Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[notuptome]

For what? For rebuffing your confounded notion that I do not understand plain English?


Here's another verse for you: Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers (Eph 4:29).

You are still forgiven.

The manifestation does not exclude God as the Holy Spirit energizes the manifestation:


1 Corinthians 12:

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh (Greek energeō – energize) that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.[/i]


You are in error to imply God is excluded. The Holy Spirit energizes the manifestation within the believer so there is no way God is excluded as He is the One Who energizes.

You cannot make the Holy Spirit act contrary to the scriptures. The practice in the Pentecostal and charismatic churches is not representative of what we see in the scriptures as practiced by the primitive apostolic church.

Paul providing correction does not negate the edification of the believer by way of the manifestation.

Where in the bible do I find self edification? God edifies through the word of God not mystic meditations like the new age religions.

God's method is to energize the manifestation of interpretation of tongues in the same manner He energizes the manifestation of tongues.

The Holy Spirit provides the utterance in the manifestation of tongues and the Holy Spirit provides the utterance in the manifestation of interpretation of tongues. In effect, the Holy Spirit interprets what was just spoken in tongues.

It is actually your method (i.e., man attempting to interpret through his own understanding) which leads to "all kinds of subjectivity".

This is the deception of tongues as practiced by Pentecostals and charismatics. You can claim anything and only need another to attest to it to make it so. One speaks in supposed tongues and another says God wants you to give a million dollars to him. Who can argue? What could possibly go wrong?

Please provide Scripture (chapter/verse) indicating which "three gifts ended". Thank you.

1 Cor 13:8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

In agreement that the manifestation "does not lead into the fantastic make believe world".

Do not agree with you that the Holy Spirit no longer energizes the manifestation in our day and time.

You are entitled to be wrong.

In agreement that our Lord Jesus Christ is the center of all things.

Do not agree with you that the Holy Spirit no longer energizes the manifestation in our day and time.

At least you are now half right.

What benefit is your ascerbic attitude to you? Do you get some sort of thrill in denigrating members of the body of Christ?

Only seems that way to you because you is wrong and the scriptures are right.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnderGrace]

I tell you what rather than rehashing this whole conversation again, how about you read this whole thread again and recognize the sound scriptural interpretation that we gave on what tongues (languages) truly is, and if I continue to pray for you, you will realize that yes indeed scripture is completely and only talking about languages that were spoken on the earth at that time.

I am going to start praying now.

Just remember there is nothing less spiritual by real words.

Lol.

Building up the Spirit is praying in the Spirit. Saying it's natural language isn't Scriptural because Scripture doesn't say it is. Not one bit. It actually says no one understands, but God. So our spirit is speaking to His Spirit. That's why Paul said when he prays in the spirit his mind is unfruitful, so he prays with his mind AND with his spirit.

 

[Cee]

The "revelation" i have is from Scripture. You are the one who ignores continually Scripture at your own peril.

Again I do not know what kind of relationship you have with God but God is not distant nor aloof that I must speak to Him in tongues I do not understand. This is not in the character of God.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Your desire for the mystical and hyper-spiritual has given you over to a revelation that is of your own making not Gods.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnderGrace]

The "revelation" i have is from Scripture. You are the one who ignores continually Scripture at your own peril.

What peril would that be?

 

[Cee]

Sure,

And while you're praying please explain why Paul says:

1. Tongues isn't understood by anyone, but God
2. His mind doesn't understand them
3. Nobody understands them so you need an interpreter
4. Paul says they are by his spirit
5. He desires all to pray in tongues
6. Forbid no one to pray in tongues
7. You can stop the spirit speaking through you if you choose
8. You're speaking to God not men
9. Why every example in Acts is speaking to God not men

Yet you ignore all of these things and then label your interpretation "Sound Scripture Interpretation".

Your sound Biblical interpretation will need explain all of 1 Co 14, not just the verses you like.

