Rapture Gap

Bladerunner · Dec 7, 2016

I have been looking over some information concerning the Rapture Gap and the Seven seals. So far, I have had to rethink some old thoughts.

We all (literalist at least) understand that the tribulations will not happen immediately after the Rapture. In fact, the tribulations may not happen until well after all the seals have been opened which means, the Gap after the Rapture is going to be very deadly. I thought I would bring it up for discussion.

Below I have offered summaries of different verses or chapters. I invite your thoughts on these. If you want, just do one or two at a time and refer back to the 1st two post for the item you are commenting on or do them all,,,you choice..

As the sign of the beginning of the tribulations is the Covenant the antichrist makes with Isreal, we need to get more information about the covenant.

Isaiah 28-29: (28: 14-15) "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:"

It appears that Israel thinks that after that they can hide from the destruction of the antichrist. This appears by subsequent verses that they will get to rebuild the temple, the Messiah will come down and take care of the antichrist before it finds them. It appears that in subsequent verses, God has other opinions. There is a couple of chapters there.

Rough summaries:
Rev 4 tells us what John saw in Heaven with the Elders, four beast and angels.
Rev 5. finds the only one who can open the seals

To keep from making this so long, I am going to make the first two pages in the thread and will wait you thoughts.

Thank you in advance as I am looking forward to your input. It will help me greatly in my research of the new theory. http://christianchat.com/images/icons/icon6.png

Bladerunner · Dec 7, 2016

Below is a list with summaries only.

Rev. 6....the 1st seal opened and a WHITE horse and HE(antichrist)sat up on him with a Bow and NO ARROWS.

The 2nd seal opened and a RED horse and the power to "take the peace from the earth" War?

The 3rd seal was a BLACK horse and charged highly for merchandise, food, water, etc.

the 4th seal , a PALE horse and Death sat of him and Hell followed him..Power was given to him to kill by many means necessary.

the 5th seal and John saw the souls under the Alter....What I had considered martyred saints after the tribulations had started... Evidently not so! pay careful attention to the verses 10 and especially 11. hint "a little season"

The 6th seal verses 12 - 17 gives us death in many ways.

Now as you probably already know, there is a pause between the 6th and the 7th seals even in the trumpets and in the bowls. This pause shows us many things in Chapter 7.

Chapter 7... the 144,000 are sealed and sent to earth....We see that the elders here are not angels as 'all the angels' are present in the throne room. There are many thing here and we can take them verse by verse if you would like. your choice.

Chapter 8....notice that all the death is cause by angels, and God. How about all them stars that fall from heaven???????

Chapter 9......we see more death by locusts that have aking named Abaddon/Apollyon

chapter 10....a little book is shown but had to be sealed up. Wonder what was in it....Knowing that God has created a pattern in His Holy Book that everything is explained somewhere.

Chapter 11.....The beast from the bottomless pit finally shows up. Notice that someone is measuring the Temple. to be rebuilt. Notice that the Beast "SHALL" verse 7....".....shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them....." He may or may not hae made the covenant with Israel at this time.

Chapter 12........a lot of things happen in here, but Satan is Kicked out of heaven with a 1/3 of the star of heaven (guess the the stars are angels after all). Notice verse 6 the woman (Israel) flees int he wilderness 1260 days (3/1/2 years),, verse 14..time, times and a half..3 1/2 years

chapter 13......here the beast (antichrist) with ten horns (nations) are rising. verse 5 gives him 42 months to kill. Rem,, that in chapter 11, the beast showed up , apparently made the covenant as per Isaiah 29,29.

We can begin from here chapter 14 through 22. This part as far as I know of, has not changed or at least no one has put up other pausible theories.

Thank you in advance as I am looking forward to your input. It will help me greatly in my research of the new theory.

Ahwatukee · Dec 8, 2016

G-day Bladerunner,

First of all, I would like to point out that in regards to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, they are referred to as judgments, plagues and wrath within Revelation, being used interchangebly and are therefore referring to the same thing, the wrath of God.

Though there is nothing in scripture that specifies how long it will be from the time that the resurrection takes place to the beginning of the tribulation, which begins with the first seal being opened, I would venture to say that it would begin in close proximity to after the church has been gathered. My reasoning for this is that, in 2 Thes.2:5 we are told that the restrainer (Holy Spirit through the church) is currently holding back the full force of sin and the man of lawlessness. And once the restrainer is taken out of the way (and the church with Him), then that man of lawlessness/antichrist will be revealed.

That said, with millions of Christians having been removed from the earth in the twinkling of an eye, the world will be in a state of confusion and chaos, which would be a perfect entrance for that antichrist to make his appearance.

