Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

[bluto]

Just a heads up angela? wanderer did say in one of his post that he is attending Wesleyan College in Oklahoma and it appears that the college accepts rehema credits. I found it here: Accreditation - Christian College - Bible School - Bible Institute RBTC stands for Rehma Bible Training College. It's hard for me to believe that a "Wesleyan" College would accept rehema credits. I have a dear friend who is a "Wesleayan" and he abhors wof teachings and boldly speaks out against it. In any event I think this boy is going to find out (the hard way) that wof teachings do not "jive" with "Orthordox" Biblical teachings. Keep up the good work.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Cee]

Angela,

I honor you and who you are in the Spirit. Bless you.

I still believe that healing is a promise written into the very nature of God. I still continually pray for the sick, but if they don't get healed I don't blame their faith. I blame my own. Jesus didn't ever tell a person they weren't healed because of their faith. He didn't so I don't either. In fact, in one instance He commended the faith of his friends (paralytic being lowered down).

To everyone I wrote to:

I apologize if ANYTHING I've said has hurt anyone or put anyone into a place of feeling disrespected. It's truly not my heart. My heart is for Christ to receive everything He paid for, but I'm not called to shove my beliefs down other people's throats either. God loves you, I loves you. I understand your heart behind your posts. We just simply disagree. I'm not going to argue anymore. I don't feel like God is in this for me. But, I bless you all and love you all.

I commend you for your faith. Your zeal. And your apt Bible understanding.

Good-bye. I think there are different battles for me.

C.

 

[posthuman]

he has the ability to assist and compel the natural healing posses, and we can ask for that.

this response ↑ is already a far cry from "claiming" healing in every circumstance, contingent on the amount of faith a person has, by the argument that physical health and wellness have been "promised"

Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him
(Job 13:15)​

 

[trofimus]

Ive received the baptism of Holy Spirit but I myself am not comfortable in this kind of meeting. But, my comfort isn't at all important when a child wakes up from a coma. If it were mine, I probably would be dancing too.

I understand. But the mother was like she does not care at all. Others were dancing like for a life.

We do not know that the child was in a coma. I very doubt that. No proof of that.

And people wake up from the coma quite often without any miracle. 40 minutes of shouting and crazy music could change something like that.
How Do People "Come Out" of Comas? - How Comas Work | HowStuffWorks

But still, I dont believe this video. People there are obviously in an unhealthy state of minds, imho.

 

[Grace777x70]

I find it appalling that others rip apart other people in the body of Christ because they view some areas of a truth differently then some others do.

That people would publicly rip apart the places where God sent them to learn of Him in order to "compare " where "they" have gone as if that makes "their" interpretation of some scriptures more "legitimate".

The arrogance and "lording it over the faith" of others is shocking to me. The way they insult them and where they go for learning about Christ is very telling of the nature behind all this malice being exhibited.

( and yes - living in malice towards others is just as destructive as living the homosexual lifestyle - they are in the same list of works of the flesh )

Some on both sides of this discussion have been treating each other like they were enemies and not brethren in the Lord. Every time you insult or demean others - you are doing that to Christ Himself. "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"

These are all signs of baby Christians - it doesn't matter if you have been a Christian for 60 years, pastoring for 50 years, pray in tongues 12 hours a day, read Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, go to church every day, have memorized 1/2 of the NT. None of these make us mature in the Lord. Our behavior towards others is the true sign as Peter says. It's time to grow up in the Lord.

1 Peter 2:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

This subject always gets people's emotions fired up and so we think it's legitimate now to insult and denigrate others that believe differently in this area then what we do. We attack each other's faith - we attack other teachers in the body of Christ, we attack where they are going to school. Brethren - these things ought not be amongst us.

Why can't we allow others to have a different opinion on healing in some areas? Why not just state our beliefs with the scriptures that we believe on the subject - leave it there and not insult and demean others?

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

 

[PeterJens]

I find it appalling that others rip apart other people in the body of Christ

The above sentiment is an attempt to censor valid criticism and error.

1. Biblical theology has to be properly defended.
2. The lack of academic teachers in language and theology is critical to real teaching
and training and under-lines an anti intellectual and truth foundation in a training college.

If you cannot defend certain interpretations of Gods word adequately you are a false teacher.
As a false teacher, one should be confronted and rejected if no repentance and restoration is
apparent.

What is appalling is a lack of recognition of the rot that has set in and the corruption of teaching
and integrity among certain areas of the church. Suffice to say, calling this the body of Christ
is miss-leading, better to say this is the calling to account for behaviour among the body of
believers with a rejection of those who cause real harm to innocent sheep in desperate need.

