"replacement theology" - what is it?

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Aug 15, 2009
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An interesting argument against this, is that there were Jews living in Israel long before partition. In fact the Orthodox rabbis were totally against the Zionist Israel, because they believed, rightly so, that it was a creation of men, not God.

WHY ORTHODOX JEWS ARE OPPOSED TO THE ZIONIST STATE

1) What is "The People of Israel" ?

  • The People of Israel have existed for thousands of years.
  • They have their own particular, essential nature.
  • The Torah is the source of their essential nature.
  • Without Torah and Faith there is no People of Israel.
  • Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the People of Israel.
  • The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine Service.
  • Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.
2) What is Zionism?

  • Zionism is a relatively new thing.
  • It has only existed for a century.
  • Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the People of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character - a materialistic worldly nation.
  • Their misfortune is lack of what other nations possess, i.e. a state and army.
  • Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.
  • This is clearly spelled out in the circles of Zionist thought, and among the leaders of the Zionist State, that through changing the nature and character of the People of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation" -- a state and an army.
The People of Israel oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons:
FIRST -- The so-called "State of Israel" is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the People of Israel, as is explained above. The only time that the People of Israel were permitted to have a state was two thousand years ago when the glory of the creator was upon us, and likewise in the future when the glory of the creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him, then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service. However, a worldly state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel. Whoever calls this the salvation of Israel shows that he denies the essence of the People of Israel, and substitutes another nature, a worldly materialistic nature, and therefore sets before them, a worldly materialistic "salvation," and the means of achieving this "salvation" is also worldly and materialistic i.e. to organize a land and army. However, the true salvation of the People of Israel is to draw close to the Creator. This is not done by organization and force of arms. Rather it is done by occupation to Torah and good deeds.
SECOND -- Because of all of this and other reasons the Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed He, in His Glory and Essence will redeem us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as is explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. If we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.
THIRD -- Aside from arising from exile, all the deeds of the Zionists are diametrically opposed to the Faith and the Torah. Because the foundation of the Faith and Torah of Israel is that the Torah was revealed from heaven, and there is reward for those who obey it and punishment for those who transgress it. The entire People of Israel is required to obey the Torah, and whoever doesn't want to, ceases to be part of the congregation of Israel.
FOURTH -- Aside from the fact that they themselves do not obey the Torah they do everything they can to prevent anyone they get under their power from fulfilling the commands of the Torah, the claims to freedom of religion are lies. They fight with all of their strength to destroy the Faith of Israel.
The Zionists claim that they are the saviors of Israel, but this is refuted by twelve things:
FIRST -- If one contemplates the two thousand years of our exile, take any hundred years even the hardest, one will not find as much suffering, bloodshed, and catastrophes for the People of Israel in the period of the Zionists, and it is known that most of the suffering of this century was caused by the Zionists, as our Rabbis warned us would be the case.

SECOND -- It is openly stated in books written by the founders of Zionism that the means by which they planned to establish a state was by instigating anti-Semitism, and undermining the security of the Jews in all the lands of the world, until they would be forced to flee to their state. And thus they did - They intentionally infuriated the German people and fanned the flames of Nazi hatred, and they helped the Nazis, with trickery and deceit, to take whole Jewish communities off to the concentration camps, and the Zionists themselves admit this. (See the books Perfidy, Min Hameitzor, etc.). The Zionists continue to practice this strategy today. They incite anti-Semitism and then they present themselves as the "saviors". Here are two replies given by Leaders of the Zionists during World War II, when they were asked for money to help ransom Jews from the Nazis. Greenbaum said "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland." (G-d forbid).
Weitzman said, "The most important part of the Jewish people is already in the land (of Israel) and those who are left, are unimportant" (May we be spared).

THIRD -- We see that most of world Jewry lives in security and under good physical conditions, and have no desire to go live in the Zionist State. Whereas many people have left the Zionist State to live under better conditions in other lands.

