A empowered and working grace
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I have to say miknik5, I do not mind your approach me being the big
bad person, but I meant nothing by making a mistake.
As they say, which I probably should not, take a chill pill.
I was just trying to understand the verses you chose.
We are not kids here and to be honest issues around the Holy Spirit I had one
to one detailed discussions about this in the 70's as a teenager, and seeing
churches split etc. So just spit it out, if you think I could be a cessionist which
I am not, or someone against the working of the Holy Spirit.
What I am into is truth and integrity, purity and holiness, and people knowing
maturity in the Lord. My wife would say I have never grown up, so maybe
maturity in one sense means something different to most, but speaking from
the heart and not faking it, now that is reality.
But some seem to think Jesus never addressed these types of issues.
Funny that. And so many mature people around to put me in my place and such
simple stuff missed. Wonder what is really going on?
bad person, but I meant nothing by making a mistake.
As they say, which I probably should not, take a chill pill.
I was just trying to understand the verses you chose.
We are not kids here and to be honest issues around the Holy Spirit I had one
to one detailed discussions about this in the 70's as a teenager, and seeing
churches split etc. So just spit it out, if you think I could be a cessionist which
I am not, or someone against the working of the Holy Spirit.
What I am into is truth and integrity, purity and holiness, and people knowing
maturity in the Lord. My wife would say I have never grown up, so maybe
maturity in one sense means something different to most, but speaking from
the heart and not faking it, now that is reality.
But some seem to think Jesus never addressed these types of issues.
Funny that. And so many mature people around to put me in my place and such
simple stuff missed. Wonder what is really going on?
Eg - Duh - I do not understand something referred to somewhere else and not specified.
Who is them, what have I got wrong, what is their belief and what do I say it is?
You repeat the words constantly with no content, like a recurring advertising hording, but it
just works like a lie and slander, intended to annoy, discourage and put people off. Bit lame actually.
Ofcourse if you brought facts, the issue would die, and so would this tactic. I know you too well
my friend, tooooooo welllllllllll. What trick will you tryyyyyy tommmmmmorrowwww. A clown uniform
maybe.
Who is them, what have I got wrong, what is their belief and what do I say it is?
You repeat the words constantly with no content, like a recurring advertising hording, but it
just works like a lie and slander, intended to annoy, discourage and put people off. Bit lame actually.
Ofcourse if you brought facts, the issue would die, and so would this tactic. I know you too well
my friend, tooooooo welllllllllll. What trick will you tryyyyyy tommmmmmorrowwww. A clown uniform
maybe.
E
This is precisely why I rested my case. And still do
it is not about me peter, It is about truth..
I brough facts yesterday, You still to this minute have not responded to a particular post I made where you cut up a post I made, then went on a rant about something I never even said or intended to say, And claimed this is what I meant.
I can take us back to a thread long since closed. Where I had to point by point refute false accusations you made against grace believers, Where you never acknowledged you were even wrong. But as always you attack people.
And multiple people can show where you have slandered them, and when confronted, totally ignore their response, Deny any wrong doing, Then post after post you judge people of slandering you, Even though THeY HAVE PROVEN WHAT THEY SAID.
So please peter. Get off your pride. Stop trying to judge people for the very things you do. and plase please. Learn some humility.
Otherwise. Please please. Go try to find some. Because it is obvious you have an agenda here. And it is NOT to learn the word of God.. You can't learn when you are set in your ways..
it is not about me peter, It is about truth..
I brough facts yesterday, You still to this minute have not responded to a particular post I made where you cut up a post I made, then went on a rant about something I never even said or intended to say, And claimed this is what I meant.
I can take us back to a thread long since closed. Where I had to point by point refute false accusations you made against grace believers, Where you never acknowledged you were even wrong. But as always you attack people.
And multiple people can show where you have slandered them, and when confronted, totally ignore their response, Deny any wrong doing, Then post after post you judge people of slandering you, Even though THeY HAVE PROVEN WHAT THEY SAID.
So please peter. Get off your pride. Stop trying to judge people for the very things you do. and plase please. Learn some humility.
Otherwise. Please please. Go try to find some. Because it is obvious you have an agenda here. And it is NOT to learn the word of God.. You can't learn when you are set in your ways..
Yes, this is what I said---->>>>
Some people have trouble reading the small print.
Some people have trouble reading the small print.
