Romans 8:1-2, is conditional
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I believe all who are born again are members in particular of the body of the Lord Jesus Christ and the son/daughter of God walks either in the flesh or in the Spirit.
The believer who walks according to the flesh, while still a member of the body, becomes as Paul describes in Rom 7. It is not until we turn our hearts to the Lord Jesus Christ, put off the old, put on the new, that we enjoy the fruit of no condemnation as shown in Rom 8:1.
The believer who walks according to the flesh, while still a member of the body, becomes as Paul describes in Rom 7. It is not until we turn our hearts to the Lord Jesus Christ, put off the old, put on the new, that we enjoy the fruit of no condemnation as shown in Rom 8:1.
Condemnation does not have to be eternal condemnation. There is temporal condemnation in the Bible as well for the believer.
Romans 14
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
This type of condemnation comes from offending thyself in participating in things against your conscience. It is called sin.
1 Corinthians 11
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
Again, taking the Lord's supper in an unworthy manner brings judgment, condemnation upon a person. We should judge ourselves first that we not be judged by God.
If a believer is not walking after the Spirit but after the flesh, that person is subject to condemnation, temporal judgment in the thing that he allows.
Romans 14
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
This type of condemnation comes from offending thyself in participating in things against your conscience. It is called sin.
1 Corinthians 11
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
Again, taking the Lord's supper in an unworthy manner brings judgment, condemnation upon a person. We should judge ourselves first that we not be judged by God.
If a believer is not walking after the Spirit but after the flesh, that person is subject to condemnation, temporal judgment in the thing that he allows.
Jesus said that there would be tares in with the wheat. In every church gathering there will be tares in there. Many times scripture writers address these "tares" as well as the true "wheat" that are in their midst.
The Lord desires that all men come to repentance and believe in His Son for life and salvation. Rightly discerning that there are "tares" with the "wheat" can bring a lot of things into better focus. We really need to rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal scriptures to us.
There is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus - but we can be fooled by our unrenewed minds. There is a difference between the two Greek nouns "damnation" in 1 Cor. 11:29 which means judgment and in "condemnation" in Rom. 8:1
Just for clarity we can see both of these words used in one verse.
Romans 5:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment ( word used in 1 Cor. 11:29 ) arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, ( word used in Rom. 8:1 ) but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
The reason we have no more condemnation for those that are in Christ is seen in this verse - we should be believing it.
Romans 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation ( Rom. 8:1 Greek word ) to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
We have been declared righteous by the work of Christ which is why we cannot be condemned by God because we are in Christ Himself in our inner man - the new creation - created in righteousness and holiness.
Just some of my thoughts on this...
The Lord desires that all men come to repentance and believe in His Son for life and salvation. Rightly discerning that there are "tares" with the "wheat" can bring a lot of things into better focus. We really need to rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal scriptures to us.
There is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus - but we can be fooled by our unrenewed minds. There is a difference between the two Greek nouns "damnation" in 1 Cor. 11:29 which means judgment and in "condemnation" in Rom. 8:1
Just for clarity we can see both of these words used in one verse.
Romans 5:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment ( word used in 1 Cor. 11:29 ) arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, ( word used in Rom. 8:1 ) but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
The reason we have no more condemnation for those that are in Christ is seen in this verse - we should be believing it.
Romans 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation ( Rom. 8:1 Greek word ) to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
We have been declared righteous by the work of Christ which is why we cannot be condemned by God because we are in Christ Himself in our inner man - the new creation - created in righteousness and holiness.
Just some of my thoughts on this...
G
Excellent, excellent post. There is eternal life only IN Christ. And every believer is IN Christ. There is no eternal condemnation IN Christ.......but there sure is temporal condemnation in this life.
Not one verse in the bible warns believers that their eternal life is in question, they do warn them about temporal condemnation. And it is self imposed, God has given us all the tools and gifts needed to follow His plan. Some believers just don't follow that plan.
Not one verse in the bible warns believers that their eternal life is in question, they do warn them about temporal condemnation. And it is self imposed, God has given us all the tools and gifts needed to follow His plan. Some believers just don't follow that plan.
John was giving a typical greeting of the day to a friend and brother in Christ, Gaius. He was NOT being prophetic about the condition of ALL believers. You read with very little comprehension..... or, perhaps, you see only what you WANT to see, and form it to fit YOUR belief system.
There..... I give you three "witnesses"... therefore, my testimony is "truer"..... by your reckoning.
