Does being left behind during the rapture mean you're eternally condemned

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popeye

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Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The ten horn kingdom will rule for the first three and one half years of the 7 years period,which is the world split in to 10 sections with a leader in each section,in which another horn shall rise after them,who is the beast,who claims to be God by harnessing the power of nature in the middle of the 7 years period,and the saints are given in to his hands for the last three and one half years of the 7 years period.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The last king,the 8th king,the beast,shall destroy the holy and mighty people,and by peace shall destroy many.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

He has power to rule for the last three and one half years,which he can only have that power if God allows him to rule,and it was given to him to make war against the saints,and prevail against them.It was given,given,given,to him to make war against the saints,and prevail against them,which God is allowing him to go against the saints.

Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

When the beast accomplishes to scatter the power of the holy people,all things are finished.

Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

This is the battle of Armageddon,which is part of the wrath of God,when the world attacks Israel,and God fights the world and saves Israel.

Some people say this is at the end of the millennial reign,but at the end of the millennial reign God sends fire down on them,and consumes them,but here God sends more than fire upon them,and then shall be known in the eyes of many nations,which at the end of the millennial reign they already know God,for the Bible says the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD,and there shall be one LORD,and His name one,so during the millennial reign the people that God spared know about God.

God is love,and is a fair God,that does not want any excuses from people concerning their being wrongdoing in not turning to Him as the truth,and the only Savior.

God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,and will let them go far in their rebellion,so there is no excuse on their part,for it will testify that they want nothing to do with the truth,but it is all about people with no personal God above them,and Jesus is not Lord and Savior.

God is going to allow the beast to make war against the saints,and let them go as far as attacking Israel before He puts the world down,and Jesus takes over the world,and rules with His saints.

The 6 trumpets are 6 disasters that the world knows about,but instead of turning to God to help them,they keep trying to solve their own problems,and on the 7th trumpet the saints are united with Christ.

The 6 trumpets,warnings to turn to God as recognize that He is the only help they have to benefit mankind,and to have peace on earth,but the world dismisses them,and keeps trying to solve their problems by their own efforts.

The two witnesses reach out to Israel to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,and even though they have power to cause plagues,and stop the rain,and cause people to perish to those that would try to stop them from reaching out to Israel concerning the truth,and the world witnesses their power,the world still ignores them,and has them killed,and keep trying to do things their way,ignoring that testimony that there is a God.

The beast makes war against the saints,and they are given in to his hands for the last three and one half years of the 7 years period,as further proof that the world does not want anything to do with Christianity,and their belief in a personal God.

The saints are united with Christ.

The wrath of God is poured upon them leading up to the battle of Armageddon,which God throws hailstones at them,the size of a talent,and turns the water in to blood,and scorched them with great heat,the world still blasphemes against God because of their pains and sores,testifying that they want nothing to do with God,and will even go against Israel,further testifying that they want nothing to do with God,and Jesus,and His people that He has turned to Jesus.

When they get to Israel that is when God said His fury will come up in His face,and then He will put down the world,and Jesus will take over the world.

God is love,and a God of chances,and does not want anybody to have an excuse why they rejected truth,that they could not see it,or come to the conclusion of it,so God will allow the people that followed the beast kingdom to go as far as attacking Israel before He puts them down,so it is beyond a shadow of a doubt that they want nothing to do with God,and Jesus.

They rejected the 6 trumpets,they rejected the 2 witnesses reaching out to Israel,after it was shown their power that nobody could stand against them,until the three and one half years is up,rejected the truth by physically attacking the saints,rejected the truth when the wrath of God was thrown at them,causing them pain and sores,and rejected the truth by going against Israel.

Why is God allowing the beast kingdom to make war against the saints,and they are given in to the beasts hands for the last three and one half years of the 7 years period.

Because God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,and since this is a terrible condition of people rejecting the truth,compared to people rejecting the truth in time past,God will let them go as far as attacking Israel before He puts an end to the beast kingdom.

Not to mention that the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ,until the man of sin appears claiming to be God in the middle of the 7 years period,and the beast blasphemes against God and His tabernacle,and those that dwell in heaven,which he would not do that unless the saints were still on earth,for he would not have to go against the truth,unless the truth is on earth,and the saints on earth is the truth.

