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Here I have to disagree with you dc....... "The Dead in Christ shall rise. In other words, these people believed in Jesus or called upon his name when they died.
Please read the following:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)
"13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Here it tells you those who believe "WE which are ALIVE and REMAIN"...........
It is only the believers that will go.
The biggest problem with the movies "left behind",,,,,,they are too mamby-pamby.... When 1/3 of the people of earth are going to die,,,,it is a big thing. Earthquakes that levels all walls and mountains.
If they showed it with those that 'now-- after the rapture' believe will have their heads cut off, and thousands dying, many more people would be asking us questions instead of scoffing at us.
The rapture is a second comming of the Lord Jesus rapture.. We shall be caught up into the air by the angels to meet Jesus on the Day of the LORD, which is the day of His second comming.. Both the dead in Christ and the ones who are alive will be caught up and from that day on be with Jesus...
Jesus is comming to earth and we shall be returning with Him to rulewith Him for a period of 1000 Years before the Day of the Final Judgement... Read The Book of Revelation chapters 19 and 20 for the cronological order of things...
Jesus is comming to earth and we shall be returning with Him to rulewith Him for a period of 1000 Years before the Day of the Final Judgement... Read The Book of Revelation chapters 19 and 20 for the cronological order of things...
In the same way that God used Nebuchadnezzar and other Gentile kings and their armies to punish Israel, God will use the antichrist to fulfill that last seven years of his decree of seventy seven year periods. Everything that the antichrist does is apart of God's wrath, not Satan's.
The fact that the Lamb/Jesus is the One opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets and bowl judgments, demonstrates that he is the one initiating them and is responsible for those events and their resulting fatalities. Satan is just apart of God's wrath.
The fact that the Lamb/Jesus is the One opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets and bowl judgments, demonstrates that he is the one initiating them and is responsible for those events and their resulting fatalities. Satan is just apart of God's wrath.
Yes Jesus told us that Christians in that time should look up when all these events are coming to pass.. If the pre-tribulation rapture was correct there would be no Christians here on earth to look up to see the second comming of the LORD Jesus Christ...
Luke 21 KJV
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
People would do well to open their Bibles and read all the verses in Luke Chapter 21 down to this verse 28 and read about all the signs that Christians will be seeing during those times...
Luke 21 KJV
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
People would do well to open their Bibles and read all the verses in Luke Chapter 21 down to this verse 28 and read about all the signs that Christians will be seeing during those times...
M
Somehow you're missing the straightforward biblical fact...in which Jesus told Peter, James and John they needed to have an expectation of seeing the "abomination of desolation" and to have an expectation of enduring the "great tribulation" AFTER which they would see great cosmic signs and experience the "gathering of the elect" supernatural translation/"rapture"...
...no matter HOW you define which wrath is which, and which way said wrath is headed and from whom.
Not to mention, Jesus quotes Joel 2:31 when referring to the cosmic signs...and notice what Joel says there:
"The sun will turn to darkness and the moon to blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes".
So...God does not commence his "terribleness" until AFTER the appearance of these cosmic signs. And Jesus, who quotes Joel 2:31, says the believers will be raptured just moments after the cosmic signs.
So if God does not commence His wrath until the cosmic signs...where does that leave the argument that God's wrath begins earlier?
Not to mention, Jesus told Peter, James and John in point-blank fashion, they need ed to have an expectation of "great tribulation".
When did Peter, James and John adopt a belief that flat-out contradicted what Jesus told them in the Olivet Discourse?
...no matter HOW you define which wrath is which, and which way said wrath is headed and from whom.
Not to mention, Jesus quotes Joel 2:31 when referring to the cosmic signs...and notice what Joel says there:
"The sun will turn to darkness and the moon to blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes".
So...God does not commence his "terribleness" until AFTER the appearance of these cosmic signs. And Jesus, who quotes Joel 2:31, says the believers will be raptured just moments after the cosmic signs.