 

[PeterJens]

where they go for learning about Christ is very telling of the nature behind all this malice being exhibited.
( and yes - living in malice towards others is just as destructive as living the homosexual lifestyle - they are in the same list of works of the flesh )

This is a grevious accusation. It is accusing a sincere, a well versed believer of hatred against
other people as the motivation behind words shared and positions taken.

Only the accuser would use such language, and introduce such poisonous ideas with no
foundation.

If you have seen people die unnecessarily holding out for healing that never came and
rejecting good medical care in the false belief this was spiritual, to stay silent would be
a sin.

We are commanded to do that which is good and not shy away from it.
So G7 is saying Angela is sinning by pointing out error and harm in the teachings and
theology of a group.

I would rather say Angela is doing the righteous thing that so many fail to do, and let
evil go unchallenged, the corrupt and hypocrites to be exalted as people to be listened
to and admired, while attacking and persecuting those who legitimately before the Lord
see sin and injustice.

So the evil of this whole approach is characterised by G7 and his arrogance to attack
the correct and legitimate challenge to false teaching put forward by so many.

And what is worse is this is an open forum, where the defence can be brought.
If a defence is not raised, then the position is false and should be acknowledged as such.

 

[Grace777x70]

The attempt to rationalize this ungodly behavior is appalling too.

John 13:34-35 (NASB)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

[SUP]35 [/SUP] "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

What is love? It is nothing like the behavior that ahs been exhibited in this thread against those that have a different opinion of this issue. 1 Cor. 13: 4-8 shows what real love is and it does not include insulting others, denigrating them.

Love does no harm to others - this is vastly different from pointing out what we believe to be error based on our own religious opinions.

I know for some - that is the way they "discuss" their religious beliefs and they think that is perfectly fine.

It is no wonder the people of the world do not want to have anything to do with Christ - the way we represent Him to others.

Trying to say this behavior and malice towards others in the body of Christ is "ok" is like saying it's a good thing to live the homosexual lifestyle.



Here is a perfect example of a quote from someone in the world that can see the difference. It's time to grow up in the Lord and stop this ungodly behavior.





With this post - I will leave this thread to continue to insult and demean and exhibit malice towards others in the body of Christ - if that is your choice to do. I for one am doing a Romans 16:17 in response to this type of behavior.

 

[trofimus]

If you cannot defend certain interpretations of Gods word adequately you are a false teacher.

What if a Christian interprets the word of God properly, but has no ability or knowledge to defend/prove that?

For example, all Christians believe God is Triune, but how many can really prove that without any study, just from their heads?

 

[ZEEK]

Then they are still in training?

 

[PeterJens]

The attempt to rationalize this ungodly behavior is appalling too.

Let me be frank. Sin, hurting people which leads to physical loss and damage is what
as followers of Christ we are concerned about.

The problem with G7 and his theology is it is not passive but projects evil onto those
who disagree with their theology.

They have redefined all the language of scripture, and come out with their own version
of salvation. The old saying is the biggest lies are the best.

Now the whole point of the gospel is it grounds people in what really matters, how to
love to the point of death, to lift up the weak and powerless and bring life to a dead
situation. And the reason justice and truth matters, because God will bring justice, and
He is the ultimate reference point. In Him we have the victory.

G7 wants to claim real faith in Christ but this diatribe against just holding up scripture
and showing the real foundations is the fruit of who he is and where he comes from.

For over a year now he has refused to accept the basic points of faith and reality.
He is the representative of aggressive WOF, health / wealth approaches.

This whole representation is dying because it fails to answer the basic questions raised
by believers and the teaching of Paul in romans. And what he hates most is this clear
declaration of truth.

We are saved through faith to perform good works God has planned for us. Amen

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Eph 2:10

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:11

 

[FlSnookman7]

[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]Mat 7:20
[/TD]
[TD]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
It is plain to see, does a person respond out of love or hate? These unChristian attacks against others in Christ are obviously bad fruits. When one walks in the flesh they only have hate and malice as tools and as such they can only use those things in response to others. Until one is able to set aside their pride and have faith in what Jesus did and who Jesus says they are they can never walk in the spirit. Ever since Jesus gave paul His gospel of grace those who lack faith have attacked it. Those same people like to take scripture out of context to try and convince others that their misguided choice to remain in bondage to the law is God's Word. They are trapped in religion but don't really know Jesus.

 

[PeterJens]

WOF theological dynamite

Gods will => our needs => our authority => our submission => our witness => our constraints

Pauls approach =>

As servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.
2 Cor 6:4-10

Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?
2 Cor 11:23-29

This is a man submitting to the situation but working through with Gods will.
This is such a different spirit than that brought within WOF, Health/wealth.