The beast regards no god,but honors the God of forces,or the evolutionary process,so he blasphemes God,by going against Christianity and those that follow it,by telling the world that their belief is a falsehood,and not the way to achieve peace on earth,and there is no personal God to help them,but people can solve their own problems,by their technology and devices,and the power of nature.

If the saints were not on earth,the beast would not have to go against the truth,for the saints on earth is the truth,by convincing the world to not give heed to their belief in a personal God,which the beast goes against all people that hold unto a belief in a personal God.

There is no pre-trib resurrection,for God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,and it is given unto the beast to make war against the saints,and prevail against them,and they will be given in to his hands for three and one half years,and he will destroy the holy and mighty people,and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,all things shall be finished.

All things shall be finished,which then comes the end when Jesus shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father,which is the 7th trumpet.
No sir. You are wrong.

The innumerable number are in heaven early on in the GT. Those refusing the mark are killed right away.

Your deal has zero concerning the wedding,bride and bridegroom,therefore misses the PURPOSE of the entire end times heartbeat of heaven. Your scenario makes huge jumps in time frames

1 thes 4 has the dead in christ rising BEFORE the living.
Rev 14 has several harvests of people.
Therefore your postrib resurrection is impossible.

Rev 19 has the wedding and saints in heaven as Jesus foretold at the last supper.

....and many more,but I have shown more than enough why postrib rapture is debunked.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Yes.

And I have asked PW several times to give a link to ANYONE with his teaching.

He claims his view is exclusively his own.

That means he has enthroned himself to decide what is figurative and literal.

This breeds error. No accountability.
Sure, see the below link. This is not from me.

Two Olive Trees and Two Lampstands, 2 + 2 witness!

I use a simple rule: Allow the Bible to interpret itself. If the same lesson is found in other places and the figures of speech are defined elsewhere, its a safe bet that when you see it again, that they are related.
 

PlainWord

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Happy birthday Popeye!! Did I just see your avatar turn from 61 to 62?

Wow, 62 and still so much to learn:D:D.
 
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popeye

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Mpaper "Not to mention that the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ,until the man of sin appears claiming to be God in the middle of the 7 years period,and the beast blasphemes against God and His tabernacle,and those that dwell in heaven,which he would not do that unless the saints were still on earth,for he would not have to go against the truth,unless the truth is on earth,and the saints on earth is the truth.
Ok,that is off.

It just says "revealed", as in "come on the scene",or even "we discern clearly it is the devil incarnate" type deal.
A thousand scenarios are possible with revealed.

And apostacia is not directly translated "falling away"
It means "departure" and departure means "to depart". IT LITERALLY MEANS LEAVE. kinda like in 1 thes 4. where the wise virgins LEAVE THE EARTH.

.....and the saints on earth is the truth.
No,no,no
Jesus is truth. no matter if no humans are on earth.

Truth is a person,not saints.
 
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popeye

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There is no pre-trib resurrection,for God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,and it is given unto the beast to make war against the saints,and prevail against them,and they will be given in to his hands for three and one half years,and he will destroy the holy and mighty people,and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,all things shall be finished.
5 wise,5 foolish.
Pretrib rapture.

Lot Noah
Pretrib rapture

1 thes 4
Dead rise first,then the Living ,seconds after,they all meet the groom in the air. 5 foolish virgins stay.
pretrib rapture.

Rev 14 harvests of people.
Pretrib rapture (postrib is impossible, due to the fact you would need the dead rising AFTER THE LIVING)

In fact there are no postrib dynamics of a rescue after judgement.,,,, nothing there.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

They are 2 literal men.
LOL. I guess you either didn't read my post #230 and 235 or they are lost on you. I go through it taking the time to thoroughly explain the Two Witnesses and show their real symbolic meaning and where it comes from. I translate them into literal terms for everyone to understand. Take the time to really read and study everything I wrote in those two posts if you want to gain a better understanding.

I showed the correct way to understand the passage and some people want us to go back to Kindergarten. No thanks. Gave up the spoon feeding some time ago. Said with love, of course. No disrespect meant for you, just your view on this subject.
 
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popeye

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Postrib rapture adherents start with a premise,not verses.

2thess is their main playground. They lost all traction in mat 24. Now it is force fitted into 2 thes..