I tell you what rather than rehashing this whole conversation again, how about you read this whole thread again and recognize the sound scriptural interpretation that we gave on what tongues (languages) truly is, and if I continue to pray for you, you will realize that yes indeed scripture is completely and only talking about languages that were spoken on the earth at that time.

I am going to start praying now.

Just remember there is nothing less spiritual by real words.

 

[BenFTW]

I tell you what rather than rehashing this whole conversation again, how about you read this whole thread again and recognize the sound scriptural interpretation that we gave on what tongues (languages) truly is, and if I continue to pray for you, you will realize that yes indeed scripture is completely and only talking about languages that were spoken on the earth at that time.

I am going to start praying now.

Just remember there is nothing less spiritual by real words.

Maybe by the grace of God you'll start speaking in tongues during your prayer. Then all this silliness can be tossed aside and you can actually stand firmly on the truth and not handicap the body of Christ by false presenting a gift the Lord gives His believers for mutual edification. Just saying... lol

 

[Cee]

What peril would that be?

Blatantly ignoring Scripture and then telling other people they are is called being a hypocrit. And it's extremely frowned on Scripture. That's an extremely perilous position to exist in.

 

[UnderGrace]

Blatantly ignoring Scripture and then telling other people they are is called being a hypocrit. And it's extremely frowned on Scripture. That's an extremely perilous position to exist in.

Speaking in a different language is that important that it could put one in a perilous position?

I would think denying that Jesus paid for our sins could put one in a perilous position but the gift of tongues that was imparted to support the early church and is only mentioned a little here and there can hardly be worthy of such peril?

I do not think you are a hypocrit, just a younger brother who is a little misguided on the gift of tongues, I am sure we all have some misguided ideas.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Good evening, notuptome,

Hope/pray all is well with you.

I will not reply to your post #421. I have given you Scriptural proof concerning the manifestation.

eph610 gave me good counsel in post #411:

You are not going to convince him and he is not going to convince you, so let's pick a better use of our time shall we?

and I will heed his advice as it appears you are unable to discuss these issues without personally insulting me (all the while claiming it is Scriptural to insult members of the body of Christ).

If/when you are able and ready to discuss in a meaningful manner without your carnal disrespect, I will be happy to converse with you.

Thank you,
reneweddaybyday

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You are not going to convince him and he is not going to convince you, so let's pick a better use of our time shall we?

thank you, eph610. I have decided to heed your good advice.

 

[BenFTW]

Speaking in a different language is that important that it could put one in a perilous position?

I would think denying that Jesus paid for our sins could put one in a perilous position but the gift of tongues that was imparted to support the early church and is only mentioned a little here and there can hardly be worthy of such peril?

I do not think you are a hypocrit, just a younger brother who is a little misguided on the gift of tongues, I am sure we all have some misguided ideas.

Calling the things of God the things of the devil is quite a position. Not saying you specifically said this, but I've seen videos where believers say that a person speaking in tongues is having a demonic experience, or such an ability is sourced from the enemy. This is horribly wrong and such a position must assuredly grieves the Holy Spirit because they quench Him when He so desires to operate through believers for the edification of all.

 

[UnderGrace]

I can do that, no problemo is gonna take some time though!!

But I know there probably is no point ... well... I just might do it will see how the Holy Spirit moves.
Stay tuned.

Sure,

And while you're praying please explain why Paul says:

1. Tongues isn't understood by anyone, but God
2. His mind doesn't understand them
3. Nobody understands them so you need an interpreter
4. Paul says they are by his spirit
5. He desires all to pray in tongues
6. Forbid no one to pray in tongues
7. You can stop the spirit speaking through you if you choose
8. You're speaking to God not men
9. Why every example in Acts is speaking to God not men

Yet you ignore all of these things and then label your interpretation "Sound Scripture Interpretation".

Your sound Biblical interpretation will need explain all of 1 Co 14, not just the verses you like.

