THAT is the thing for me. If I find that no matter how hard I try I am not truly forgiving someone for their abuse or despiteful use of me, I insist on walking in the light (the truth) and admitting to God that it is impossible for me. It's better to walk in the truth and admit the truth than to try to convince myself that I don't still have some resentment at them for what they've done. He wants TRUTH in the inward parts. Not hypocrites who say but don't do. And when I confess my weakness and inability to do what He has commanded, His strength and power come and He gets forgiveness in my heart. Don't ask me how. That act of going to Him and admitting that I can't do what He told me to do is the very thing I think He's looking for from me. It's the catalyst somehow - when I am weak, and admit my weakness, He runs to my aid to fight this enemy within me. When I insist I am obeying when I'm not, this enemy continues to torment me.
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When I was a kid, work was done to avoid punishment.
When I moved out on my own, work was done for lack of servants and the money to afford them. (No one else was going to clean my apartment. lol)
When I became married, work became something to take care of him, so he doesn't have to do it. It's an act of love.
We have Christ, so we should know the difference between working to avoid punishment and working to show our love for the one we love. Anyone who thinks we shouldn't be working is still expecting Dad to do it for us if we bawk long enough.
That's a childish concept, not a godly one.
(Not saying that describes you, Breno. Just my response to whoever is playing that game with forgiveness.)
When I moved out on my own, work was done for lack of servants and the money to afford them. (No one else was going to clean my apartment. lol)
When I became married, work became something to take care of him, so he doesn't have to do it. It's an act of love.
We have Christ, so we should know the difference between working to avoid punishment and working to show our love for the one we love. Anyone who thinks we shouldn't be working is still expecting Dad to do it for us if we bawk long enough.
That's a childish concept, not a godly one.
(Not saying that describes you, Breno. Just my response to whoever is playing that game with forgiveness.)
I think what they intend to say is that if forgiveness is a requirement for your own forgiveness from God, then it is works based salvation. (I don't agree with them, want to make that clear), but they intend to mean it not as you say, as a requirement in our walk, but rather as a requirement for our own forgiveness. (To reiterate, I don't agree or care for their doing away with our Lords words that if we don't forgive and show forth to others the forgiveness and mercy that was granted to us, then we will be judged the same way we judged them, i.e., If we refuse to extend mercy and forgiveness, thinking that because of something they did, they don't merit it, then we will be judged the same way for whatever we have done. In the same measure you poured out, it will be given to you.
Abundant mercy and forgiveness was shown to you. If you bury it and refuse to grow this treasure you have been given, it will be taken from you and given to those who grow the kings wealth.
Abundant mercy and forgiveness was shown to you. If you bury it and refuse to grow this treasure you have been given, it will be taken from you and given to those who grow the kings wealth.
Yes, I knew it's what you were saying. I was agreeing and adding my thoughts to your post. 
Yes, if we go to God for what we need and the lack we see in ourselves, we are attesting to believing what He has said is good. In this case, we find that our will is to forgive but that our flesh is weak and we can't do the good we want to do.
This is a true case of where Paul says, then it isn't we who are willfully sinning, but sin in us has a grip on this area.
We see our poverty of spirit and we ask Him for what we need. We are asking Him to slay this enemy because he is too strong for us.
But if we think we aren't poor, we won't beg for what we need. But if we lack anything we need to do His will and we ask for what we need, He will provide it. After you have struggled a while, He will strengthen, perfect and establish you. That's in 1 peter somewhere.
Yes, if we go to God for what we need and the lack we see in ourselves, we are attesting to believing what He has said is good. In this case, we find that our will is to forgive but that our flesh is weak and we can't do the good we want to do.
This is a true case of where Paul says, then it isn't we who are willfully sinning, but sin in us has a grip on this area.
We see our poverty of spirit and we ask Him for what we need. We are asking Him to slay this enemy because he is too strong for us.
But if we think we aren't poor, we won't beg for what we need. But if we lack anything we need to do His will and we ask for what we need, He will provide it. After you have struggled a while, He will strengthen, perfect and establish you. That's in 1 peter somewhere.
We forgive because we have the nature of our loving Father and Lord in us - in our new creation in Christ.
In the new covenant because of the blood of Jesus we are forgiven and so we too forgive. The more our minds are renewed to this truth - the more we are transformed outwardly in our behavior to reflect who we truly are in our "union" with the Lord. Romans 12:2 & 1 Cor. 6:17
Ephesians 4:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.
Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
When we have our minds renewed to this truth - His life will become manifested in us - which includes the ability to forgive others. Forgiving is different from forgetting.
In the new covenant because of the blood of Jesus we are forgiven and so we too forgive. The more our minds are renewed to this truth - the more we are transformed outwardly in our behavior to reflect who we truly are in our "union" with the Lord. Romans 12:2 & 1 Cor. 6:17
Ephesians 4:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.
Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
When we have our minds renewed to this truth - His life will become manifested in us - which includes the ability to forgive others. Forgiving is different from forgetting.