FOURTH -- The Zionists make a great deal of propaganda to induce people to immigrate to their state. If their state is so beneficial why do they have to make so much propaganda.

FIFTH -- Because nobody wants the Zionists to "save" them. The only way they can get immigrants is by promising poor people material benefits, and even then very few people respond.

SIXTH -- The Zionist State is always threatened by the dangers of war. Whereas the rest of world Jewry live in peace and security, (Except in a few places where the Zionists have undermined their security and fanned the flames of hatred)

SEVENTH -- The Zionist State could not continue to exist without economic support from Jews living outside of the Zionist State.

EIGHTH -- The Zionist State is on the verge of economic collapse, and their money is nearly worthless.

NINTH -- The Zionist State persecute all Jews who are loyal to their Faith.

TENTH -- They start wars that endanger the Jewish People, for the sake of their own political interests.

ELEVENTH - According to the Torah the path of safety is following ways of peace not starting fights with other nations, as the Zionists do.

TWELFTH -- Even if the Zionists could and would provide physical security it would be at the expense of our Faith and Our Torah the true People of Israel prefer death rather than life at such a cost.

It is therefore clear that Zionism is not the savior of the people of Israel. Rather it is their greatest misfortune.
Even though there are some observant Jews and rabbis, who approve of the Zionists, this is not the opinion of the Torah.
The Zionists have enough control over the American news media to make sure that only their side of the story is heard.
They make it look like all Jewry and their rabbis are Zionists, but this is false propaganda.
The most important Rabbis and the majority of religious Jewry are opposed to Zionism, but their voice is not heard because of Zionist control of American news media.
The Zionists terrorize everyone who speaks out against them.
That part of the Jewish masses which is fooled by Zionist propaganda puts pressure on their Rabbis not to speak out.
Between the terror and the pressure of the masses most of the Rabbis are prevented from speaking out.
We bring three testimonies of the true opinion of the Torah.

1) In the past two thousand years of the dangers and sufferings of exile not once did any of the Sages of Israel suggest that we make a state to protect ourselves. In every generation we had thousands of Sages well versed in the Torah.

2) We have thousands of legal work of Torah law that have been handed down to us by the Sages of all generations. Not once do we see a word suggesting the establishment of a state. What we do find is warnings against it.

3) The founders of Zionism were all atheists who denied the Torah. All the Torah Sages of that time opposed them and opposed Zionism, saying that Zionism would lead only to destruction.
However the true People of Israel will never change their nature or give up their Faith because of the strength the Creator gives them.
Zionism is a foreign growth in the body of the Jewish People. The end will be that it will rid itself of this foreign growth and remain pure.
Zionism has overcome the Jewish people by force, fraud and terror, but none of this will help them because the truth will always remain with the help of the Creator.
Zionism will not replace the Jewish People. The Jewish People will remain strong in their faith and the Zionist State will cease to exist.
It is therefore, our demand that the State that calls itself ISRAEL, should cease to exist. Since this won't be done, we demand that they cease to call themselves "Israel", because their entire being is in complete opposition to the true People of Israel. The true People of Israel deny them permission to call themselves by that name. The Zionist leaders have no right to set themselves up as the representatives and spokesmen of the true People of ISRAEL.
Since we know they will not fulfill this demand either we feel that at least we cry out the truth. The truth will always remain the truth. By no means or force can the truth be changed. Even if all the world would say that one and one is three, the truth will remain that one and one is two.
Let the truth be declared. The use of the Name "ISRAEL" by that State is a complete falsification. The People of Israel have nothing to do with that State. Zionism and its State have no share and no part in the true ISRAEL.

