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P
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e]is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
I believe that the restrained is the holy spirit...so how can the church function?
Also vrs 10 suggest that if they knew Jesus they would be saved from what is about to take place.
Those that die instead of taking the mark have to die by there own will, holy spirit not present
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e]is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
I believe that the restrained is the holy spirit...so how can the church function?
Also vrs 10 suggest that if they knew Jesus they would be saved from what is about to take place.
Those that die instead of taking the mark have to die by there own will, holy spirit not present
Hi popeye 
I am a post-trib rapture believer. People tend to get overly passionate about their rapture timing beliefs which is sad because rapture timing should not be seen as a central doctrine of our faith. It is a disputable matter. We should not be straining at a gnat.
You asked for our input on the matter. So here goes.. One step at a time..
The Day of the Lord is the Day of the Messiah's Second Coming Jesus describes what will happen on that day. I will bold the words i wish you to take close note of.
Matthew 24
27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So After the tribulation Jesus will return and gather the elect to Him.
There is another Rapture verse spoken of by Jesus that links the Day of the Lord to the Rapture.
Luke 17
29but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31" In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."
When will the Son of Man (Messiah Jesus) be revealed? At His second coming the Day of the Lord. Who will take the sleeping man and the woman grinding and the man working in the field? The angels sent out in Matthew 24 verse 21
It is also nice to note that Jesus revealed that this will be a world wide event because at the time of His return it will be day on one half of the world "In that day" and it will be night on the other half of the world "in that night"
Also this will be an event that will take place in a twinkling of an eye. Paul reveals the rapture and its timing at the Last trumpet this scripture is probably the best rapture supporting scripture in the bible:
1 Corrinthians15:
49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:
51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.
So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.
So from what we have read the first resurrection and the rapture (although different experiences for them that take part) will happen at the same instant in time at the sounding of the last trumpet.
So now we go on to the next scripture showing the last trumpet being revealed in the book of Revelation:
Revelation10
7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:
Revelation 8
12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.
I hope this has been a blessing to you popeye But no matter what you come to believe on the issue of rapture timing as long as we are ready to die today and face the Lord we are ready for rapture no matter when it happens and we are ready for tribulation no matter where it comes from
I am a post-trib rapture believer. People tend to get overly passionate about their rapture timing beliefs which is sad because rapture timing should not be seen as a central doctrine of our faith. It is a disputable matter. We should not be straining at a gnat.
You asked for our input on the matter. So here goes.. One step at a time..
The Day of the Lord is the Day of the Messiah's Second Coming Jesus describes what will happen on that day. I will bold the words i wish you to take close note of.
Matthew 24
27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So After the tribulation Jesus will return and gather the elect to Him.
There is another Rapture verse spoken of by Jesus that links the Day of the Lord to the Rapture.
Luke 17
29but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31" In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."
When will the Son of Man (Messiah Jesus) be revealed? At His second coming the Day of the Lord. Who will take the sleeping man and the woman grinding and the man working in the field? The angels sent out in Matthew 24 verse 21
It is also nice to note that Jesus revealed that this will be a world wide event because at the time of His return it will be day on one half of the world "In that day" and it will be night on the other half of the world "in that night"
Also this will be an event that will take place in a twinkling of an eye. Paul reveals the rapture and its timing at the Last trumpet this scripture is probably the best rapture supporting scripture in the bible:
1 Corrinthians15:
49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:
51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.
So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.
So from what we have read the first resurrection and the rapture (although different experiences for them that take part) will happen at the same instant in time at the sounding of the last trumpet.
So now we go on to the next scripture showing the last trumpet being revealed in the book of Revelation:
Revelation10
7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:
Revelation 8
12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.
I hope this has been a blessing to you popeye
But no matter what you come to believe on the issue of rapture timing as long as we are ready to die today and face the Lord we are ready for rapture no matter when it happens and we are ready for tribulation no matter where it comes from 
P
Hi popeye
I am a post-trib rapture believer. People tend to get overly passionate about their rapture timing beliefs which is sad because rapture timing should not be seen as a central doctrine of our faith. It is a disputable matter. We should not be straining at a gnat.
