christ but I don't get the impression that would be sufficient for you.

What benefit is your ascerbic attitude to you? Do you get some sort of thrill in denigrating members of the body of Christ?

 

[UnderGrace]

You need prophesy when you are with believers and unbelievers according to Paul in 1 Co 14.
Tongues is for speaking spirit to spirit with God. Unless there is an interpreter.
The part people trip over is thinking, that the goal of "self-edification" is building up the mind. It's not.
The natural mind is an ENEMY to things of God. That's why you don't need to build yourself in the Spirit with natural language.
And prophesy is about bringing people into an encounter with the reality of God according to Paul in 1 Co 14.

Well Cee, I thought I might have had you convinced.

Wow impressive the way you tie together the natural mind with natural language unfortunately it is not scriptural.

If you abandon reason when interpreting scripture you will end up with an unholy mess so to speak. Worship in spirit and truth the understanding of the mind is part of truth.

 

[Cee]

Lol.

Building up the Spirit is praying in the Spirit. Saying it's natural language isn't Scriptural because Scripture doesn't say it is. Not one bit. It actually says no one understands, but God. So our spirit is speaking to His Spirit. That's why Paul said when he prays in the spirit his mind is unfruitful, so he prays with his mind AND with his spirit.

Well Cee, I thought I might have had you convinced.

Wow impressive the way you tie together the natural mind with natural language unfortunately it is not scriptural.

If you abandon reason when interpreting scripture you will end up with an unholy mess so to speak. Worship in spirit and truth the understanding of the mind is part of truth.

 

[notuptome]

You need prophesy when you are with believers and unbelievers according to Paul in 1 Co 14.
Tongues is for speaking spirit to spirit with God. Unless there is an interpreter.
The part people trip over is thinking, that the goal of "self-edification" is building up the mind. It's not.
The natural mind is an ENEMY to things of God. That's why you don't need to build yourself in the Spirit with natural language.
And prophesy is about bringing people into an encounter with the reality of God according to Paul in 1 Co 14.

Again I do not know what kind of relationship you have with God but God is not distant nor aloof that I must speak to Him in tongues I do not understand. This is not in the character of God.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Your desire for the mystical and hyper-spiritual has given you over to a revelation that is of your own making not Gods.

For the cause of Christ
Roger