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm​
And these Zionists are Ashkenazi Jews, not true jews, correct?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Yes, Israel will not rule Jesus will. And the church will be worldwide as never before.. And these silly argments will be gone forever, because as scripture says, we will not have to teach our neighbor, because they to will know.
so you have jews ("Israel") saved; "the church" (gentiles?) saved - so who is left?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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.....It's what God considers Jewish, not man's opinion like the OJ.
Romans 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Right now Israel is not at war. Are you talking about reprisals (airstikes) after the other side started it...... Hey, just tell them to quit throwing rockets over the border. Israel will not attack anybody unless attacked.
arg.....how does one deal with this?
are you kidding?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Jesus said He was coming back to the nation Israel.

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Notice the, you will not see me until. Until when? Until they say blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.

Notice it doesn't say if. It's not if you say blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.

There will be a day when Jerusalem will say blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! and the Lord will return to ZION!
Matthew 21:9
The crowds going ahead of Him, and those who followed, were shouting, "Hosanna to the Son of David; BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD; Hosanna in the highest!"
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
arg.....how does one deal with this?
are you kidding?
No,he's not kidding,he's telling the truth. Israel wants to live in peace and has given up land,that belongs to them,to secure peace. But it wont happen because Arabs want them pushed into the sea.There wont be peace until Jesus...never mind you dont believe that part of the Bible either.
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
Why blame the Romans ? Wasn't it the Roman hierarchy that was responsible ? Should we blame the Roman nation for the acts of a few ? Why are you anti-Roman ? :cool:

Since you seemed to have missed it...
Mark 10:32-34

32 They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him.33 “We are going up to Jerusalem,” he said, “and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law.They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles,34 who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise.”



Luke 9:22-26

22 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”


Luke 21:37-22:6

Now the Festival of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching,2 and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people.3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.4 And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus.5 They were delighted and agreed to give him money.6 He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.


Luke 22:66-23:56

At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and the teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them.67 “If you are the Messiah,” they said, “tell us.”
Then the whole assembly rose and led him off to Pilate. 2 And they began to accuse him, saying, “We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Messiah, a king.”...

8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform a sign of some sort. 9 He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer.
10 The chief priests and the teachers of the law were standing there, vehemently accusing him.

Pilate called together the chief priests, the rulers and the people,14 and said to them, “You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him.

Matthew 26:3-5

3
Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4 and they schemed to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him. 5 “But not during the festival,” they said, “or there may be a riot among the people.”


Matt 21

Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him; and even after you saw it, you did not change your minds and believe him. "Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard, put a fence around it, dug a wine press in it, and built a watchtower. Then he leased it to tenants and went to another country. When the harvest time had come, he sent his slaves to the tenants to collect his produce. But the tenants seized his slaves and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again he sent other slaves, more than the first; and they treated them in the same way. Finally he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and get his inheritance." So they seized him, threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him. Now when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and lease the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the produce at the harvest time." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the scriptures: 'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is amazing in our eyes'? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that produces the fruits of the kingdom. The one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls."
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they realized that he was speaking about them. They wanted to arrest him, but they feared the crowds, because they regarded him as a prophet."


All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted.
But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. . .
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel!
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisees! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may become clean.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth. So you also on the outside look righteous to others, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous, and you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' Thus you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors. You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

Luke 11

"Woe to you Pharisees! For you love to have the seat of honor in the synagogues and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces.
Woe to you! For you are like unmarked graves, and people walk over them without realizing it." One of the lawyers ( a professional student of "the Law and the Prophets") answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us too." And he said,
"Woe also to you lawyers! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not lift a finger to ease them.
Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets whom your ancestors killed. So you are witnesses and approve of the deeds of your ancestors; for they killed them, and you build their tombs. Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,' so that this generation may be charged with the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,"


John 12

"When the great crowd of the (Leaders of the) Jews learned that he was there, they came not only because of Jesus but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead.
So the chief priests planned to put Lazarus to death as well, since it was on account of him that many of the (Leaders of the) Jews were deserting and were believing in Jesus.