You asked for our input on the matter. So here goes.. One step at a time..
The Day of the Lord is the Day of the Messiah's Second Coming Jesus describes what will happen on that day. I will bold the words i wish you to take close note of.
Matthew 24
27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So After the tribulation Jesus will return and gather the elect to Him.
There is another Rapture verse spoken of by Jesus that links the Day of the Lord to the Rapture.
Luke 17
29but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31" In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."
When will the Son of Man (Messiah Jesus) be revealed? At His second coming the Day of the Lord. Who will take the sleeping man and the woman grinding and the man working in the field? The angels sent out in Matthew 24 verse 21
It is also nice to note that Jesus revealed that this will be a world wide event because at the time of His return it will be day on one half of the world "In that day" and it will be night on the other half of the world "in that night"
Also this will be an event that will take place in a twinkling of an eye. Paul reveals the rapture and its timing at the Last trumpet this scripture is probably the best rapture supporting scripture in the bible:
1 Corrinthians15:
49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:
51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.
So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.
So from what we have read the first resurrection and the rapture (although different experiences for them that take part) will happen at the same instant in time at the sounding of the last trumpet.
So now we go on to the next scripture showing the last trumpet being revealed in the book of Revelation:
Revelation10
7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:
Revelation 8
12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.
I hope this has been a blessing to you popeye But no matter what you come to believe on the issue of rapture timing as long as we are ready to die today and face the Lord we are ready for rapture no matter when it happens and we are ready for tribulation no matter where it comes from
I am a post-trib rapture believer. People tend to get overly passionate about their rapture timing beliefs which is sad because rapture timing should not be seen as a central doctrine of our faith. It is a disputable matter. We should not be straining at a gnat.
You asked for our input on the matter. So here goes.. One step at a time..
The Day of the Lord is the Day of the Messiah's Second Coming Jesus describes what will happen on that day. I will bold the words i wish you to take close note of.
Matthew 24
27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So After the tribulation Jesus will return and gather the elect to Him.
There is another Rapture verse spoken of by Jesus that links the Day of the Lord to the Rapture.
Luke 17
29but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31" In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."
When will the Son of Man (Messiah Jesus) be revealed? At His second coming the Day of the Lord. Who will take the sleeping man and the woman grinding and the man working in the field? The angels sent out in Matthew 24 verse 21
It is also nice to note that Jesus revealed that this will be a world wide event because at the time of His return it will be day on one half of the world "In that day" and it will be night on the other half of the world "in that night"
Also this will be an event that will take place in a twinkling of an eye. Paul reveals the rapture and its timing at the Last trumpet this scripture is probably the best rapture supporting scripture in the bible:
1 Corrinthians15:
49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:
51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.
So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.
So from what we have read the first resurrection and the rapture (although different experiences for them that take part) will happen at the same instant in time at the sounding of the last trumpet.
So now we go on to the next scripture showing the last trumpet being revealed in the book of Revelation:
Revelation10
7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:
Revelation 8
12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.
I hope this has been a blessing to you popeye
But no matter what you come to believe on the issue of rapture timing as long as we are ready to die today and face the Lord we are ready for rapture no matter when it happens and we are ready for tribulation no matter where it comes from
Not the rapture.
1) ANGELS are doing the gathering,not Jesus
2) The elect are gathered from heaven,not earth.
3) no dead in christ raised
You just taught me something I never saw before.
NOTICE THE SETTING. It is Lot and his wife. That is a pretrib dynamic you just supported.
THANKS!!!
The last trump is blown every year at the feast of trumpets.
In a moment, in thetwinkling of an eye, at the lasttrump: for the trumpet shallsound, and the dead shall beraised incorruptible, and weshall be changed.
Notice that the dead are raised at this particular "trump"
1 thes 4 says the dead rise first,THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE.
So,the dead rise first,no?