Both are refusing to lay down their life (of pride, hurt feelings, demand for respect or honor) for each other. They will take another believer "to court" rather than forgiving and loving even if someone is being "unlovable." They are not acting as their Lord. They are not picking up their cross and laying down their life for each other. They answer a revile for a revile, a curse for a curse. They refuse to forgive unless the other first earns their forgiveness.
We would be in big trouble if our Lord had done that.
We would be in big trouble if our Lord had done that.
Forgiving does not mean we need to let them in our lives either in some instances.
We can forgive others for their behavior but if there is no repentance - we don't need to let them in our house to ruin the rest of the people. That is what church discipline is all about.
This is why Paul says not to "associate" with certain types of people that remain in bad behavior. It's not that they are not forgiven - it's because they will continue to defile the others because of their bad behavior. Hebrews 12:15 is very clear that this does happen.
I can forgive a child molester but I will not let them around my family if they are not repented and exhibited a changed mind in their behavior.
We can forgive others for their behavior but if there is no repentance - we don't need to let them in our house to ruin the rest of the people. That is what church discipline is all about.
This is why Paul says not to "associate" with certain types of people that remain in bad behavior. It's not that they are not forgiven - it's because they will continue to defile the others because of their bad behavior. Hebrews 12:15 is very clear that this does happen.
I can forgive a child molester but I will not let them around my family if they are not repented and exhibited a changed mind in their behavior.
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I believe there is still hope for people to learn forgiveness as long as they are alive and draw breathe.
If they don't forgive, stay bitter, demand judgement of other people, then God will chested and judge them. They may go through trials and hardships to make them examine their heart and lives and see what they need to let die and who they need to forgive...
Bitterness springs forthe from anger and unforgiveness. Its fruit are strife, contention, lack of peace and joy.
If they don't forgive, stay bitter, demand judgement of other people, then God will chested and judge them. They may go through trials and hardships to make them examine their heart and lives and see what they need to let die and who they need to forgive...
Bitterness springs forthe from anger and unforgiveness. Its fruit are strife, contention, lack of peace and joy.
I'm not talking about child molestation. I am talking about letting God change my heart instead of demanding a change in others. I see the problems and the poverty in me instead of trying to deal with the problems and poverty of someone else.
Child molesters have nothing to do with what I am speaking of. Miles away from what I am speaking of.
Child molesters have nothing to do with what I am speaking of. Miles away from what I am speaking of.
Just thoughts about "forgiving others" and not any specific offenses.......
We are instructed to forgive those who trespass against us........ONE REASON
Not forgiving others only hurts us..............ANOTHER REASON
For me, these two are the main motivation for "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"
Now, forgiving and forgetting are two different things.............just saying.....Man can forgive, God is able to forget.....
We are instructed to forgive those who trespass against us........ONE REASON
Not forgiving others only hurts us..............ANOTHER REASON
For me, these two are the main motivation for "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"
Now, forgiving and forgetting are two different things.............just saying.....Man can forgive, God is able to forget.....
I'm not talking about child molestation. I am talking about letting God change my heart instead of demanding a change in others. I see the problems and the poverty in me instead of trying to deal with the problems and poverty of someone else.
Child molesters have nothing to do with what I am speaking of. Miles away from what I am speaking of.
Child molesters have nothing to do with what I am speaking of. Miles away from what I am speaking of.
I am not referring to child molesters either per se. I use that as an analogy of not allowing those that keep doing their bad behavior to defile others in the church and that goes for every place where we encounter such behavior.
As Paul says "Do not be deceived bad company corrupts". 1 Cor 15:33
I don't believe these bad thoughts come from the heart because we have a new heart in Christ but the flesh with the law of sin in it sure loves to get us to act on these thoughts. ( But that is a different subject )
I agree that it is definitely in the mind where these bad thoughts can get lodged and excite the flesh to act on these thoughts.
It's the bad behavior that can cause us to be defiled because of the bitterness that can spring up from our flesh if we don't guard our minds. There was a reason Paul said not to associate with any " so-called brothers" that continue to exhibit bad behavior and express no repentance.
Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
I believe that's why Peter says to "gird up your minds" in the KJV or in the NASB says to "prepare your minds for action" and to fix our hope completely on the grace that comes with the revelation of Jesus Christ.
The battle ground is definitely in the mind of the Christian.
1 Peter 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
I think it's good for us to be around bad behavior at times so we can get exercised and grow. He puts us in our circumstances. If He always kept me from being around bad behavior, I would never learn from Him how to not get my own flesh stirred up by someone elses choosing to walk that way. So their bad behavior does not defile me, in fact, He uses it to exercise, prove my own faith, and grow me in virtue, which is acquired under pressures and straightenings. And one of the results is that I learn to love that bad behavior person because how could I not love someone who God used as an instrument to bring me great gain?!
So their bad behavior does not defile me, in fact, He uses it to exercise, prove my own faith, and grow me in virtue, which is acquired under pressures and straightenings. And one of the results is that I learn to love that bad behavior person because how could I not love someone who God used as an instrument to bring me great gain?!