Get one of them to decipher the 10 virgin parable. It is worth the entertainment.
True.

Look at the following quote of one conjecture after another,basically proving my point.
The beast regards no god,but honors the God of forces,or the evolutionary process,so he blasphemes God,by going against Christianity and those that follow it,by telling the world that their belief is a falsehood,and not the way to achieve peace on earth,and there is no personal God to help them,but people can solve their own problems,by their technology and devices,and the power of nature.

If the saints were not on earth,the beast would not have to go against the truth,for the saints on earth is the truth,by convincing the world to not give heed to their belief in a personal God,which the beast goes against all people that hold unto a belief in a personal God.

There is no pre-trib resurrection,for God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,and it is given unto the beast to make war against the saints,and prevail against them,and they will be given in to his hands for three and one half years,and he will destroy the holy and mighty people,and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,all things shall be finished.
 
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popeye

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Originally Posted by mpaper345

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

They are 2 literal men.

LOL. I guess you either didn't read my post #230 and 235 or they are lost on you. I go through it taking the time to thoroughly explain the Two Witnesses and show their real symbolic meaning and where it comes from. I translate them into literal terms for everyone to understand. Take the time to really read and study everything I wrote in those two posts if you want to gain a better understanding.

I showed the correct way to understand the passage and some people want us to go back to Kindergarten. No thanks. Gave up the spoon feeding some time ago. Said with love, of course. No disrespect meant for you, just your view on this subject.
No,345 has the high ground.

All you have proven is that you need it to be allegory.

It obviously messes with your made up mess from your mind,that only you discern to be "true"

No other human on the planet has that revelation. God only showed you.

UH HUH
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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5 wise,5 foolish.
Pretrib rapture.
Who had the extra oil to wait longer? Who actually is waiting longer, pre or post tribbers?
Lot Noah
Pretrib rapture
This concerns the wrath/judgment, not the Tribulation. The wicked were swept away.

Who didn't know until the Flood came? Hint: Noah knew, that's why he built the ark.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]and did not know until the flood came and took them all away...

1 thes 4
Dead rise first,then the Living ,seconds after,they all meet the groom in the air. 5 foolish virgins stay.
pretrib rapture.
Now you are combining two lessons. Read 1 Thes 4 and continue into 1 Thes 5 as it is an undivided complete message and discusses the Day of the Lord. The Great Attack on Israel isn't even mentioned.

Rev 14 harvests of people.
Pretrib rapture (postrib is impossible, due to the fact you would need the dead rising AFTER THE LIVING)
There are two harvests in Rev 14. They are the sheep and goats equating to Mat 25. After Christ returns and sits on His throne, He separates them.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

He is already here wearing His crown. See Rev 14:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.

In fact there are no postrib dynamics of a rescue after judgement.,,,, nothing there.

The rescue is from Judgment, not the tribulation of Israel. The Bible is clear, the church falls away before the Man of Sin is revealed. The Man of Sin is revealed before the Day of the Lord of 1 Thes 4-5. Sorry buddy, game over. No rapture of the church before Israel is attacked is taught anywhere.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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No,345 has the high ground.

All you have proven is that you need it to be allegory.

It obviously messes with your made up mess from your mind,that only you discern to be "true"

No other human on the planet has that revelation. God only showed you.

UH HUH
There are many people all over the internet who have come to the same conclusion about the 2 witness as me. I gave you one link, do you need more? For you to deny the connection of Rev 11 to Zec 4 where the symbols are the same is________. You fill in the blank (as long as you use a derogatory word that is related to stupid:D).
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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"The Church" falls away. It doesn't get raptured before the Great Tribulation of Israel. This is the true teaching concerning the church. All of these passages speak to it.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first

Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
[SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came

and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.

And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

So many passages telling us about the demise of the church, it's falling away. None of these passages refer to these saints as having been left behind or raptured.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Still waiting for any pre-tribber to answer this.

“Seventy weeks are determined
for your people and for your holy city..."

If the 70th week is the Great Tribulation and the Great Tribulation is global in its scale, why does the angel, Gabriel tell Daniel that the 70 weeks are for his people and Jerusalem?

Common, one of you pre-tribbers must have a theory on this. Love to hear it!!!
 