Yes. This is a very interesting verse and it is good to understand the verse, as well as the context within which the verse sits:
Galatians 5:
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Vs 1 – we are instructed to firmly stand (not be moved) from the liberty we have in Christ Jesus. As we abide in our Lord Jesus Christ, we are truly free from the yoke of bondage whereby we were condemned before God due to our inability to keep the law (because of the weakness of our flesh).
Vs 4 - those who maintain their justification through keeping the law have fallen from grace and from the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free.
Vs 5 – through the Spirit, we wait with eager anticipation for the righteousness we will be clothed with in eternity. And we wait, patiently, by faith. We have faith in the promise of God and we are fully persuaded that what He has promised He is able to perform.
Vs 6 – I love this verse. In Jesus Christ ... faith which worketh by love. The words "which worketh" are the Greek word energeō. Faith is energized by love. Love energizes faith within the believer. The more we love, we grow stronger in faith. And all this takes place as we remain in Jesus Christ. Isn't that just beautiful?
So we see from these verses that if we turn back to striving in and of ourselves to be justified before God, we have fallen from the grace our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has made us truly free to walk in. And we also see that faith is energized by love. Wonderful truths by which to live.
If truth was what you stood for you would bring it.
I just respond to the immediate situation, like this slander and lying.
Bring your facts my friend or you are just a slanderer and liar.
You by your behaviour prove my case for me. It is the behaviour of a slanderer and liar.
I am happy that you wish to behave for what you are. I just praise Jesus he knows who
I am, saved in His love and with my sins forgiven through the cross.
Show me my sin so I can repent before the Lord or stop lying. Which is it my friend or are
you the accuser of the brethren which you behave like?
I just respond to the immediate situation, like this slander and lying.
Bring your facts my friend or you are just a slanderer and liar.
You by your behaviour prove my case for me. It is the behaviour of a slanderer and liar.
I am happy that you wish to behave for what you are. I just praise Jesus he knows who
I am, saved in His love and with my sins forgiven through the cross.
Show me my sin so I can repent before the Lord or stop lying. Which is it my friend or are
you the accuser of the brethren which you behave like?
I apologise for not giving attention to your gripe. I have no obligation to,
because after you continual deluge of lies and slander, I gave up the requirement to
pay it any real attention. So please tell me what area of your pride I hurt and where
was the sin? Pardon me if I do not regard it as sin which in you pomposity might feel is bad
and that you might come out feeling worse as a result. The truth as they say can really hurt
so do you want to go there.
because after you continual deluge of lies and slander, I gave up the requirement to
pay it any real attention. So please tell me what area of your pride I hurt and where
was the sin? Pardon me if I do not regard it as sin which in you pomposity might feel is bad
and that you might come out feeling worse as a result. The truth as they say can really hurt
so do you want to go there.
Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”
1 cor 15:33
See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
Heb 12:15
Interesting choice of verses. I remember grace777 or Bruce you saying people could
not be defiled, changed you mind today? lol
And are you righteous, holy and pure with a good character?
Sounds a bit self righteous for a man like you.
I thought being down with the sinners was more your style.
If you wanted to choose typical pompous verses you could not have chosen another
couple than these. But then hypocrites always are super sensitive to the very things
they hate about themselves.
1 cor 15:33
See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
Heb 12:15
Interesting choice of verses. I remember grace777 or Bruce you saying people could
not be defiled, changed you mind today? lol
And are you righteous, holy and pure with a good character?
Sounds a bit self righteous for a man like you.
I thought being down with the sinners was more your style.
If you wanted to choose typical pompous verses you could not have chosen another
couple than these. But then hypocrites always are super sensitive to the very things
they hate about themselves.
A lot of people try to pit Paul's teachings against James who preached a faith without works is a dead faith, but Paul was not saying righteous works would not come by an empowered grace through faith, just that we are not justified by our own works of the law.
If you look at that verse I quoted earlier in Galatians 5:6 about a faith that works (empowered, energized) by Love, you can see the same thing is being said in James...
James 2:26
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
So what makes the body alive in the above example? It is the Spirit. So like the body is "empowered or energized" by the Spirit of God, so is faith made alive by the works of love.
So the grace of God in Jesus Christ empowers a faith that works righteous works by the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
If you look at that verse I quoted earlier in Galatians 5:6 about a faith that works (empowered, energized) by Love, you can see the same thing is being said in James...
James 2:26
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
So what makes the body alive in the above example? It is the Spirit. So like the body is "empowered or energized" by the Spirit of God, so is faith made alive by the works of love.