So if God does not commence His wrath until the cosmic signs...where does that leave the argument that God's wrath begins earlier?
Not to mention, Jesus told Peter, James and John in point-blank fashion, they need ed to have an expectation of "great tribulation".
When did Peter, James and John adopt a belief that flat-out contradicted what Jesus told them in the Olivet Discourse?
Hello Adstar,
One of the on-going errors today for expositors, is not recognizing that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events. Along with that, is a lack of understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming, unprecedented wrath. For if they understood both of these, they would not make the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth as being the same event.
First of all, the church is not caught up in the air by angels. When Christ appears, he will bring with him the spirits of those who have died in him and they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. An instant after that, those believers who are still alive will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will meet with those who were just previously resurrected, the whole group meeting the Lord in the air.
Aside from one of the signs of our being gathered being the "voice of the archangel," there is no mention of angels gathering us when the Lord appears for the church. As previously mentioned, this error stems from not recognizing the difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to end the age.
The initial error is their interpreting Matt.24:29-31 as being the gathering of the church. What they have not understood is that, when the angels are sent out, they will be gathering living people from all over the earth. This is synonymous with the parable of the weeds and wheat of Matt.13:24-29, 36-42, which describes the angels as the harvesters who "first" gather the weeds to be taken and thrown into the fire. After that, they will go throughout the earth and gather the wheat/saints who made it through that last seven years until Christ's return to the earth. Matt.24:31 is neither referring to the dead being raised, nor living believers being transformed. Everyone that will be gathered by the angels at that time will be those still in their mortal bodies. Below is a comparison of the two events:
1) At the gathering of the church, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).
2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The gathering of the church occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
3) The gathering of the church is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
4) The gathering of the church will take place like a thief in the night in and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).
5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
Another obstacle when interpreting the church as being gathered when the Lord returns to earth to end the age, is that it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which scripture proclaims that we are not appointed to suffer (Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9).
One of the on-going errors today for expositors, is not recognizing that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events. Along with that, is a lack of understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming, unprecedented wrath. For if they understood both of these, they would not make the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth as being the same event.
First of all, the church is not caught up in the air by angels. When Christ appears, he will bring with him the spirits of those who have died in him and they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. An instant after that, those believers who are still alive will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will meet with those who were just previously resurrected, the whole group meeting the Lord in the air.
Aside from one of the signs of our being gathered being the "voice of the archangel," there is no mention of angels gathering us when the Lord appears for the church. As previously mentioned, this error stems from not recognizing the difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to end the age.
The initial error is their interpreting Matt.24:29-31 as being the gathering of the church. What they have not understood is that, when the angels are sent out, they will be gathering living people from all over the earth. This is synonymous with the parable of the weeds and wheat of Matt.13:24-29, 36-42, which describes the angels as the harvesters who "first" gather the weeds to be taken and thrown into the fire. After that, they will go throughout the earth and gather the wheat/saints who made it through that last seven years until Christ's return to the earth. Matt.24:31 is neither referring to the dead being raised, nor living believers being transformed. Everyone that will be gathered by the angels at that time will be those still in their mortal bodies. Below is a comparison of the two events:
1) At the gathering of the church, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).
2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The gathering of the church occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
3) The gathering of the church is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
4) The gathering of the church will take place like a thief in the night in and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).
5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
Another obstacle when interpreting the church as being gathered when the Lord returns to earth to end the age, is that it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which scripture proclaims that we are not appointed to suffer (Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9).
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Hello MattTooFor,
You have to understand the audience that Jesus is speaking about. With the mention of the abomination being set up in the holy place within the temple and the warning to flee from Judea to the mountains, as well as the reference to that event not taking place on the Sabbath, Jesus is speaking to Israel. This is in reference to when that image of the antichirst/beast is set up in the temple, when he proclaims himself to be God. The church is not in view here and cannot be on the earth during this time, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Those Gentile saints who will be on the earth during that time, will be those who will have not been prepared for Christ's appearing to gather the church and those who will have continued to reject him. Those signs that you mention above are for those saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17, who will be here during that time of God's wrath, for the church must be removed prior to God's wrath being poured out.