Stunnedbygrace

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Yes, I believe that fire will come out of their mouths to kill whoever tries to harm them. And that when they say no rain, there will be no rain. And that they will be killed and rise again 3 days later. And that a donkey talked to a man. And that a bush caught fire without burning up.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Yes, I believe that fire will come out of their mouths to kill whoever tries to harm them. And that when they say no rain, there will be no rain. And that they will be killed and rise again 3 days later. And that a donkey talked to a man. And that a bush caught fire without burning up.

The donkey and the bush were real. However, neither of them were taught in Revelation. Revelation uses OT figurative language with a little of John's NT symbols.

Let me show you this verse and tell me what you see:

Jeremiah 5:14

Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them.

Did Jeremiah spew real fire out of his mouth and burn up his people in the above?

Apparently not, as we see in the next verse. God had a different form of punishment in mind beside death by fire-breathing dragon prophet.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Behold, I will bring a nation against you from afar, O house of Israel,” says the Lord.


Please try to familiarize yourself with the different figurative language found throughout the Bible. In the below, "rain" represents "blessings." The people were not dwelling in a rain storm.

Psalm 68:9

You, O God, sent a plentiful rain, Whereby You confirmed Your inheritance, When it was weary. Your congregation dwelt in it; You, O God, provided from Your goodness for the poor.








 
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The donkey and the bush were real. However, neither of them were taught in Revelation. Revelation uses OT figurative language with a little of John's NT symbols.

Let me show you this verse and tell me what you see:

Jeremiah 5:14

Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them.

Did Jeremiah spew real fire out of his mouth and burn up his people in the above?

Apparently not, as we see in the next verse. God had a different form of punishment in mind beside death by fire-breathing dragon prophet.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Behold, I will bring a nation against you from afar, O house of Israel,” says the Lord.


Please try to familiarize yourself with the different figurative language found throughout the Bible. In the below, "rain" represents "blessings." The people were not dwelling in a rain storm.

Psalm 68:9

You, O God, sent a plentiful rain, Whereby You confirmed Your inheritance, When it was weary. Your congregation dwelt in it; You, O God, provided from Your goodness for the poor.










The following prophecy of Jesus,given to John, will take place precisely as spoken and is not subject to alterations by anyone!

[SUP]Who the two witnesses are in Rev.11:3-6 and what their powers are prophecied to be:
[/SUP]
[SUP]Rev.11:3 "[/SUP]And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]5 [/SUP]If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. [SUP]6 [/SUP]They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."


Who are the "two witnesses" in Revelation 11:3-6 ? Moses, Elijah and Enoch are the most likely candidates for Revelation's two witnesses, with most scholars believing the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. In Matthew 17, when Jesus took Peter, James, and John to the mount and was transfigured in front of them, Moses and Elijah appeared with Him. Enoch was not there. The transfiguration can be seen as a picture of the coming of the two witnesses--Moses and Elijah.

Malachi 4:5 predicts that Elijah will come as one of the two witnesses: "See I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord comes." Elijah was taken up into heaven by a whirlwind and chariot of fire (see 2 Kings 2:9-11); he did not physically die. Likewise, Moses, did not die a normal death. The Bible tells us that God preserved Moses' body (see Deuteronomy 34:5,6; Jude 9). The accounts of their deaths further corroborate the selection of Moses and Elijah as the two witnesses.

The powers given these two witnesses in Revelation 11:3-6, are the very same ones they were each given during their lifetime. The power to shut up the sky so it didn't rain was given to Elijah in 1 Kings 17:1. Moses was given the power to turn water into blood, in Exodus 7:17.


Quasar92
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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The following prophecy of Jesus,given to John, will take place precisely as spoken and is not subject to alterations by anyone!

[SUP]Who the two witnesses are in Rev.11:3-6 and what their powers are prophecied to be:
[/SUP]
[SUP]Rev.11:3 "[/SUP]And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]5 [/SUP]If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. [SUP]6 [/SUP]They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."


Who are the "two witnesses" in Revelation 11:3-6 ? Moses, Elijah and Enoch are the most likely candidates for Revelation's two witnesses, with most scholars believing the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. In Matthew 17, when Jesus took Peter, James, and John to the mount and was transfigured in front of them, Moses and Elijah appeared with Him. Enoch was not there. The transfiguration can be seen as a picture of the coming of the two witnesses--Moses and Elijah.