If there is a gathering by Jesus in rev 14,that means YOU ARE PLACING the dead rising AFTER THE LIVING.
you have not yet presented ANY post trib rapture verses
R
When you have been taught something all your life it is a very very hard thing to toss it. Which is why in Proverbs it say's to train up a child in the way that He should go and when He is grown he shall not depart from it. It is a very difficult thing to unlearn what you have learned, But, with God all things are possible.
While the OP waits for Bible verses that support a post trib rapture, I still await a single verse which supports any rapture at all, a word that is not even in the Bible. No "rapture" in the Bible! Or show me where the word appears!
1Thess. 4:17 is about meeting and returning! That is the Greek! Never about leaving. Jesus returns and it is all over. No two second comings of Christ - a secret one and then a visible one.
Any kind of rapture is folk theology although some classical dispensationalists might disagree with me, and they might have a point. But all this junk theology is just ridiculous!
1Thess. 4:17 is about meeting and returning! That is the Greek! Never about leaving. Jesus returns and it is all over. No two second comings of Christ - a secret one and then a visible one.
Any kind of rapture is folk theology although some classical dispensationalists might disagree with me, and they might have a point. But all this junk theology is just ridiculous!
Hello Angela,
You are correct in that, the word "rapture" does not appear in the Bible, which is why I don't use it. However, the word "Harpazo" is, which as I am sure that you know is defined as "to seize by force, to snatch up, force suddenly exercised."
It is the same word used when Paul was caught up to the third heaven, when the male child is caught up to God's throne and when he snatched Phillip away, just to name a few. So from the 1 Thes.4:16, we can see that after the resurrection of the dead, the living are then changed and caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. In combination with that scripture, we have John 14:1-3 where Jesus promises the following:
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."
The promise above is synonymous with 1 Thes.4:13-18 and tells us that once believers are caught up, then they will be taken back to the Father's house, which can only be heaven. The scripture states that Jesus went to the Father's house to prepare places for believers and is coming back again to take us to those dwelling places, which again is in the Father's house. This is what takes place when the dead are raised and the living are changed and caught up.
The problem with yours and others claim that the gathering of the church to meet the Lord in the air is synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as described in Mt.24:29-31 and Rev.19:11-21, is that it puts the living church through the entire wrath of God, through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Since God's wrath, that we deserve as a result of our sins, was poured out on Jesus and thereby satisfied, those who are in Christ are not appointed to suffer this coming wrath, for Jesus rescued us from it.
In Rev.19:6-8, we also have the bride/church as already being in heaven receiving her fine clothing, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb, which is then followed by that army who is following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen that she will have just received. In further support of this being the church who is following Christ out of heaven, Rev.17:14 states that it is his "called, chosen and faithful followers" who will be with Christ when he returns to the earth to end the age.
Continuing on, we have the names of the twelve tribes of Israel written on the gates of the new Jerusalem and we have the names of the twelve apostles written on the foundation walls of the new Jerusalem. Twelve representing Israel and twelve representing the church. That being said, in Rev.4 we are introduced to twenty four elders, of which twelve are representing Israel and twelve representing the church. Since those twenty four elders are said to encircle the throne and twelve are representing the church, this would demonstrate that the church is already in heaven, which is also why the word Ekklesia/church is never seen again after the end of chapter 3.
John 14:1-3 which is Jesus promise to return and take believers back to the Father's house must be fulfilled and that because the Lord promised. This distortion of the nature of the catching away and its purpose, is the result of not understanding the severity and magnitude of the God's coming wrath, not understanding that Jesus payment for sins rescues believers from God's coming wrath as described in 1 Thes.1:10 and 5:9 and not understanding that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.
You say that it is junk theology, but I just laid it out for you using sound exegesis. As I have pointed out many times before, there are only two places in Revelation that give a percentage of the fatalities that will occur as a result of God's wrath, one is the result of the first four seals which is a fourth and at the 6th trumpet which is a third. Both of these combined will result in approximately 4.5 billion fatalities by the middle of that seven year period and that does not include trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the results of the seven bowl judgments. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be the fulfillment of the long prophesied "day of the Lord."