You have to understand the audience that Jesus is speaking about. With the mention of the abomination being set up in the holy place within the temple and the warning to flee from Judea to the mountains, as well as the reference to that event not taking place on the Sabbath, Jesus is speaking to Israel. This is in reference to when that image of the antichirst/beast is set up in the temple, when he proclaims himself to be God. The church is not in view here and cannot be on the earth during this time, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Those Gentile saints who will be on the earth during that time, will be those who will have not been prepared for Christ's appearing to gather the church and those who will have continued to reject him. Those signs that you mention above are for those saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17, who will be here during that time of God's wrath, for the church must be removed prior to God's wrath being poured out.
That is not the Rapture, that is the point in time when the Saints who married the lamb in Heaven, come back with Jesus, immediately after the tribulation. The Rapture happens 7 years before this, the Rapture is Matthew 24:32-44. Jesus told his Jewish "SHEEP" about both the Rapture, and the so called Second Coming, which is Jesus and the Saints landing on the Mt. of Olives, after we have married the Lamb, when we return, the Angels are sent to gather us from the four corners of HEAVEN.....Since there will be Messianic Jews (a few) and many Non-Believers in Christ, UNTIL Elijah turns then back unto God via Jesus the Messiah.
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Hello Ahwatukee..
One of the very damaging beliefs that has many decieved these days is the belief that the second coming of Jesus and the rapture are two seperate events.. I hope that as many as possible can be freed from the false doctrine that the rapture is something that happens before the return of the LORD Jesus Christ.. I hope that you and others life you have your belief on this issue transformed to the correct position so that the error of a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine can be removed from the Body of Christ...
One of the very damaging beliefs that has many decieved these days is the belief that the second coming of Jesus and the rapture are two seperate events.. I hope that as many as possible can be freed from the false doctrine that the rapture is something that happens before the return of the LORD Jesus Christ.. I hope that you and others life you have your belief on this issue transformed to the correct position so that the error of a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine can be removed from the Body of Christ...
I never said that the dead do not rise first... That is something you have made up and put into my mouth popeye.. I believe exactly what the scriptures say on the matter.. Please be honest in your discussions on the matter and cease using dishonest debating tactics of putting words into other peoples mouths that they have not stated..
M
No, he is not (all due respect). He is speaking to "the disciples"...to Peter, James, John, and Andrew.
I would argue, you have no biblically-based authority by which to alter the text...in saying Jesus was speaking to "Israel".
The Olivet Discourse text states "the disciples came to Jesus, asking Him...". The Olivet Discourse is not directed at "Jews", nor "Israel", nor "certain leaders among the Jews", nor anything else other than "the disciples". And then Peter, James, John, and Andrew are specifically named.
Setting aside for the moment your comments about the temple and the Sabbath...ask a very simple question:
If Jesus had returned within the lifetimes of Peter, James and John...after telling them directly they needed to have an expectation of entering the great tribulation...would they have been raptured pre-tribulationally as Hal Lindsey (et al) claims...or would they have been raptured post-tribulationally, as Jesus taught them? Who to believe"? Jesus or Hal?
And why would Jesus have been telling these guys to expect a post-trib rapture...when they were obviously believers? If PreTrib were actually correct...then Jesus was teaching them a falsehood. Makes no sense.
Another thing about your claim that Jesus is only speaking to "Israel":
Yes, the "great tribulation" certainly begins in Jerusalem and surrounding areas...but the warnings apply to ALL believers anywhere on earth at the time. How would it not, pray tell?
Which Bible student worth his salt doesn't know that the "great tribulation" quickly spreads to all the world? A world which, by the middle point of the 7 years, (according to PreTrib doctrine) is loaded to the gills with a fresh new batch of innumerable gentile saints all across the globe.