 

[UnderGrace]

Calling the things of God the things of the devil is quite a position. Not saying you specifically said this, but I've seen videos where believers say that a person speaking in tongues is having a demonic experience, or such an ability is sourced from the enemy. This is horribly wrong and such a position must assuredly grieves the Holy Spirit because they quench Him when He so desires to operate through believers for the edification of all.

Well you quoted me and then tied in this devil idea, I guess I could be offended but I am not.

 

[eph610]

Ok you are forgiven.

Source as yet unknown to you? Common sense. Key idea is self edification, self from the word selfish, self centered. As in excludes God.
Paul is not praising them but correcting them.

The power of God is perfected in our weakness. You insist on making everything into mystic energies when God uses the simple things to accomplish His will. Providing a person to interpret who knows the tongues being spoken is Gods method. Anything else is open to all kinds of subjectivity.

Take that up with God He wrote it. Wrote it for your edification.

Sorry the Holy Spirit does not lead into the fantastic make believe world of Pentecostalism and charismatics. Jesus is the center of all things relating to the Christian experience. Tongues are not. Tongues are a sign for unsaved Jews not a plaything for bored Gentiles.

I would tell you of the thrills of knowing Christ but I don't get the impression that would be sufficient for you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger,
This is not an open invitation to debate, because I simply avoid arguments with brothers like you. I will say this though and never again engage you.

In my experience and in our meetings, I have watched many layman, elders,and even Pastors that talk and walk just the way you do get touched by the Holy Spirit in a way that transforms them completely.

 

[BenFTW]

Well you quoted me and then tied in this devil idea, I guess I could be offended but I am not.

VVell, where that ties in is that you are equally opposed to it as them only you are wise to not call a thing of God demonic. As far as I can tell, you just misunderstand the gift and have no verses to back up your traditional understanding of the gift. Like Cee said, every time you see the gift people are addressing the Father and not preaching to men using the gift. Now, I believe the gift can be used to minister to people, but that's another topic entirely. I am just dumbfounded how so much scripture can be presented to people who oppose this gift, and somehow they remain oblivious to the verses. As if they are blinded to the truth, or something.

Remember I did say, "Not saying you specifically said this." There is no reason for offense.

 

[UnderGrace]

VVell, where that ties in is that you are equally opposed to it as them only you are wise to not call a thing of God demonic. As far as I can tell, you just misunderstand the gift and have no verses to back up your traditional understanding of the gift. Like Cee said, every time you see the gift people are addressing the Father and not preaching to men using the gift. Now, I believe the gift can be used to minister to people, but that's another topic entirely. I am just dumbfounded how so much scripture can be presented to people who oppose this gift, and somehow they remain oblivious to the verses. As if they are blinded to the truth, or something.

Remember I did say, "Not saying you specifically said this." There is no reason for offense.

Well I think if one took a poll the tongue prayers/believers would certainly outnumber the non tongue prayers/believers probably 3 to 1 if not more.

Having said that, since I am not a church person, I am just truly shocked at how differently people can view one chapter in the Bible.... baffling really.

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

To be fair, not many of us oppose the gift of tongues as uttered by the Holy Spirit.
We do find in scripture the order in which tongues will happen and find that when this order is not upheld, it is out of order. Since God is a God of order, without order it is not from God.

Thus, as the bible exhorts us, we do test all things and discern all things to ensure that it is indeed from God . As we know, the enemy does come with lying signs and wonders. Without discernment, we can fall prey to assuming they are from God.

Once again, the gift of tongues is very real, and the Holy Spirit will give utterance in tongues to whom He pleases when it serves His purpose and it will be done in His order.

 

[BenFTW]

Well I think if one took a poll the tongue prayers/believers would certainly outnumber the non tongue prayers/believers probably 3 to 1 if not more.

Having said that, since I am not a church person, I am just truly shocked at how differently people can view one chapter in the Bible.... baffling really.