Church caught up |<====== Seals, Trumpets and Bowls=======| Christ returns to earth to end age
to meet the Lord |<============Seven Years ===========| and to establish his kingdom
and taken to the
Father's house
You are correct in that, the word "rapture" does not appear in the Bible, which is why I don't use it. However, the word "Harpazo" is, which as I am sure that you know is defined as "to seize by force, to snatch up, force suddenly exercised."
It is the same word used when Paul was caught up to the third heaven, when the male child is caught up to God's throne and when he snatched Phillip away, just to name a few. So from the 1 Thes.4:16, we can see that after the resurrection of the dead, the living are then changed and caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. In combination with that scripture, we have John 14:1-3 where Jesus promises the following:
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."
The promise above is synonymous with 1 Thes.4:13-18 and tells us that once believers are caught up, then they will be taken back to the Father's house, which can only be heaven. The scripture states that Jesus went to the Father's house to prepare places for believers and is coming back again to take us to those dwelling places, which again is in the Father's house. This is what takes place when the dead are raised and the living are changed and caught up.
The problem with yours and others claim that the gathering of the church to meet the Lord in the air is synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as described in Mt.24:29-31 and Rev.19:11-21, is that it puts the living church through the entire wrath of God, through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Since God's wrath, that we deserve as a result of our sins, was poured out on Jesus and thereby satisfied, those who are in Christ are not appointed to suffer this coming wrath, for Jesus rescued us from it.
In Rev.19:6-8, we also have the bride/church as already being in heaven receiving her fine clothing, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb, which is then followed by that army who is following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen that she will have just received. In further support of this being the church who is following Christ out of heaven, Rev.17:14 states that it is his "called, chosen and faithful followers" who will be with Christ when he returns to the earth to end the age.
Continuing on, we have the names of the twelve tribes of Israel written on the gates of the new Jerusalem and we have the names of the twelve apostles written on the foundation walls of the new Jerusalem. Twelve representing Israel and twelve representing the church. That being said, in Rev.4 we are introduced to twenty four elders, of which twelve are representing Israel and twelve representing the church. Since those twenty four elders are said to encircle the throne and twelve are representing the church, this would demonstrate that the church is already in heaven, which is also why the word Ekklesia/church is never seen again after the end of chapter 3.
John 14:1-3 which is Jesus promise to return and take believers back to the Father's house must be fulfilled and that because the Lord promised. This distortion of the nature of the catching away and its purpose, is the result of not understanding the severity and magnitude of the God's coming wrath, not understanding that Jesus payment for sins rescues believers from God's coming wrath as described in 1 Thes.1:10 and 5:9 and not understanding that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.
You say that it is junk theology, but I just laid it out for you using sound exegesis. As I have pointed out many times before, there are only two places in Revelation that give a percentage of the fatalities that will occur as a result of God's wrath, one is the result of the first four seals which is a fourth and at the 6th trumpet which is a third. Both of these combined will result in approximately 4.5 billion fatalities by the middle of that seven year period and that does not include trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the results of the seven bowl judgments. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be the fulfillment of the long prophesied "day of the Lord."
Church caught up |<====== Seals, Trumpets and Bowls=======| Christ returns to earth to end age
to meet the Lord |<============Seven Years ===========| and to establish his kingdom
and taken to the
Father's house
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Hello Cee,
Regarding what Revelation is about, scripture states the following:
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ"
So according to the above, Revelation was given by God the Father to Jesus Christ who gave it to his angel for the purpose of showing his servants (believers) throughout the church period the events that must take place. That said, the majority of Revelation is given to God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The other events are all related to when God's wrath is being poured out such as the time of prophecy of the two witnesses during the first 3 1/2 years and all that the beast and the false prophet will be carrying out during that entire seven years. So, it is about all of those things which is information that God wanted us to study and understand. All of those events of course are leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. But prior to that, Revelation is about the pouring out of God's wrath upon a Christ rejecting world and the campaign of beast and the false prophet.