It is utterly inexplicable, by the way, how these gentile believers re-emerged so quickly after an alleged pre-trib rapture just 3 1/2 years earlier...but at least PreTrib and Post-trib both agree: There are innumerable gentile saints all over the world at this time.
So...you would still claim the Olivet Discourse doesn't apply to gentile believers?? Why would you claim that? Yes, Jesus was clearly describing Ground Zero. Does that mean that the gentile believers on earth at that time have nothing to look out for? Nonsense. It's just a matter of common sense that the Olivet Discourse applies to all believers.
Rev. 12:17 clearly indicates that when the Devil realizes he cannot lay hands on the righteous remnant of Israel, he then turns his attention to Jesus-following gentiles: "The dragon went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."
The Olivet Discourse applies to ALL believers on the earth at that time, regardless that Jerusalem is 'Ground Zero'.
I would argue, you have no biblically-based authority by which to alter the text...in saying Jesus was speaking to "Israel".
The Olivet Discourse text states "the disciples came to Jesus, asking Him...". The Olivet Discourse is not directed at "Jews", nor "Israel", nor "certain leaders among the Jews", nor anything else other than "the disciples". And then Peter, James, John, and Andrew are specifically named.
Setting aside for the moment your comments about the temple and the Sabbath...ask a very simple question:
If Jesus had returned within the lifetimes of Peter, James and John...after telling them directly they needed to have an expectation of entering the great tribulation...would they have been raptured pre-tribulationally as Hal Lindsey (et al) claims...or would they have been raptured post-tribulationally, as Jesus taught them? Who to believe"? Jesus or Hal?
And why would Jesus have been telling these guys to expect a post-trib rapture...when they were obviously believers? If PreTrib were actually correct...then Jesus was teaching them a falsehood. Makes no sense.
Another thing about your claim that Jesus is only speaking to "Israel":
Yes, the "great tribulation" certainly begins in Jerusalem and surrounding areas...but the warnings apply to ALL believers anywhere on earth at the time. How would it not, pray tell?
Which Bible student worth his salt doesn't know that the "great tribulation" quickly spreads to all the world? A world which, by the middle point of the 7 years, (according to PreTrib doctrine) is loaded to the gills with a fresh new batch of innumerable gentile saints all across the globe.
It is utterly inexplicable, by the way, how these gentile believers re-emerged so quickly after an alleged pre-trib rapture just 3 1/2 years earlier...but at least PreTrib and Post-trib both agree: There are innumerable gentile saints all over the world at this time.
So...you would still claim the Olivet Discourse doesn't apply to gentile believers?? Why would you claim that? Yes, Jesus was clearly describing Ground Zero. Does that mean that the gentile believers on earth at that time have nothing to look out for? Nonsense. It's just a matter of common sense that the Olivet Discourse applies to all believers.
Rev. 12:17 clearly indicates that when the Devil realizes he cannot lay hands on the righteous remnant of Israel, he then turns his attention to Jesus-following gentiles: "The dragon went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."
The Olivet Discourse applies to ALL believers on the earth at that time, regardless that Jerusalem is 'Ground Zero'.
In Matt.24:15 when Jesus says "“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[SUP]a[/SUP] spoken of through the prophet Daniel" He is quoting Dan.9:27 which says:
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven. In the middle of the ‘seven’[SUP]i[/SUP] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. ”
That seven years that the ruler, the antichrist establishes with Israel, is that last seven years of that seventy seven year period that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, with the abomination being set up in the middle:
"Seventy ‘sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finis transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
According to Dan.9:27, when Jesus mentions the abomination being set up in Matt.24:15, he is making reference to the middle of that seven year period, which again is regarding the fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem in Dan.9:24 with the last seven referred to in Dan.9:27. So, how can you say that this is about the church? It is about the nation Israel during that last seven years and is not referring to the church.