 

[PeterJens]

remain in bondage to the law is God's Word. They are trapped in religion but don't really know Jesus.

When I look round the church, I do not see people in obedience to Gods word but
in rebellion against it. You could argue back in 1800's there was true conformity to
a cultural legalistic identity.

But now lawlessness is riping through everything, with no reference to any morality.
And this lawlessness is expressing itself in condemning what remains as a stand for
righteousness.

 

[garee]

This idea is completely against Scripture.

I see that the other way around. That law confirms scripture .

It’s what gives scripture integrity, especially for the last two thousand years. This is seeing God is no longer bringing any new revelation to include a sign and wonder, one of the manners He did make himself known by. Today if any man say Lo is Christ, He is here or there we are to believe not .

There are no commands to seek after a sign as a requirement before men would believe , but just the opposite.

Pharisees wanted signs and wonders AFTER denying the ones He performed in front of them

The signs He did perform were against them. According to the law of faith (the unseen) signs are for those who believe not.... prophecy for those who do believe God. That law found in 1 Corinthian 14 I believe is not subject to change, many ignore it as if it was not a rule of faith .

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, “not to them that believe”, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1Co 14:21

There is a difference between “seeking after” and “requiring” one before one will believe. The Holy Spirit fought against the Jew who required a sign. Rather than putting their faith in prophecy.

1Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:


The Pharisees continued to seek after signs, rejecting His words . It was their MO, Christ nemesis.

Signs are for those who believe not .Prophecy for those who have the faith that alone comes from hearing God.

And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation. Mar 8:11

The generation of Adam natural man

If you think Jesus only healed because He was "confirming" His message, this goes against a lot of Scriptures.

He did not use physical healing for nothing, seeing the men that were healed would die in the end of the matter. Remember without parables Christ spoke not.

The parables where he did heal was evidence that God was working the gospel.

John was doubting as to whether the Son of man was the savor. Did he have the right person?

Jesus sent him a message confirming he was. How that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. They are all metaphors used as spiritual meanings, hiding the understanding form those lost who do require a sign before they will believe.

Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

1. Jesus performed a miracle for Mary "before His time".
2. James said "Is any sick?" Get healing, nothing to do with confirming a message.
3. The OT contained healing in it, because it's God's nature, and we are in a better one.
4. Jesus said those who believe in Him would do the works He did.
5. Jesus healed Gentiles when He was sent to the Jews.

Jesus fulfilled prophecy in regard to His birth. The miracle was not so Mary could believe after her experience.

She believed prophecy before her experience .

People are using healing as a sign to confirm even today their own experience .God does not use humans to heal. He has no needs but satisfies all . Only God can heal .

The greater works had to do with the gospel . A greater work would be when He moved the men from different nations that heard the voice of Peter so they could understand God and believe to the salvation of their soul .

His gifts are not greater than one another.They all accompany salvation as the better things. Peter was moved by the Holy Spirit was in a grater position with out the Son of man present .

3000 souls became new creatures. Christ because of His flesh had no more than 500 in his entire ministry . 3000 is greater the work. As far as healing it does not get much greater in the way of raising the dead ..

God has always healed the Gentiles he heals all men without discrimination . Again we are talking about healing, not bringing a sign like the laying on of hands that confirms men have the gift of healing. The gift we can be bring is the gospel it does all the work of healing

Many would rather attribute healing to the enemy out of fear of being mislead than give God the glory.

Many say the scriptures are not enough evidence to prove God. They require a sign before they will believe.

But God didn't give us a spirit of fear.

Yes He gave us a spirit of direction not to add to His perfect law as it is written. To them who require a sign there are not enough words found in scripture in order to take away their false fears . We fear him aright when we obey His word.

Why would a person need more evidence than that which is revealed? Are there any laws missing by which we could know Christ more intimately? If not then why does the unbelieving Jew still require a sign to confirm they are children of God?

 

[LaurenTM]

Sometimes exegetes give me the impression that their pride out of the vast knowledge of Scriptures has blinded them from seeing true wisdom from God.

interesting...

because the ONLY place where wisdom is to be found is in the very Bible that does actually need an exegetical study in order to grasp that same wisdom

I praise God for His word!

He sent His word and healed them, And delivered them from their destructions. Psalm 107:20

all this flak about so called personal attacks is just folks getting their pet doctrines examined by the word

actually, I was called a number of names by wanderer in the thread he started, which was closed down, probably due, at least in part, to the many complaints of people who objected to his inflamatory attacks

he had some kind of nasty remark to just about everyone in the thread...so he came here and subjectively took over someone elses' thread

 

[LaurenTM]

With this post - I will leave this thread to continue to insult and demean and exhibit malice towards others in the body of Christ - if that is your choice to do. I for one am doing a Romans 16:17 in response to this type of behavior.