According to Rev.12:6,14, the woman/Israel will indeed escape the antichrist, as she will flee out into the desert to that place prepared for her by God and will be cared for during that last 3 1/2 years.

"The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."

"The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth."

According to Rev.12:9, the dragon is Satan. The mention of him "spewing water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent" is in reference to sending an army after her. The reference to water, torrents, floods and rivers, etc. are used in several other scriptures to represent armies.

Bladerunner · Dec 8, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

G-Day to you my friend....Regarding the seals, as horrible as they are, they still appear to be outside of the 7-years of tribulations. After rereading Revelation's early chapters 4-11, I find that it is apparent the rapture happens between the last verse of Chapter 3 and the first verse of chapter 4. The elders are already there by the time John is taken there....At this point, the GAP begins and the chapters between 4- 11 (when the antichrist first appears). However all the Seals have been opened at this time and it apparent that it is God's Wrath rather than Man's wrath. With the Restrainer (Holy Spirit) gone, in Seal 2, God takes what ever peace there is away from the Earth, thus death by various means as you have mentioned ensue.

The beast does not appear until chapter 11: 11. Up to this point all the killing of mankind has been God's wrath. Therefore the Gap appears to end here as the Temple is being measured and the court and city given over to the Gentiles..

It had been my opinion for a long time that during the Gap between the Harpozo and the 7 Years of Tribulations, the antichrist had to be either growing up and/or gathering power simply because Satan did not know when the Rapture would be happening. This kept him from getting ready as he did in other passages past.

Please keep in mind that this is new information at least to me and I am trying to get my head around it. It by no means that I have abandoned the belief that the Seals are in the 7-year tribulations and the covenant started prior to that. But Rev. does not really say that.

One other point before I go.....Who are the Martyrs under the alter at the second seal. The first Seal (the White Horse and he that sets upon him). Is this the antichrist????????,,,Satan is still in Heaven....... Who is sitting on the other Horses??????/ cannot be all antichristesssssssss....(in jest only???) The White Horse is given a Crown, what is that??????... and he is given the power to Conquer.....Notice.......not just kill but Conquer. Rem...that Cyrus took Babylon without a Fight or loss of life (at least a large number of deaths).

I submit the martyrs under the altar are those people that were left behind and were knowledgeable of the Gospel of Jesus but for whatever reason, made the wrong choice.. After the rapture, they have realized this and have come full circle. We can also assume (at some risks), chaos ensues after the Harpozo and the those left behind are 'Now believers are persecuted to the point of death....[I say this because....put yourself in their place.....I have loved ones on a plane and it goes down because the Pilot was a Christian. They are going to rebel against any people who 'now believe' in Jesus Christ and his Gospel.]

As far as the rest of what you stated in the first post #3...I am going to leave it until a later time if you don't mind. It seems there is enough to discuss that comes out of chapter 4 through the chapter 6 seals.

Your thoughts please! and thank you again for your comments.

Ahwatukee · Dec 8, 2016

Good morning!

Regarding the above, I would have to disagree, as I have always maintained that the seals are apart of God's wrath and therefore take place within the seven years. For Jesus is the One opening the seals, which means that He is responsible for a fourth of the inhabitants being killed. Based on 7 billion people, a fourth would be approx. 1.7 billion fatalities. To be clear, I believe that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments make up that last seven years, with the 1st seal rider of Rev.6:1 representing the antichrist.

I agree! The end of chapter 3 is the last time that we see the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" with the command from the voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here" in Rev.4:1 as being prophetic of the church being gathered. I also believe that the voice that sound like a trumpet in Rev.4:1 is synonymous with the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16

[....At this point, the GAP begins and the chapters between 4- 11 (when the antichrist first appears). [/quote]

I believe that the opening of the 1st seal is representing the antichrist, which would have him first appearing in Rev.6:1.

I also have always maintained that the seals are apart of God's wrath. Many try to make seals 1- 4 man's wrath, with the trumpets and bowls only representing God's wrath. And some claim that only the bowls are to be considered wrath. But the fact is that, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments belong together as a set. The other proof that the seals are indeed God's wrath is that, the Lamb/Jesus is the One opening the seals, which makes Him responsible for the fourth of the earth's fatalities.

First, I believe that you made a typo in that, the Martyrs under the altar are seen at the opening of the 5th seal, not the 2nd seal. Regarding them, I believe that they will belong to those saints who receive Christ after the church has been gathered and that the reason for their deaths is that they could be victims of the 2nd seal, where peace is taken from the earth so that men kill each other. Where there are others that claim that these under the altar are the faithful from all walks of history. There is just not enough information provided regarding them in order to come to a definite conclusion.