Malachi 4:5 predicts that Elijah will come as one of the two witnesses: "See I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord comes." Elijah was taken up into heaven by a whirlwind and chariot of fire (see 2 Kings 2:9-11); he did not physically die. Likewise, Moses, did not die a normal death. The Bible tells us that God preserved Moses' body (see Deuteronomy 34:5,6; Jude 9). The accounts of their deaths further corroborate the selection of Moses and Elijah as the two witnesses.

The powers given these two witnesses in Revelation 11:3-6, are the very same ones they were each given during their lifetime. The power to shut up the sky so it didn't rain was given to Elijah in 1 Kings 17:1. Moses was given the power to turn water into blood, in Exodus 7:17.


Quasar92

1) I have heard this theory 100 times if not more. The two "witnesses" are not named. They are not called, "men" or "woman" or "he" or "she." That alone should be a big clue.

2) The passage from Malachi 4:5 does not predict that Elijah will come as one of the two witnesses: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord." This happened already. Elijah came before Christ. See here:

Mat 17:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

Elijah, the prophet = John the Baptist, the prophet


This was foretold by Malachi.

Michael contending with Satan over the body of Moses doesn't prove that Moses comes back as one of the two witnesses. My theory is that Satan was trying to interfere with the transfiguration.

Therefore you have proven nothing because an alternative explanation makes better sense than fire-breathing dudes standing on the Temple Mount torching people then they are later killed by a giant beast which crawls out of a pit.

REV 11 IS ALL FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE

 
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PlainWord

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So, how are the witnesses described? What do we know about them and is there an alternative to the literal? When the figurative (which Revelation is loaded with) makes more sense than the literal, its better to go with the figurative. Let's apply the test.

1. Two Olive Trees - Are men "olive trees?" NO
2. Two Lampstands - Are men "lampstands?" NO
3. Prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days - Literal is possible
4. Clothed in sackcloth - Literal is possible
5. Fire proceeds out of their mouths devouring their enemies - Has this ever happened? NO
6. Power to shut heaven from rain - Literal is possible if they can do miracles
7. Power to turn water into blood - Literal is possible if they can do miracles
8. Strike the earth with all plagues as often as they want - Literal is possible if they can do miracles

So we have a literal interpretation which does not make sense. Man are not lampstands or olive trees and they don't breath fire. So, now look to see if the figurative meaning makes sense using established figurative meanings of these key words.
 

PlainWord

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The two Olive Trees and Lampstands symbolism comes from Zec 4 and is absolutely undeniable:

When Zechariah saw the two lampstands standing next to the two olive trees and didn't understand the image, he was told this:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]So he answered and said to me: “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ Says the Lord of hosts. [SUP]7 [/SUP]‘Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain! And he shall bring forth the capstone With shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”’” [SUP]8 [/SUP]Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying:[SUP]9 [/SUP]“The hands of Zerubbabel Have laid the foundation of this temple; His hands shall also finish it.

We know that the Holy Spirit = Olive Oil so that should be a big clue. Zerubbabel rebuilt the temple. Add that to Rev 1: "...and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches" and we start to see Temple or Church come into focus. But there is more:


[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?” [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?”

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?
And I said, “No, my lord.”

[SUP]14 [/SUP]So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.”

So in the above we have two olive trees to the left and right of two lampstands, whereby the lamps get their olive oil from the trees next to them. A "tree" has often been used to symbolize an angel, an important person, or even Jesus. If you notice, Zechariah starts to ask what the olive trees were then pivots to the lampstands and their branches. He is told concerning the lampstand this:
“These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.”

This is how John describes them in Rev 11:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

You have to be completely brain dead not to see that John is describing the exact same thing as Zechariah. But there is more. There is David's Psalm of Thanksgiving which is found twice in the OT. In the Psalm, one of the anointed ones is identified, actually both are.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]O seed of Israel His servant, You children of Jacob, His chosen ones! [SUP]14 [/SUP]He is the Lord our God; His judgments are in all the earth.

Now look what is stated next:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]When they went from one nation to another, And from one kingdom to another people, [SUP]21 [/SUP]He permitted no man to do them wrong; Yes, He rebuked kings for their sakes, [SUP]22 [/SUP]Saying,Do not touch My anointed ones, And do My prophets no harm.”