As for the second temple being destroyed, there is nothing at all mentioned in Revelation regarding that event. For the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place during the last seven years leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age, which haven't even begun yet. And as you know, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
Regarding what Revelation is about, scripture states the following:
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ"
So according to the above, Revelation was given by God the Father to Jesus Christ who gave it to his angel for the purpose of showing his servants (believers) throughout the church period the events that must take place. That said, the majority of Revelation is given to God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The other events are all related to when God's wrath is being poured out such as the time of prophecy of the two witnesses during the first 3 1/2 years and all that the beast and the false prophet will be carrying out during that entire seven years. So, it is about all of those things which is information that God wanted us to study and understand. All of those events of course are leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. But prior to that, Revelation is about the pouring out of God's wrath upon a Christ rejecting world and the campaign of beast and the false prophet.
As for the second temple being destroyed, there is nothing at all mentioned in Revelation regarding that event. For the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place during the last seven years leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age, which haven't even begun yet. And as you know, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
D
Re: The Rapture is not Scriptural.
Please note that this is NOT my work. Please further note that I am not a Roman Catholic, and I do have some issues with Popes and Papacy, but the following is a good argument. I do of course give proper attribution to the author.
Question: A friend of mine has been reading the Left Behind books that have all of this stuff about the “Rapture” in them. Is there really going to be a “Rapture” like these books talk about?
Answer: No.The “Rapture” refers to a passage in First Thessalonians 4, where Christians are “caught up” in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” Many Christians believe, and the Left Behind books promote, that this being “caught up” to meet the Lord will occur before the Great Tribulation sometime in the near future. Christians will simply vanish, meet Jesus somewhere in the air, and then return with Him to Heaven to await the end of time.
But notice, in verse 15, Paul says that “…we who are alive, who are left,” shall be caught up. This is a very important point to stress to rapture enthusiasts. Those who are “left” get caught up to meet the Lord. Keep that in mind as we look at these next couple of Scripture passages.
The Left Behind books get their name from a passage in Luke 17, and a similar passage in Matthew 24, which compares the coming of the Lord to the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Matthew 24 puts it this way: “As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man…[they ate, they drank, they married] and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. Then two men will be in the field, one is taken and one is left. Two women grinding at the mill, one is taken one is left.”
“One is taken, one is left” — the Rapture right? Jesus takes the Christians and leaves behind non-Christians!
That’s how rapture enthusiasts interpret these passages. Well, you need to say to them: “Not so fast, folks.” Two problems with the Protestant "Left Behind” interpretation: First, in the passages from Luke 17 and Matthew 24, Jesus’ coming is compared to the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Let’s think about that for a moment. After the flood, who was left? Noah and his family — the good guys. The bad guys were taken and the good guys were left behind! After Sodom and Gomorrah went up in smoke, who was left? Lot and his daughters — the good guys. The bad guys were taken and the good guys were left behind!
The second problem with the “Left Behind” interpretation, has to do with what I mentioned above: 1 Thessalonians 4 says that those who are “left” get to meet Jesus in the air. You want to be left behind. Why? Because those who are left behind get to meet Jesus on His return to earth. Again, when you put 1 Thessalonians 4 together with Matthew 24 and Luke 17, it becomes quite apparent that the good guys are the ones left behind to meet Jesus.
And, if you need further proof of that, there’s a passage in Matthew 13 that pretty much seals the deal. Matthew 13:39-43, “…and the enemy who sowed them [the bad seed] is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”
So when Scripture says that “one is taken and one is left,” as it does in Luke 17 and Matthew 24, it is not talking about the Rapture, it is talking about the harvest at the close of the age. The ones who are taken, as it says in Matthew 13, are the evildoers. The angels have taken them and tossed them into the furnace of fire. So, theLeft Behind books got it exactly 180 degrees wrong. The ones taken are not the good guys, they are the evildoers. The ones who are left behind are the ones who get to be caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air at His Second Coming, when He will bring all of the angels and saints with Him and there will be a new Heaven and a new earth.