As I stated earlier, I have always believed the 1st seal to be representing the antichrist. It is said that he "rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest." Regarding this, in 13:5-8 the beast/antichrist is said to make war against the saints and to conquer them. Following that it is stated that all the inhabitants of the earth will worship him. Also, I believe that the 1st seal rider on the white horse, is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11-21, who is the Lord. Below is a comparison of the two riders, which demonstrates that they are definitely not the same rider:

========================================
Rider on the White Horse of Rev.6:1-2:
· Holds a bow
· Was given a crown
· Rides out as a conqueror bent on conquest

Rider on the White Horse of Rev.19:11-21:
· Rider is called Faithful and True
· With justice He judges and makes war
· His eyes are like blazing fire
· On his head are many crowns
· Has a name written on him that no one knows but He himself
· Is dressed in a robe dipped in blood
· His name is the Word of God
· Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations
· He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty
· On his robe and on his thigh the name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

Yes, I agree that Satan still has access to heaven and that he and his angels are not cast out until the middle of the seven years. The reference to his time being short, is that from the time that he is cast out he only has 3 1/2 years before Christ returns and he is thrown into and restricted in the Abyss.

Regarding the other riders, they could be other high ranking fallen angels or the riders could just be symbolic riders representing the results of those particular seals. What we do know that the 1st seal white horse is representing the antichrist and the 4th seal rider on the pale green horse is representing death, with Hades following close behind.

I'd like also like to make something else known that I believe: The antichrist, who I believe will be a
literal man, makes his agreement with Israel which begins that seven years. In Rev.9:14, we are told that those demonic beings who come up out of the Abyss have a king over them, which is that angel of the Abyss i.e. the beast who comes up out of the Abyss. At the sounding of the 5th trumpet, I believe that this fallen angel/beast will be the power behind the antichrist and through him will kill the two witnesses.

Bladerunner · Dec 8, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

I have no doubt that the seals are God's wrath. Even Seal two which simply takes the 'Peace for the Earth' has God's hand in it. And yes, Jesus is opening the seals.

As far as the seal 4 verse 6.8,,,"....And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth......". This does not say a fourth part of the people or how many will be killed rather that the Pale Horseman had power over 1/4 of the earth. At a later time it is clear 1/3 of the earth's people have died. I don't think at this point we know how many are being killed by the Pale Horseman.

to continue 6.8 "...... to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth......" here Jesus is telling them how they can kill them on earth.

We are on the same page and whether the seals (God's wrath) are part of the 7 years is not a game changer but it is rather interesting trying to find out. It also gives me a better understanding of God's Glory. There are secrets put there by God and He tells us to find them.

I have got to go..... will get back to the rest of your post a little later.....Have a Blessed Day my friend.

Ahwatukee · Dec 8, 2016

Greetings,

Here is the scripture:

"When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth."

As I understand it, power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, is referring to a fourth of the earth's inhabitants being killed and not an unknown number of fatalities within that fourth. In other words they are given power over the entire earth and a fourth is the percentage who are killed.

I totally agree. I believe that those who diligently search out God's word, he allows them to find the hidden gems. The woman of Rev.12 and Gen.37:9-10 is one and 1 Thes.4:16 and Rev.4:1 is another. Some others are:

Chapters 1 thru 3 = The word Church used, but the word saints not found

Chapters 4 onward = The word Saints used , but the word church is not found

Regarding the above, I believe that the reason that the word Ekklesia/church is no longer used after the end of chapter 3, is because God is showing us that the church is gone. The use of the word saints beginning in 5:8 is in reference to the great tribulation saints introduced in 7:9-17.

I work the third shift, but I can log on from work too. You have a blessed day as well.

samuel23 · Dec 8, 2016

Sometimes we can look so hard for mysteries that we over look the obvious. In matt 24 and Mark 13 Jesus clearly described a tribulation period BEFORE He would return in the sky to gather the believers. That tribulation period he described is very much like the 4 horsemen. Jesus tribulation involves world disasters and great persecution of Christians that ends with His return. The seals describe the same thing and end with the time of Christ wrath(His return) and then in Rev 7 the church is in Heaven having gone through the tribulation. People are mixing up the period that Jesus called the great tribulation with the time of God's wrath. The great tribulation happens before the rapture of the church but the wrath of God happens after the church is taken out.

Ahwatukee · Dec 8, 2016

I don't force mysteries. The Holy Spirit has revealed them to me as I continue to dig into His word, which is exactly what Jesus He would do.

Two things here: 1) You are confusing common trial and tribulation which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness with God's coming tribulation, which will be the time of his wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And 2) you are not recognizing that there is a difference between Christ's appearing to gather the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which are two separate events.