At the fulfillment of sixty nine of those seven year periods, the Messiah was cutoff/crucified. At that time the Lord paused that last seven years that were decreed upon Israel for the future and began building the church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear and gather the church from the earth. Shortly after that, the antichrist will establish that seven year agreement which will initiate that last seven years, bringing it to its fulfillment. God will be picking up where he left off with Israel and Jerusalem at the beginning of that seven years.
First of all, I don't get my understanding of scripture from Hal Lindsey, scofield, Darby or any other writer, but from scripture alonel And second, your error is 1) you are not understanding nor believing that the great tribulation is the wrath of God which will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And 2) that believers are not appointed to suffer those judgments and that because Jesus already suffered them on behalf of all believers, satisfying God's wrath. Also, the promises that Jesus made regarding our being gathered to him, is to the entire church, from beginning to end. Therefore, if you have Jesus returning during Peter, James and John's life time, then he would be leaving out the majority of the church from His promise.
In your attempt to make the church as being the group that is being referred to during the tribulation period, you ignore all of the other scriptures that demonstrate that the church is not on earth during the time of God's wrath.
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 Thes.1:10
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes.5:9
"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10
The wrath of God begins with the opening of that first seal rider on the white horse, which represents the antichrist. Therefore, the church must be removed prior to the opening of that first seal.
As long as you continue to apply the above to the church, your conclusions are going to be in error. Jesus is telling them this, because he knew that this information would be written and the appropriate people of that time would understand the events that he was warning them about. Who else is he going to tell, but the disciples, unbelievers?
You are correct in that, God is also going to be dealing with entire world, as depicted in Dan.2:31-45. The statue that God caused Nebuchadnezzar to dream about represents all human kingdoms/governments, with that ten-toed kingdom under the antichrist being the last. The Rock, which is representing Jesus, falls on the feet of the statue smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor and blown away by the wind without leaving a trace, which represents the end of human government. Then the Rock fills the entire earth, which represents Christ's millennial kingdom.
Those that will be here during the time of that last seven years will be those great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. Prior to that, John was told to write letters to the seven churches. Then here in Rev.7:9-17, the elder introduces a group in white robes which no man can count. The elder asks John who they are and he doesn't know. The very fact that the elder is introducing them, demonstrates that they are not the church, whom John was previously told to write to.
Another key thing to remember is that, the word Ekklesia translated as church, is used throughout chapters 1 thru the very end of the chapter 3. Within those same chapters, the word Hagios translated as saints is never used. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, the word hagios/saints is used, but the word ekklesia/church is never used. Coincidence or on purpose?
Revelation 1 thru 3 = Church only, but not saints
Revelation 4 onward = Saints only, but no church
Regarding the above, I believe that the saints that will be here after the church has been gathered, will be the following:
* Professing Christians who continued to willfully live according to the sinful nature
* Unbelievers who will have heard about salvation and God's coming wrath
* Those who will been deceived belonging to the false sects of Christianity, etc.
Those professing christian's who were not prepared (no extra oil) when the Lord comes to gather the church, will know that they screwed up and will know that they are now in the time of God's wrath and what they must prepare for. They will recognize the antichrist when he makes that seven year covenant, which I am sure will be on every news station. And they will begin to warn everyone else, including those who will have continued to reject Christ right up to the time the church is gathered. There will also be the 144,000 spreading the gospel, as well as the two witnesses and that angel of chapter 14 who will be preaching the everlasting gospel to all nations, tribes, people and languages.
Yes, I do believe that the Olivet discourse applies to gentile believers, just not to the church. The Gentile believers will be those saints that come to Christ after the church has been gathered.
The dragon goes off to make war and conquer those saints that will be here during the great tribulation introduced in Rev.7:9-17 and who are also mentioned in Dan.7:27 and Rev.13:6-8. And are also those who are resurrected in Rev.20:4-6 who will be killed for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark.
During that last seven years, God will fulfill that last seven years, completing the seventy sevens decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem and will also be dealing with the rest of the world regarding their rejection of Christ and their sins via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.