Compare again to Rev 11:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

By now it should be obvious to even the casual reader, but for those with degrees from men, haughty in their "knowledge" the Two Witnesses are:

1. Israel
2. the Church


Rev 11 is a beautiful picture of God's two anointed ones who stand beside Him and who are and have been witnesses on the earth, the Light which shines so bright to a sinful, dark and lost world. We know Israel gets all but wiped out in the Great Tribulation and we know (at least some of us do) that the Church light grows dim, it falls away. Both are defeated by the Beast which "crawls up" from the bottomless pit.

At this point, Satan thinks he's won. With little to no opposition, he reigns supreme and all those who refuse to worship him will be killed.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

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The donkey and the bush were real. However, neither of them were taught in Revelation. Revelation uses OT figurative language with a little of John's NT symbols.

Let me show you this verse and tell me what you see:

Jeremiah 5:14

Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them.

Did Jeremiah spew real fire out of his mouth and burn up his people in the above?

Apparently not, as we see in the next verse. God had a different form of punishment in mind beside death by fire-breathing dragon prophet.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Behold, I will bring a nation against you from afar, O house of Israel,” says the Lord.


Please try to familiarize yourself with the different figurative language found throughout the Bible. In the below, "rain" represents "blessings." The people were not dwelling in a rain storm.

Psalm 68:9

You, O God, sent a plentiful rain, Whereby You confirmed Your inheritance, When it was weary. Your congregation dwelt in it; You, O God, provided from Your goodness for the poor.









Just because God once said rain to figuratively mean blessing does not mean that God may never say rain to mean rain thereafter. To thereafter take rain to always mean blessing and never to mean rain would be...odd.

He also said the "Sun of righteousness." This does not mean the Sun is being spoken of or that the Sun is righteous. It also does not mean that when I read the word Sun in Revelation that I should substitute something else other than the Sun as the plain meaning. I should not assume "Sun" in Revelation to mean "righteousness" or "the light of righteousness."
 

PlainWord

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Just because God once said rain to figuratively mean blessing does not mean that God may never say rain to mean rain thereafter.
Exactly right. That's why we must be able to discern. Studying and understanding the abundant figurative language in the Bible is key. First test is to see if the passage makes sense if taken literally. If not, see if it makes sense using ESTABLISHED figurative language. If it doesn't make sense using the literal but does using the figurative, go with the figurative.

This is especially true in Revelation. You should probably reverse this definition for Revelation because almost the entire book is filled with figurative language. In the example I cited above, God would not have His people dwell in a literal rain storm when they were weary.

He also said the "Sun of righteousness." This does not mean the Sun is being spoken of or that the Sun is righteous.
EXACTLY, now you're getting it. "SUN" is figurative for "SON," His Son. "SUN" is also figurative for a Christian, one who witnesses and helps save others.

Matthew 13:43

Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

LIGHT, HEAT, both have strong figurative meanings. Very good!!

It also does not mean that when I read the word Sun in Revelation that I should substitute something else other than the Sun as the plain meaning.
Oops, I spoke too soon. No, not every time. Use the test I gave you above.

This is literal. It makes perfect sense. The figurative does not make sense:

Mark 1:32

At evening, when the sun had set, they brought to Him all who were sick and those who were demon-possessed.

This is figurative, it does not make sense to take it literally.

Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

Being a nuclear engineer, I know a little bit about the sun. If the sun was actually struck with something that dimmed its light by 1/3, the whole planet would freeze in about 20 seconds. LIGHT produces HEAT. A third less solar heat and we are finished. Also, the other stars would be unaffected by something happening to our sun because they are light sources themselves. If our sun literally went 1/3 dimmer, the other stars would actually appear brighter because our moon would dim by 1/3 since it reflects the light of our sun.

So, you can take the 4th trumpet to mean something bad just happened to either Christ (doubtful) or to His people - US!!

Exhibit A: There is a "falling away" of those with faith.


"...for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first..."

"...
Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

Exhibit B. Saints come under severe attack:

...I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came...

"...Shall persecutethe saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

"...And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

"...
And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."

No wonder there is a falling away. Not every one will die, many will just leave the faith or stop being a light.



 
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