Regarding God's wrath, scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer this, that Christ rescues us from the coming wrath and that he will keep us out of that time of wrath - 1 Thes.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10

According to Jesus in Matt.24:15-21, the great tribulation begins at the setting up of the abomination, with Matt.24:31 being 3 1/2 years later with Christ returning to end the age.

Regarding tribulation, it has been happening to believers ever since Jesus said it, but it is not the great tribulation which will be a specific time of God's wrath, which believers are not appointed to suffer and that because Christ already suffered it on our behalf.

I am not speaking off the cuff of my sleeve. I have actually studied end-time events and the word of God for a very long time.

samuel23 · Dec 8, 2016

I also have a lot of study. Jesus taught the disciples that he would return at a future date on several occasions. Finally four of the apostles asked Him directly what would be the signs leading up to that return and when would the return occur...Jesus reply was Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. In all of these, Jesus described a period of time that would precede His return that would consist of war ,famine, disease, and great persecution of Christians, Jesus called that period of time the great tribulation and said that His return would immediately follow that period of time. Jesus said nothing to the apostles about a return before the tribulation. People often speak of a rapture of the church(described by Paul) and the second coming(described by Jesus). There is only the second coming in the bible and it was described by Jesus and later by Paul. The church before Paul had to be post-trib because that was the only return of Christ to gather the believers known to the church. Paul would have had to accepted the post-trib rapture already put in place by Jesus. So Paul wrote of a post-trib rapture ,therefore there is no pre-trib rapture in the bible.

Bladerunner · Dec 8, 2016

Agree with you Ahwatukee about the tribulations... It is a misnomer at the best but it has ingrained itself into the teaching of Book of Revelation. Like you said, there is only one tribulation and it was named by Jesus Christ himself to be the Great Tribulations.

As far as suffering, the Bible tells us there will be trials, personal tribulations and persecution. We are seeing that today around the world and it is getting worse each day. Having said that, He tells us we , the church, are not to be touched by the Wrath of God.

Ahwatukee,,, where would you like to start in Revelations, I guess I got it started off on a different line but that can wait until more information comes forth.

Bladerunner · Dec 8, 2016

Samuel23....... If you will look to Matt 24, Jesus tells his disciples about the famine, earthquakes etc.

Yet in verse 15..."When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

"

From this verse to verse 21, the whole scene has changed and he then speaks of the Great Tribulation.

When verse 15 happens, verse 21 ..." For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The Church is already gone prior to this point in time. See Chapter 4.

Ahwatukee · Dec 9, 2016

As I said in the earlier post, the return that Jesus is speaking of is his return to the earth to end the age, as described in Matt.24:29-31. What it is not referring to is Christ's appearing to gather the church, which takes place over several years prior to his return to the earth.

Resurrection and catching away = Christ descending from heaven, the dead rising first, then those who are still alive are changed and caught up and taken back to the Father's house. (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

Second coming = The Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. (Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21)

Matthew 24 is speaking about the signs leading up to the Lord's second coming. The resurrection will have already taken place prior to those signs that he is describing. If you will notice, the Lord makes reference to the abomination being set up in the holy place, offerings and sacrifices in the temple, Israel fleeing out into the wilderness, etc. This is all about unbelieving, ethnic Israel, not the church.

In between right now and when Jesus returns to end the age, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. The church cannot be here during that time period, because we are not appointed to suffer wrath. When Jesus gathers the church, he is not returning to the earth, but only meeting us in the atmosphere and then taking the entire church back to the Father's house to those dwelling places that he went to prepare for us.

Consequently, the church is that army riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean, who will be following the Lord out of heaven when he returns to end the age. Paul never wrote of a post-trib rapture. (Rev.17:14, 19:6-8, 14)

-------- The Church, dead and living, is gathered and taken back to the Father's house (John 14:1-3)

-------- Seven year covenant with Israel established (Dan.9:27, Matt.24:15)

-------- Seals, trumpets and bowl judgments throughout the entire seven years

-------- The abomination that causes the desolation is set up in the middle of the seven years

-------- Israel flees out into the wilderness where she is cared for 1260 days, which is the last 3 1/2 years

-------- Jesus returns to the earth shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out, completing God's wrath

-------- The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire

-------- Satan is seized and thrown into the Abyss during the thousand year reign of Christ

-------- Millennial kingdom

samuel23 · Dec 9, 2016

It becomes almost certain error when we ascribe symbolic meaning to those places in scripture that the scripture itself does not give us permission to ascribe a symbolic meaning to. Chapter 4 in Revelation does not describe the rapture of the church, it describes a voice calling John up into Heaven in order to see the future. To assume this is symbolic for the rapture is a grave error since the word of God has given no man permission to take such a position. To choose to place a symbolic meaning of one's own choosing will change the meaning of any set of written instructions(including the bible), so I choose not to interpret the bible that way lest I create scripture that satisfies my mind while rejecting the truth from God.