There..... I give you three "witnesses"... therefore, my testimony is "truer"..... by your reckoning.
E
Why, How can this be, How can a child of God sin (be carnal) and still be saved.
Oh wait, thats right, There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. Who do not spend there time walking after the flesh, But learns to walk after the spirit. Bt as Paul said in romans 7. Not all the time (not perfect)
Thats why Rom 8 is NOT CONDITIONAL except for one thing, CHRIST..
Oh wait, thats right, There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. Who do not spend there time walking after the flesh, But learns to walk after the spirit. Bt as Paul said in romans 7. Not all the time (not perfect)
Thats why Rom 8 is NOT CONDITIONAL except for one thing, CHRIST..
E
Not quite right...
Jesus will not judge the believer at he judgement seat for their SIN, because he took care of the SIN problem over 2000 years.
The Judgement seat of Christ is where we give account of how we let the kingdom of God manifest in us to expand the kingdom.
There is NO condemnation since we are in Christ....PERIOD! Condemnation is from the enemy not Jesus Christ.
We do agree that the context of Romans 8 comes off Roman 7, 6, 5, 4, 3,2 and 1
Jesus will not judge the believer at he judgement seat for their SIN, because he took care of the SIN problem over 2000 years.
The Judgement seat of Christ is where we give account of how we let the kingdom of God manifest in us to expand the kingdom.
There is NO condemnation since we are in Christ....PERIOD! Condemnation is from the enemy not Jesus Christ.
We do agree that the context of Romans 8 comes off Roman 7, 6, 5, 4, 3,2 and 1
L
Deliverance from Bondage
8 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life [SUP][a][/SUP]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
It's a very presumptuous thing for many Christians to actually believe there is NO condemnation on us anymore. It's such a daring thing to believe that God holds us guiltless now. As humans we are too used living as humans under natural laws. We see 1+1=2 at all times.
Being reasonable people we can't help but bring that reasoning into our Christian lives too. But we must actually do exactly that., we must not bring natural laws into our spiritual lives. It's daring to believe the impossible that will actually show us how to live by faith. Hebrews 11:1
11 Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, [SUP][a][/SUP]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].
I don't think it will be possible to accept the truth of no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus until a person begins to start seeing by faith and learning more about grace. Like in the other thread about being seen perfect in God's eyes. Because it's really a matter of Jesus Christ and not us.
And daring to believe the extent of what our salvation really means for us to be IN Christ. This verse in Romans 8 tells about the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus having set us free from the law of sin and death. Grace is giving us what we do not deserve by any means and taking away the law of sin and death. We are now operating under a totally different set of truths for our life now that we are sons of God.
We are new creations in Christ. Old things have past away behold all things have become new. That means more than where we are going to spend eternity. It holds a ton of impact on our lives right this very second.
8 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life [SUP][a][/SUP]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
It's a very presumptuous thing for many Christians to actually believe there is NO condemnation on us anymore. It's such a daring thing to believe that God holds us guiltless now. As humans we are too used living as humans under natural laws. We see 1+1=2 at all times.
Being reasonable people we can't help but bring that reasoning into our Christian lives too. But we must actually do exactly that., we must not bring natural laws into our spiritual lives. It's daring to believe the impossible that will actually show us how to live by faith. Hebrews 11:1
11 Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, [SUP][a][/SUP]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].
I don't think it will be possible to accept the truth of no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus until a person begins to start seeing by faith and learning more about grace. Like in the other thread about being seen perfect in God's eyes. Because it's really a matter of Jesus Christ and not us.
And daring to believe the extent of what our salvation really means for us to be IN Christ. This verse in Romans 8 tells about the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus having set us free from the law of sin and death. Grace is giving us what we do not deserve by any means and taking away the law of sin and death. We are now operating under a totally different set of truths for our life now that we are sons of God.
We are new creations in Christ. Old things have past away behold all things have become new. That means more than where we are going to spend eternity. It holds a ton of impact on our lives right this very second.
Of course they are. They are babes with a fleshly pull on them but they do walk after the Spirit. They are born from above. They do NOT walk after the flesh, even though they pander to the flesh.
Who says they are born again ones? They are still under the Law not under grace.
you forgot a bit. 'I AM carnal, sold under sin.' (7.14) What real Christian could say that of himself?
It is pre-conversion experience when he is under the influence of the Spirit.
This is where he is converted.
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Romans 8.1continues on from 5.21. Romans 6-7 is a parenthesis dealing with problems, as it says. There is no conjunction to 8.1.