Jesus told us who was going to kill Him. The chief priests,Pharisees wanted to kill Him.He escaped until His time for death came. Many times they wanted to arrest Him but didn't for fear of "the people".Who were they? Jews! They were believing in Jesus and that was a treat to the establishment,to the religious rulers and that is why they sought to kill Him. The Romans nailed Him to the cross,our sins put Him there.THAT is who killed Jesus. Not "Jews" as a race.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
arg.....how does one deal with this?
are you kidding?
no, it is a serious issue.

peoples lives are at stake, Why put one life over another?

again, If Isreal was the USA and Mexico was the instigator. People would be screaming for the USA to take action.

But since it is Israel Well history shows, the world hates her. so that is different. lets all join in and attack Israel, she has no right to defend her citizens.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Matthew 21:9
The crowds going ahead of Him, and those who followed, were shouting, "Hosanna to the Son of David; BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD; Hosanna in the highest!"
so Jesus got it wrong?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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No,he's not kidding,he's telling the truth. Israel wants to live in peace and has given up land,that belongs to them,to secure peace. But it wont happen because Arabs want them pushed into the sea.There wont be peace until Jesus...never mind you dont believe that part of the Bible either.
run along now child
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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.....THAT is who killed Jesus. Not "Jews" as a race.
ya plainguy - how many times do you have to be told that jews as a race (what? jews aren't a race) didn't kill Jesus.
come on plainguy. admit it - apparently you believe a race can be judged for something some people did 2000 ago.
pppfffft
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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no, it is a serious issue.

peoples lives are at stake, Why put one life over another?

again, If Isreal was the USA and Mexico was the instigator. People would be screaming for the USA to take action.

But since it is Israel Well history shows, the world hates her. so that is different. lets all join in and attack Israel, she has no right to defend her citizens.
LOLOLOLOL.....this is so old.
so late 1800's haha
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Right now Israel is not at war. Are you talking about reprisals (airstikes) after the other side started it...... Hey, just tell them to quit throwing rockets over the border. Israel will not attack anybody unless attacked.
Unfortunately the settlements are 100% apartheid and often on land taken from others.
The justification is often on some relic, which means it must be jewish, or put it another way,
Israelis are claiming the right to take other property without paying or negotiating for it.

Now extreme right wing muslim groups are the same as extreme right wing Israeli groups,
though it is all put in religious language.

Now the point is Israel is a nation, and God bless that nation, but it has to stand on justice
and truth like any other govening group. The problem is christians reading in messanic meaning
into a political movement. I have always been against any anti-jewish sentiment, but injustice,
and claiming rights by a secular state on a religious ground is pure hypocracy. God will withdraw
his covering if justice does not prevail. The problem is if Israel justifies its existance on the back
of muslim hatred, this is not health or good.

Our enemy is blind obedience as shown by ISIS, which can occur anywhere.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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pardon me?

Matthew 21:9
The crowds going ahead of Him, and those who followed, were shouting, "Hosanna to the Son of David; BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD; Hosanna in the highest!"
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
run along now child

Yep,you keep bossing people around,and yet no one listens. Imagine that. Open forum, free to say what I want as much as you are. And I'll point out false doctrine all day long. Put me on ignore,problem solved.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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Yep,you keep bossing people around,and yet no one listens. Imagine that. Open forum, free to say what I want as much as you are. And I'll point out false doctrine all day long. Put me on ignore,problem solved.
go play dear.
someone can explain this to you later. when you're ready
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
ya plainguy - how many times do you have to be told that jews as a race (what? jews aren't a race) didn't kill Jesus.
come on plainguy. admit it - apparently you believe a race can be judged for something some people did 2000 ago.
pppfffft
So what Jesus said was what a lie? He TOLD US who killed him and it wasn't the Jewish people. The race IS NOT culpable for His death. Jesus didn't say that. Read the verses!
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
go play dear.
someone can explain this to you later. when you're ready
​Grow up zone and act like a lady. Trying to jerk me around with insults is childish and getting old. Discuss the facts and stop with the kindergarten insults. Its unbecoming for someone your age and unChrist like.