So the grace of God in Jesus Christ empowers a faith that works righteous works by the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
Real faith will have a work associated with it and that is to first believe as Jesus shows us.
The work of faith is to believe in what Christ has done in His death on the cross, burial, resurrection and ascension and the fact that we have had all those things happened to us too.
We died with Christ, were buried, was raised to new life and we are seated with Christ now at the right hand of the Father.
John 6:28-29 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Right believing in what Christ has already done will release the empowering grace of God to do what it is Christ wants to do in and through us.
Galatians 2:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." ( the Law is self-effort/self-righteousness/holiness by doing good deeds )
The work of faith is to believe in what Christ has done in His death on the cross, burial, resurrection and ascension and the fact that we have had all those things happened to us too.
We died with Christ, were buried, was raised to new life and we are seated with Christ now at the right hand of the Father.
John 6:28-29 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Right believing in what Christ has already done will release the empowering grace of God to do what it is Christ wants to do in and through us.
Galatians 2:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." ( the Law is self-effort/self-righteousness/holiness by doing good deeds )
So are you claiming that all the Old Testament saints were not saved, and are now in hell? Because Hebrews 11, suggests otherwise! I suggest you read it all, rather than me copying and pasting it here. But I will note a few verses:
"But they now desire a better place—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them." Hebrews 11:16
In this verse, God says they are awaiting a better place! He is their God, and they are going to be with us in eternity!
"All these were approved through their faith, but they did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, so that they would not be made perfect without us." Hebrews 11:39-40
So, yes, the cross needed to happen, but these people knew God and were awaiting his coming. That anticipation, plus the gift of faith, says they were much more than people who only occasionally had the Holy Spirit. To prophecy - yes, you needed the Holy Spirit to lead and guide. But to believe?
They believed by faith! Just like we do! How did they get that faith? By God's grace!
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:8-10
So the OT believers were given the same grace as we are. This is a serious doctrinal error, to think the OT believers did not have the grace of God, and were not saved by faith. I would suggest you read "The Gospel According to Moses" and "How I love your Torah, O Lord" by renowned Hebrew scholar Daniel Block. The insight he has received from his extensive study of the OT was communicated at a course I took for him on the Gospel according to Moses! It helped me to dispell the myth that there is a dicotomy between OT and NT believers, and showed me that grace was given both before and after the cross!
"For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law (ie. The Torah) was given (ἐδόθη) through Moses; grace and truth came (ἐγένετο) through Jesus Christ." John 1:16-17
"Contrary to the interpretation of this verse suggeseted by the adversative conjuction, "but" in the KJV, the contrast is NOT between the law and grace, but between the two ways in which grace has been communicated in two climactic moments in time:
1. The grace of the Torah was mediated through Moses,
2. Grace and truth have been personified in Christ.
The giving of the Torah was a climatic moment of divine grace. Yahweh's rescue of Israel was significant both soteriologically and judicially. He freed his chosen people from slavish vassaldom in Egypt and claimed them as his own vassals, a status symbolised by stipulations, decrees and laws, to which he demanded compliance.
But these laws were not to be viewed as a burden laid on the shoulders that was so heavy that no one could carry it. That is NOT grace! That is tyranny and deceit! To Moses, receiving the revelation of God's will was a supreme privilege- and the more detailed the revelation, the greater the privilege! The Israelites had been delivered from the bondage of Egypt that they might become the privileged servants of Yahweh, in fact his sons!" (Page 12 How I love Your Torah, O Lord."
"You are the sons of the Lord your God." Deut. 14:1a
"But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name," John 1:1
This whole philosophy that the OT saints were not part of the Kingdom of God, is just utter nonsense. It puts God in a box that is simply not there in either the OT or the NT. That box is time, and saying that only "NT" believers are saved. Because God put a line in the sand, and only after 33 AD (or whatever the actual year was!) were people saved! NO!
Besides, you hypergrace people are the ones who are always saying that when we are saved we are forgiven our sins, past, present and future. Why? I assume because God is above time, as I have posted many times. He sees it all - the past present and future.
Yet although you want to claim God has totally forgiven all your sins on the basis of his precognition of all of eternity, you want to confine the OT believers to not being saved because of a minor thing like being born before the promise?
Those believers not only knew grace by faith, they were anticipating the Messiah, as over 300 prophecies in the OT predict! By faith, they knew Jesus was coming! By faith, they anticipated his coming and that he would save his people from their sins!