I, for one, do not find you very credible

you kept an arguement going for months until the mods had to step in and make you and a few others stop it

many of us also posted in some of those threads...and I know I even asked YOU personally...to stop and you just kept it up

so, don't come in here acting all holier than thou

it does not suit you

Originally Posted by Grace777x70

where they go for learning about Christ is very telling of the nature behind all this malice being exhibited.

( and yes - living in malice towards others is just as destructive as living the homosexual lifestyle - they are in the same list of works of the flesh )

says the expert on his own opinions...you know, I really thought you were a different person

very telling that you can no longer post as you did without being banned so you try to others feel ashamed of the EXACT behavior you exhibited for months on end

 

[Depleted]

I am not believer in Hinn, Hagin etc. So if somebody says they have the power to make miracles, just show it, without claims and megashows.

I believe God can and does miracles today. But we are in the WoF thread. Thats the topic.

And when someone starts an answer to YOUR question with "I am not a Wofer. I despise it," that part ought to answer the rest about proof God does miracles. But you? You seem to rotate like a spinning top.

Are you one of those people who have to disagree with everyone over everything?

 

[Depleted]

Your words are basically: "Word of Faith" is a scam.
What this means from the continual arguments in this thread: The idea that you can agree with what God says to receive what He promises = scam.
That's what is being presented over and over.
And the basis for this statement? If God wanted me healed, I'd be healed, so obviously He must not want me healed.
This has been stated over and over in multiple ways.

BUT - The idea that you need faith to receive is repeated OVER and OVER in Scripture.
WoF is the study of what it looks like to have the "faith to receive".
It's not perfect, but the doctrine is based around the idea that Scripture teaches we need faith to receive God's promises.

Faith is not just for SALVATION.
Jesus says, over and over again, your faith has made you well. Not your faith has saved your soul. People teach that, but Scripture doesn't.

And to be perfectly blunt with you, when people say they believe in healing, but then continually look for reasons to disprove it, do they actually believe in healing? Or do they only believe in healing on "their terms"? I believe the latter. And as I addressed in my last post that's what Jesus would call unbelief. Looking at "personal experiences" to redefine God's promises.

And to say that God doesn't want people well, you'd have to completely throw out Scriptures like:
1. Jesus saying you will do the works I do.
2. James saying to get prayer of faith and you'll be made well.
3. John desiring people would be in good health even as their soul prospers. When someone says that today many call them a heretic.

Just to name a few off the top of my head.

You say: I base my arguments like Biblical fact. And you don't? If I didn't believe they were true I wouldn't share them now would I. And I have no problem discussing any and every point I make in my posts with Scripture. So, instead of making a "sweeping generalization" about me, feel free to address a point I made that you think is not Scriptural.

I've always been open to correction because I am a disciple. I am a learner. I seek to grow. Not to simply prove myself right. Can you say the same? If so, let's have a discussion, I'm fine with it.

C.

Actually, the scam is hideous.

1. Find poor people so desperate for a miracle that they'll pay what they can't afford for it.

2. Promise them you're speaking God's word and throw in a partial verse here and there so it sounds like God's word.

3. Promise them if they believe long enough and send you more money to keep on with "the ministry," that the healing will come, albeit gradually.

4. Prove it by taking someone with bipolar but is between manic and depressive to show how they are healed. Prove it by placing fakes in the audience. Prove it by promising a leg will miraculously heal in 6-8 weeks. Prove it by hyping people up from depression just enough to give a testimony of how they were "healed." Prove it by "slain in the spirit." Prove it by the placebo effect. Just keep showing more and more "proofs" to convince poor person to continue to pay for "the ministry."

5. And then use the pyramid scam to send those folks out to con even more and more vulnerable poor desperate poor folks out of there money.

Do this often enough, and sure enough, you get mansions, private jets, Bentleys, etc. to get what you want before the poor person is left broke in four ways -- physically, financially, emotionally, and spiritually. Not to worry. Plenty of poor people left.

Then tell them, "You didn't have enough faith. It's all your fault."

Your problem is we get the program. We're just not buying it, nor are we buying that's what God does.

God heals! He just doesn't need our faith, belief, or permission to do so.

 

[samuel23]

I was in WOF for years because I believed in the message that faith in God is what God desires from us when we pray. I finally had to admit to myself that much of what WOF was teaching did not agree with what I was reading in the bible. The apostle Paul did not command the weather to obey him or command money to come when he needed it. He did pray for many sick people who were healed, but he did not hold healing services where people were brought to him as is the custom of many WOF teachers today.