buddyt · Dec 9, 2016

RAPTURE Satan's favorite word.
The first words out of his mouth will be I've come to Rapture you out of here. I came across this writing and would like to share it with the forum. I feel the truth of this false teaching is so important I must do so. Its long but pretty much tells the same as I believe. So this is just my two cents worth.
Almost all Christians are interested in prophecy. This is especially true if the prophecies show what will happen to Christians themselves. There is nothing wrong in desiring such personal knowledge. Even our Lord gave a considerable amount of teaching about the circumstances to befall His people at the end of the age (Matthew 24:22–25). We all share a common concern in wanting to know about the participants, the chronology, and the geography of those prophecies. To comprehend the full knowledge of them it is obvious that all relevant statements of our Lord and His apostles must be properly interpreted and placed in a coherent order. Many Christians have attempted to do this. As a consequence, the doctrine of the Rapture has arisen. So important has it become to many that the teaching is now sanctioned in some circles as the prime revelation from God to show what will happen to members of His ekklesia just before and during the Second Coming of Christ. Some of the greatest friends of the Holy Scriptures have accepted this teaching (and they teach this false doctrine even by mistranslating the phrase “first resurrection” as “the former resurrection” in Revelation 20:5). If one translates the word correctly as “first,” then it means the resurrection of Christians occurs after the Tribulation, and the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory is shown to be false. [SUP]1[/SUP]
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory, however, is a menacing doctrine that perverts the plain language of the text of the New Testament. Some preachers today look on the doctrine as the heart and core of present Christian expectations in regard to prophetic truth for the near future! Many believe this false teaching is the principle hope of the Body of Christ for their redemption and safety during the Great Tribulation. We need to look at this teaching carefully.
[h=2]The Doctrine of the Rapture[/h]First understand that the word “Rapture” is not found in the King James translation. There is also no single word used by biblical authors to describe the prophetic factors that comprise the doctrine. Its formulation came about by means of inductive reasoning. Certain biblical passages concerning the Second Coming, and the role Christians will play in that event, were blended together inductively to establish the teaching.
The modern expression “Rapture” has been invented to explain the overall teaching and the term suits the subject well. The basic tenets of the doctrine are simple. It purports that Christ will come back to this earth in two phases. He will first return secretly to rapture His church away from this world so that they might escape the Great Tribulation to occur at the end of the age. Christ then returns in a visible advent to dispense His wrath on the world’s nations. This is the general teaching.
Many details concerning these prime factors are hotly debated. There is especially much argument over the chronological features associated with it. Some think the time lapse between the two phases will be 3 ½ years, others say 7 years. Some feel that the Rapture of the ekklesia occurs before the Tribulation, others about mid-way through. Many suggest that the saints of God will be taken to heaven for protection, while others suggest a geographical area on this earth (as I have shown in various articles). [SUP]2[/SUP] Some feel that only part of the ekklesia will escape, while others say all will be rescued.
These variations and others have multiplied the interpretations among those holding the belief. But all are unanimous on one point: the central theme of the “Rapture Theory” (as it is normally called in the theological world) shows that Christ will return to earth in two phases. They think Christ will come at first secretly for His saints and then He will come visibly with His saints returning with Him from heaven at the actual Second Advent. In this book, when I use the term “Rapture” standing alone, I always mean the “Rapture Theory” of the pre-tribulation theorists.
[h=2]The Newness of the Doctrine[/h]It may come as a surprise but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 C.E. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned it before 1830 (though a sentence in Pseudo-Dionysius in about 500 C.E. could be so interpreted). Of course, those who feel the origin of the teaching is in the Bible would say that it ceased being taught for some unknown reason at the close of the apostolic age only to reappear in 1830. But if the doctrine were so clearly stated in Scripture, it seems incredible that no one should have referred to it before the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century.
The lateness of the doctrine does not necessarily mean the teaching is wrong (only the plain statements of the Bible can reveal that). It does show that thousands of eminent scholars over seventeen centuries (including the most astute “Christian Fathers” and those of the Reformation and post-Reformation periods) must be considered prophetic dunces for not having understood so fundamental a teaching. This lapse of seventeen centuries when no one elaborated on the doctrine must be viewed as an obstacle to accepting its reliability.
[h=2]The Beginnings of the Doctrine[/h]The result of a careful investigation into the origin of the Rapture was published in 1976. This was in an excellent research book that deserves to be read by all people interested in the subject. Its title: The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin by Dave MacPherson. [SUP]3[/SUP] He catalogs a great deal of historical material that answers the doctrine’s mysterious derivation. I wish to review the results of his research.