How do you rationalize so many verses away though, that obviously contradict the traditional understanding of tongues at Pentecost? You keep saying tongues are used to preach the Gospel to people in their own dialect but Cee, and I, are waiting for you to present scripture that reveals this evangelism technique in action.

Now, as I said, I am not saying the gift of tongues is incapable of such a feat (for specific reasons, such that the Lord is guiding the utterance). I am just simply asking you to review scripture, 1 Corinthians 14 in particular. Compare it to what happened at Pentecost. Even at Pentecost you'll notice the people speaking in tongues weren't even addressing the Jews present but the Father, speaking to the Lord (magnifying Him). You'll also notice the apostle Paul speaking of praying in the Spirit (praying in tongues), and singing in the Spirit (singing in tongues). In Jude 20, again praying in the Holy Spirit to build one's most holy faith.

All I am asking you to do is read scripture again with an open mind that maybe there is more to tongues than meets the eye.

 

[BenFTW]

To be fair, not many of us oppose the gift of tongues as uttered by the Holy Spirit.
We do find in scripture the order in which tongues will happen and find that when this order is not upheld, it is out of order. Since God is a God of order, without order it is not from God.

Thus, as the bible exhorts us, we do test all things and discern all things to ensure that it is indeed from God . As we know, the enemy does come with lying signs and wonders. Without discernment, we can fall prey to assuming they are from God.

Once again, the gift of tongues is very real, and the Holy Spirit will give utterance in tongues to whom He pleases when it serves His purpose and it will be done in His order.

The problem with this line of thought is that it denies the volition of the tongue speaker. He/she chooses when to speak in tongues, or the Lord can give him/her an unction to do so. You see, the apostle Paul was correcting a misuse of this gift and for you to say that it is the Holy Spirit who initiates this gift, you then say that the Spirit is the author of confusion at Corinth. You see? If the gift cannot be used at the tongue speaker's volition, then its misuse (operation of) is being attributed to the Lord. You then blame God for the disorder.

People need to understand that the gift of tongues is a volitional gift. Any tongue speaker can speak in tongues at will, and when that happens the Holy Spirit gives our spirit the utterance (of what to say). It just rolls of the tongue. Keep in mind that if the apostle Paul is telling people to speak in order and to keep silent if there is no interpreter this means the tongue speaker is in control of his/her lips. This means the gift is under the control of the believer, and it is operated when the believer decides to use it. Again, the apostle Paul told them to be silent (not use tongues) if there is no interpreter. VVhich means it is possible for one to use tongues with no interpreter, and if this gift is not volitional then you blame God for such disorder.

 

[eph610]

The problem with this line of thought is that it denies the volition of the tongue speaker. He/she chooses when to speak in tongues, or the Lord can give him/her an unction to do so. You see, the apostle Paul was correcting a misuse of this gift and for you to say that it is the Holy Spirit who initiates this gift, you then say that the Spirit is the author of confusion at Corinth. You see? If the gift cannot be used at the tongue speaker's volition, then its misuse (operation of) is being attributed to the Lord. You then blame God for the disorder.

People need to understand that the gift of tongues is a volitional gift. Any tongue speaker can speak in tongues at will, and when that happens the Holy Spirit gives our spirit the utterance (of what to say). It just rolls of the tongue. Keep in mind that if the apostle Paul is telling people to speak in order and to keep silent if there is no interpreter this means the tongue speaker is in control of his/her lips. This means the gift is under the control of the believer, and it is operated when the believer decides to use it. Again, the apostle Paul told them to be silent (not use tongues) if there is no interpreter. VVhich means it is possible for one to use tongues with no interpreter, and if this gift is not volitional then you blame God for such disorder.

Ben,
Not everyone believes tongues are 2 fold , Some may only believe the 1 Cor 12 various kinds of tongues[message in tongues] and that must have an interpretation. Those that may believe this way also believe that is what Paul was taking about in 1 Cor 14. Those other may also not believe in the other form of tongues, charismatics call "heavenly prayer language".