Just as by faith, we anticipate the return of Jesus Christ, and the fullness of the Kingdom of God.
PS. This does not make me a Messianic believer! This should be something all Christians properly understand.
"But they now desire a better place—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them." Hebrews 11:16
In this verse, God says they are awaiting a better place! He is their God, and they are going to be with us in eternity!
"All these were approved through their faith, but they did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, so that they would not be made perfect without us." Hebrews 11:39-40
So, yes, the cross needed to happen, but these people knew God and were awaiting his coming. That anticipation, plus the gift of faith, says they were much more than people who only occasionally had the Holy Spirit. To prophecy - yes, you needed the Holy Spirit to lead and guide. But to believe?
They believed by faith! Just like we do! How did they get that faith? By God's grace!
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:8-10
So the OT believers were given the same grace as we are. This is a serious doctrinal error, to think the OT believers did not have the grace of God, and were not saved by faith. I would suggest you read "The Gospel According to Moses" and "How I love your Torah, O Lord" by renowned Hebrew scholar Daniel Block. The insight he has received from his extensive study of the OT was communicated at a course I took for him on the Gospel according to Moses! It helped me to dispell the myth that there is a dicotomy between OT and NT believers, and showed me that grace was given both before and after the cross!
"For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law (ie. The Torah) was given (ἐδόθη) through Moses; grace and truth came (ἐγένετο) through Jesus Christ." John 1:16-17
"Contrary to the interpretation of this verse suggeseted by the adversative conjuction, "but" in the KJV, the contrast is NOT between the law and grace, but between the two ways in which grace has been communicated in two climactic moments in time:
1. The grace of the Torah was mediated through Moses,
2. Grace and truth have been personified in Christ.
The giving of the Torah was a climatic moment of divine grace. Yahweh's rescue of Israel was significant both soteriologically and judicially. He freed his chosen people from slavish vassaldom in Egypt and claimed them as his own vassals, a status symbolised by stipulations, decrees and laws, to which he demanded compliance.
But these laws were not to be viewed as a burden laid on the shoulders that was so heavy that no one could carry it. That is NOT grace! That is tyranny and deceit! To Moses, receiving the revelation of God's will was a supreme privilege- and the more detailed the revelation, the greater the privilege! The Israelites had been delivered from the bondage of Egypt that they might become the privileged servants of Yahweh, in fact his sons!" (Page 12 How I love Your Torah, O Lord."
"You are the sons of the Lord your God." Deut. 14:1a
"But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name," John 1:1
This whole philosophy that the OT saints were not part of the Kingdom of God, is just utter nonsense. It puts God in a box that is simply not there in either the OT or the NT. That box is time, and saying that only "NT" believers are saved. Because God put a line in the sand, and only after 33 AD (or whatever the actual year was!) were people saved! NO!
Besides, you hypergrace people are the ones who are always saying that when we are saved we are forgiven our sins, past, present and future. Why? I assume because God is above time, as I have posted many times. He sees it all - the past present and future.
Yet although you want to claim God has totally forgiven all your sins on the basis of his precognition of all of eternity, you want to confine the OT believers to not being saved because of a minor thing like being born before the promise?
Those believers not only knew grace by faith, they were anticipating the Messiah, as over 300 prophecies in the OT predict! By faith, they knew Jesus was coming! By faith, they anticipated his coming and that he would save his people from their sins!
Just as by faith, we anticipate the return of Jesus Christ, and the fullness of the Kingdom of God.
PS. This does not make me a Messianic believer! This should be something all Christians properly understand.
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
John 20:21-23
Which is more significant? Jesus breathing on the apostles or giving them the power
to forgive sins, and not forgivng them. That is the verse that stands out to me, because
I am still wondering what Jesus meant. Are all believers born of God able to not forgive
people their sins?
But if you want to say breathing the Holy Spirit on the apostles was significant except
they seemed to take it in their stride. Pentecost though was very different.
God bless you,
John 20:21-23
Which is more significant? Jesus breathing on the apostles or giving them the power
to forgive sins, and not forgivng them. That is the verse that stands out to me, because
I am still wondering what Jesus meant. Are all believers born of God able to not forgive
people their sins?
But if you want to say breathing the Holy Spirit on the apostles was significant except
they seemed to take it in their stride. Pentecost though was very different.
God bless you,