In the middle 1820’s a religious environment began to be established among a few Christians in London, England which proved to be the catalyst from which the doctrine of the Rapture emerged. Expectations of the soon coming of our Lord were being voiced. This was no new thing, but what was unusual was the teaching by a Presbyterian minister named Edward Irving that there had to be a restoration of the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians chapters 12–14 just before Christ’s Second Advent. To Irving, the time had come for those spiritual manifestations to occur. Among the expected gifts was the renewal of speaking in tongues and of prophetic utterances motivated by the spirit.
Irving began to propagate his beliefs. His oratorical skills and enthusiasm caused his congregation in London to grow. Then a number of people began to experience the “gifts.” Once this happened, opposition from the organized churches set in. It resulted in Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church in 1832. His group established themselves as the Catholic Apostolic Church and continued the teachings of Irving. These events were the beginnings of what some call present day Pentecostalism. Some church historians referred to Irving as “the father of modern Pentecostalism.”
What does this have to do with the origin of the Rapture doctrine? Look at what happened in the year 1830 — two years before Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church. In that year a revival of the “gifts” began to be manifested among some people living in the lowlands of Scotland. They experienced what they called the outpouring of the Spirit. It was accompanied with speak*ing in “tongues” and other charismatic phenomena. Irving preached that these things must occur and now they were.
On one particular evening, the power of the Holy Spirit was said to have rested on a Miss Margaret Macdonald while she was ill at home. She was dangerously sick and thought she was dying. In spite of this (or perhaps because she is supposed to have come under the “power” of the spirit) for several successive hours she experienced manifestations of “mingled prophecy and vision.” She found her mind in an altered state and began to experience considerable visionary activity.
The message she received during this prophetic vision convinced her that Christ was going to appear in two stages at His Second Advent, and not a single occasion as most all people formerly believed. The spirit emanation revealed that Christ would first come in glory to those who look for Him and again later in a final stage when every eye would see Him. This visionary experience of Miss Macdonald represented the prime source of the modern Rapture doctrine as the historical evidence compiled by Mr. MacPherson reveals.
[h=2]The Influence of John Darby[/h]Many people have thought that John Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren, was the originator of the Rapture doctrine. This is not the case. Darby was a brilliant theologian with outstanding scholarly abilities. Even those who disagreed with his teachings admit that he, and many associated with him, helped cause a revival in biblical learning throughout the evangelical world which has perpetuated down to the present day. All who love biblical research ought to be thankful for what Darby and especially his associates accomplished for biblical scholarship. These early men helped pave the way particularly for the renewal of modern lexical studies in the biblical languages.
This renewal of language studies was not the only thing they produced. The doctrine of “dispensationalism” was also a teaching they brought to the attention of the Protestant world. And then, there was this new doctrine termed the “Rapture.” While many Christians long thought the Rapture doctrine originated with John Darby, it is now known that this was not true. Darby did popularize it. Scofield and others took it over. But Darby provided the intellectual mantle that helped make it respectable. Many of those in the evangelical sphere of Christianity today are so certain of its veracity that it is accepted as the absolute truth of God. The fact is, however, John Darby received the knowledge of the doctrine from someone else. His source was Margaret Macdonald.
The studies of Mr. MacPherson show that her sickness during which she received her visions and revelations occurred sometime between February 1 and April 14, 1830. By late spring and early summer of 1830, her belief in the two phases of Christ’s coming was mentioned in praise and prayer meetings in several towns of western Scotland. In these meetings some people were speaking in “tongues” and other charismatic occurrences were in evidence. Modern “Pentecostalism” had its birth.
These extraordinary and strange events so attracted John Darby that he made a trip to the area to witness what was going on. Though he did not approve of the ecstatic episodes that he witnessed, it is nonetheless significant that Darby, after returning from Scotland, began to teach that Christ’s Advent would occur in two phases. MacPherson shows good evidence that Darby even visited Miss Macdonald in her home. There can hardly be any doubt that the visions and spiritual experiences of Miss Macdonald are the source of the modern doctrine. But belief in such paranormal experiences is dangerous, especially when they are contrary to scriptural teachings.
[h=2]Visions and Dreams[/h]While it is possible that visionary revelations can come from God, it is always prudent to be cautious in such matters. Near the same time Miss Macdonald was receiving her visions, Joseph Smith in America was experiencing his apparitions that brought Mormon doctrines to the world. John Wilson also had his dreams that were the spark that started the false teaching of British-Israelism. Not long afterwards, Ellen G. White received her visions that resulted in many Seventh Day Adventist teachings. And remarkably, all these individuals received revelations of doctrines supposedly from God that were much at variance with one another and contrary to biblical teachings. Such incidents bring to mind the warning that God gave to Moses.