For the true believer there can never be any condemnation. He has been justified by His blood (Rom 5.9)
no doubt you will show me where it SAYS that?
A believer CANNOT walk after the flesh. He is born of the Spirit from above. He may simply pander to his flesh for a time. But he does not walk after the flesh. If he did he would prove he had never been a Christian. I can see you are struggling with Romans.
In Romans condemnation is the opposite of justification, and justification is a Forensic term. It is speaking about our legal position in Christ.
All men are either condemned, once for all (1.18-3.20), or are justified in Christ (Rom 3.21-5.21), they are either under the Law or under grace. So it IS speaking of eternal condemnation.
Roman 3.21-5.21 have proved that we are justified. We are accounted as righteous with Christ's righteousness. We cannot therefore be condemned. That is why there is no condemnation in 8.1. As he says later in chapter 8. Because God has justified, who will condemn,
If chapter 8 is not about our eternal condemnation. what is it about? He gives the whole panorama from foreknowledge to glorification,
All men are either condemned, once for all (1.18-3.20), or are justified in Christ (Rom 3.21-5.21), they are either under the Law or under grace. So it IS speaking of eternal condemnation.
Roman 3.21-5.21 have proved that we are justified. We are accounted as righteous with Christ's righteousness. We cannot therefore be condemned. That is why there is no condemnation in 8.1. As he says later in chapter 8. Because God has justified, who will condemn,
If chapter 8 is not about our eternal condemnation. what is it about? He gives the whole panorama from foreknowledge to glorification,
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The Peshitta is 4th century at the earliest. It is the old Syriac which dates earlier. The Greek dates back to 1st century. But we DO NOT HAVE actual manuscripts or versions at those dates. Your statements are therefore incorrect. You are giving to much credence to a few unsophisticated scholars.
The kjv was translated from MS all of which came 1000 years after the original.
The kjv was translated from MS all of which came 1000 years after the original.
1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
carnal = Greek sarkikoi from sarx which means fleshly, having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites; pertains to behavior which is typical of human nature, but with special focus upon more base physical desires.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon says specifically of 1 Cor 3:1,3 "governed by mere human nature, not by the Spirit of God".
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Only those who are born again can serve in newness of spirit.
Every "real Christian" as long as he/she is alive on this earth has to deal with his/her carnal flesh. That is the whole point of Rom 7.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man
The inward man is what is created within at the time the believer is born again. And the born again believer can follow his/her fleshly instincts or he/she can follow the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not until the born again one follows the Lord Jesus Christ that he/she is delivered from the body of this death:
Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh will always serve the law of sin. If/when we put on the Lord Jesus Christ, we are able to overcome the lusts of our flesh:
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts hereof.
I know of no other way to not make provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof. And until the born again one turns from self to the Lord Jesus Christ and puts on the Lord Jesus Christ, the lusts of the flesh will prevail. We may fight against the flesh and try as hard as we can to not sin or become as the Rom 7 guy/gal. But why go through that struggle when the putting on of the Lord Jesus Christ causes those lusts to melt away? No struggle. Just peaceful rest.
You and I are not in agreement concerning the Romans 7 verses. At the very least, please just consider what I am saying to you. Thanks.
carnal = Greek sarkikoi from sarx which means fleshly, having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites; pertains to behavior which is typical of human nature, but with special focus upon more base physical desires.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon says specifically of 1 Cor 3:1,3 "governed by mere human nature, not by the Spirit of God".
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Only those who are born again can serve in newness of spirit.
Every "real Christian" as long as he/she is alive on this earth has to deal with his/her carnal flesh. That is the whole point of Rom 7.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man
The inward man is what is created within at the time the believer is born again. And the born again believer can follow his/her fleshly instincts or he/she can follow the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not until the born again one follows the Lord Jesus Christ that he/she is delivered from the body of this death:
Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh will always serve the law of sin. If/when we put on the Lord Jesus Christ, we are able to overcome the lusts of our flesh:
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts hereof.
I know of no other way to not make provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof. And until the born again one turns from self to the Lord Jesus Christ and puts on the Lord Jesus Christ, the lusts of the flesh will prevail. We may fight against the flesh and try as hard as we can to not sin or become as the Rom 7 guy/gal. But why go through that struggle when the putting on of the Lord Jesus Christ causes those lusts to melt away? No struggle. Just peaceful rest.
You and I are not in agreement concerning the Romans 7 verses. At the very least, please just consider what I am saying to you. Thanks.