In other words, there will be no Rapture like the one the Left Behind books talk about. The Left Behind books teach the opposite of what Scripture actually says.
John Martignoni is a nationally-known Catholic apologist and Bible scholar. He is the Founder and President of the Bible Christian Society, where you can find lots of free apologetics materials — CD’s, mp3 downloads, e-newsletters, and more, and host of EWTN’s “Open Line” airing on Mondays at 3 p.m. EST. He is also Director of the Office of the New Evangelization in the Diocese of Birmingham, Alabama.
Please note that this is NOT my work. Please further note that I am not a Roman Catholic, and I do have some issues with Popes and Papacy, but the following is a good argument. I do of course give proper attribution to the author.
Question: A friend of mine has been reading the Left Behind books that have all of this stuff about the “Rapture” in them. Is there really going to be a “Rapture” like these books talk about?
Answer: No.The “Rapture” refers to a passage in First Thessalonians 4, where Christians are “caught up” in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” Many Christians believe, and the Left Behind books promote, that this being “caught up” to meet the Lord will occur before the Great Tribulation sometime in the near future. Christians will simply vanish, meet Jesus somewhere in the air, and then return with Him to Heaven to await the end of time.
But notice, in verse 15, Paul says that “…we who are alive, who are left,” shall be caught up. This is a very important point to stress to rapture enthusiasts. Those who are “left” get caught up to meet the Lord. Keep that in mind as we look at these next couple of Scripture passages.
The Left Behind books get their name from a passage in Luke 17, and a similar passage in Matthew 24, which compares the coming of the Lord to the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Matthew 24 puts it this way: “As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man…[they ate, they drank, they married] and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. Then two men will be in the field, one is taken and one is left. Two women grinding at the mill, one is taken one is left.”
“One is taken, one is left” — the Rapture right? Jesus takes the Christians and leaves behind non-Christians!
That’s how rapture enthusiasts interpret these passages. Well, you need to say to them: “Not so fast, folks.” Two problems with the Protestant "Left Behind” interpretation: First, in the passages from Luke 17 and Matthew 24, Jesus’ coming is compared to the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Let’s think about that for a moment. After the flood, who was left? Noah and his family — the good guys. The bad guys were taken and the good guys were left behind! After Sodom and Gomorrah went up in smoke, who was left? Lot and his daughters — the good guys. The bad guys were taken and the good guys were left behind!
The second problem with the “Left Behind” interpretation, has to do with what I mentioned above: 1 Thessalonians 4 says that those who are “left” get to meet Jesus in the air. You want to be left behind. Why? Because those who are left behind get to meet Jesus on His return to earth. Again, when you put 1 Thessalonians 4 together with Matthew 24 and Luke 17, it becomes quite apparent that the good guys are the ones left behind to meet Jesus.
And, if you need further proof of that, there’s a passage in Matthew 13 that pretty much seals the deal. Matthew 13:39-43, “…and the enemy who sowed them [the bad seed] is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”
So when Scripture says that “one is taken and one is left,” as it does in Luke 17 and Matthew 24, it is not talking about the Rapture, it is talking about the harvest at the close of the age. The ones who are taken, as it says in Matthew 13, are the evildoers. The angels have taken them and tossed them into the furnace of fire. So, theLeft Behind books got it exactly 180 degrees wrong. The ones taken are not the good guys, they are the evildoers. The ones who are left behind are the ones who get to be caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air at His Second Coming, when He will bring all of the angels and saints with Him and there will be a new Heaven and a new earth.
In other words, there will be no Rapture like the one the Left Behind books talk about. The Left Behind books teach the opposite of what Scripture actually says.
John Martignoni is a nationally-known Catholic apologist and Bible scholar. He is the Founder and President of the Bible Christian Society, where you can find lots of free apologetics materials — CD’s, mp3 downloads, e-newsletters, and more, and host of EWTN’s “Open Line” airing on Mondays at 3 p.m. EST. He is also Director of the Office of the New Evangelization in the Diocese of Birmingham, Alabama.
D