“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto you, saying, ‘let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them’; you shall not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord proves [tests] you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”

Deuteronomy 13:1–3

In regard to the teachings of visionaries, recall what the apostle John commanded Christians.

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” [SUP]4[/SUP]

1 John 4:1

And though some refer to the prophecy of Daniel that “knowledge shall be increased” (Daniel 12:4) as proof that the revival of doctrinal truths will occur at the end of the age, this is not what Daniel meant. If you read the prophet carefully you will find Daniel was speaking that “the knowledge” of his prophecies will be increased, not the revival of general doctrines. In the original text of Daniel, the definite article occurs before the word “knowledge.” Daniel said “THE knowledge will be increased,” and the text shows he meant “the knowledge of his prophecies.” Daniel was in no way speaking about a renewing of doctrines at the Time of the End.
A further admonition is necessary concerning the origins of visionary teachings that might emerge near our own time. It is by the apostle Paul and we should pay close attention to it.

“Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.”

1 Timothy 4:1

These warnings from God’s word are a reminder that we should exercise caution in accepting the truthfulness of visionary revelations, particularly those near the end of the age, and which are contradictory to one another and to the Bible. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory is such a doctrine; a teaching with no scriptural warrant. After all, the Holy Scriptures makes it plain that the first resurrection (when Christians from the past have their resurrections and we are caught up to heaven with Christ) occurs after the Tribulation is over (Revelation 20:5). And though a number of people within the Body of Christ have taken up with this false doctrine, it is time to jettison it from Christian belief.
The truth is, we will be protected from the evils of the Antichrist system (and the judgments of the Great Tribulation) by a mantle of safety from God that will protect us on earth. There is only one Second Advent of Christ and that is the moment (for all of us then living) we will be changed into immortality and the resurrection of the dead takes place. That is when all of us will meet Christ in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18). We can believe this teaching with full assurance and faith. Remember, God cares for you and all the Body of Christ.
[HR][/HR] 1 To prevent people from understanding this natural meaning of the word, even the Concordant Version incorrectly translated the word as “former.” This is sad! This departure from the principles of true translation is against the very principles of proper translation that Concordant Version correctly endorse. The Concordant Version is in most places, however, an excellent translation of the New Testament. The lapse in this Version shows how strong doctrinal beliefs can be and how they influence translators to mistranslate texts of the Scriptures to support their false theories. All of us must reject this type of approach. ELM
2 See Dr. Martin’s articles “The Place of Safety” at The Place of Safety and “Personal Safety During End-Time Prophecy” at Personal Safety During End-Time Prophecy. DWS
3 An updated edition of this work by David MacPherson is retitled, The Rapture Plot (Simpsonville, SC: Millennium III Pub, 1995). ELM
4 This verse is also saying that false prophets have a relationship (in various and sundry ways) with spirits. DWS

Ahwatukee · Dec 9, 2016

Hello Buddyt,

We've heard all of the above over and over again. We didn't come to our understanding of end-time events on a whim, but through deep study of scripture. You on the other hand are simply repeating the same apologetic's that others proclaim. I've never read anything by Darby or scholfield and therefore, they have had no influence on me. I study scripture exclusively.

The mistranslation, or should I say, misunderstanding of the phrase "first resurrection" is not understanding that the first resurrection consists of phases or stages. Every resurrection that takes place prior to the one at the end of the millennial period comes under the banner of the first resurrection. Here are some of the major stages of the first resurrection:

* Jesus, the first fruits of the first resurrection

* The church at his appearing (1 Thes.4:13-18)

* The male child/144,000

* The two witnesses

* The great tribulation saints

The above are all resurrections or those who are alive and changed and caught up at different stages of the first resurrection. In between right now and until the time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (Rom.5:9, 1 Thes.1:10, 5:9).

If you have the church being resurrected in Rev.20:4-6, they you would be putting the church through the entire wrath of God. There isn't anything in your listing above that I haven't already come across or dealt with.

Those who are believing that the church will go through God's wrath first and then resurrected are simply not truly believing in or understanding what Christ fully did for us. Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve and thereby satisfying it. It would then be a dishonor to Christ for his followers to go through wrath that he already experienced on our behalf. Also, I don't get my information from Darby or Scholfield, but from scripture.

After Paul gave a detailed account of the gathering of the church in 1 Thes.4:13-18, he then said, "comfort one another with these words." In writing to Titus he also called the Lord's appearing and our being gathered to him as "the blessed hope." If the church was to go through God's wrath and be resurrected when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, there would be no comfort nor would it be a blessed hope.
We simply believe in God's promise to keep us out of His time of wrath.

buddyt · Dec 9, 2016

If the true believers were here at the time Satan shows up why does Revelation 9:4 read as it does. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those men which have NOT the seal of God in their foreheads. If these men were gone why this statement ?
The book of Ezekiel explains how God feels about the Raptor very well.Ezekiel 13:20-Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the soul to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
The word ‘hunt’ in Hebrew means, "lie in wait; to catch men." (Strong’s #6678)
In this study of Ezekiel chapter 13, you have the privilege of witnessing God’s anger slowly simmer into a rapid boil because of the demonic teaching of the ‘fly-away lie.’ A teaching that God said, "I am against" because they hunt to win the souls of My children to make them fly." You will soon find out our Father’s anger is directed at the preachers, teachers, prophets, and prophetesses because the sin of teaching the rapture is all inclusive. Both men and women tell this lie from the pulpit. Some teach this lie because they don’t know the truth, while Satan’s ministers of unrighteousness teach the lie deliberatively. Either way the lie is told and Christians are deceived. My question is, why would anyone want to teach something that God has said He is against?

samuel23 · Dec 9, 2016

The account by buddyt tells the truth. Unlike some, I had never read any book on the false pre-trib rapture, nor did I have any knowledge of Darby, or Macdonald, or church history. Just by simply reading the bible, I found that the pre-trib rapture was false. The problem is not the scriptural evidence, it is there very plain, the problem is that folks refuse to accept the evidence because it is contrary to their desires. I have pointed out in a previous post that the pre-trib rapture stands on the idea that Paul in the Thess letters wrote of a DIFFERENT return of Christ then the return that Jesus gave the apostles. It can be proven that Paul wrote of the same return that Jesus gave the apostles...therefore there is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture. The first church believed in the post-trib rapture before Paul was even converted, because that was the only return of Christ known to the church. Paul joined a post-trib believing church, so he had to have been post-trib. Compare the description Jesus gave of His return with the description Paul gave of Christ return, they are the same...because they are describing the same event. If Paul was describing the same return of Christ as Jesus gave to the apostles then nothing else matters...there is no pre-trib rapture.

Ahwatukee · Dec 9, 2016

samuel23 said:

Then you are one who is not believing that Christ took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, satisfying it. And you are not believing in the scripture which states that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

I will humor you though, please show us where the first church and Paul believed in a post-trib gathering of the church. For right away you are in trouble with this view, because post-trib puts the church through the entire wrath of God. The wrath of God is the barrier and it must take place in between right now and when Christ returns. There is no way around this, unless you do what some have by reinterpreting the coming wrath or allegorizing/symbolizing it.

I refuse to accept it because your evidence is false, misapplied scripture. You continue to cite Matt.24 and I have already discredited that as referring to Israel. No thank you! I will trust in the Lord's promise to gather his church prior to His wrath being poured out. If you understood the severity and magnitude of the coming wrath, you would not be proclaiming that the church will go through that. The entire earth will be exposed to those plagues of wrath and there will be no where to hide.

Your on-going problem is not discerning the difference between the scriptures that are in reference to the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. I already revealed who is riding on those white horses following Christ out of heaven. In order to follow him out of heaven, you would have to already be there.

The Lord will come for his bride, the church, prior to the pouring out of his wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Persuaded · Dec 9, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Then you are one who is not believing that Christ took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, satisfying it. And you are not believing in the scripture which states that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

I will humor you though, please show us where the first church and Paul believed in a post-trib gathering of the church. For right away you are in trouble with this view, because post-trib puts the church through the entire wrath of God. The wrath of God is the barrier and it must take place in between right now and when Christ returns. There is no way around this, unless you do what some have by reinterpreting the coming wrath or allegorizing/symbolizing it.

I refuse to accept it because your evidence is false, misapplied scripture. You continue to cite Matt.24 and I have already discredited that as referring to Israel. No thank you! I will trust in the Lord's promise to gather his church prior to His wrath being poured out. If you understood the severity and magnitude of the coming wrath, you would not be proclaiming that the church will go through that. The entire earth will be exposed to those plagues of wrath and there will be no where to hide.

Your on-going problem is not discerning the difference between the scriptures that are in reference to the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. I already revealed who is riding on those white horses following Christ out of heaven. In order to follow him out of heaven, you would have to already be there.

The Lord will come for his bride, the church, prior to the pouring out of his wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

God's wrath is not poured out until after the seventh trump return of Christ and His gathering unto Him the saints.
Then the seven bowls of God's wrath will be poured out.
You still refuse to see that the coming TRIBULATION is not God's wrath.
Two different words with two different meanings.
It seems to me that with your intelligence you could see that.

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