No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

[John146]

I didn't see any real reasoning from you...no hard feelings. Just an assertion on your part...and then some scriptures you placed there. There is only one "gospel" by the way. I wouldn't know where you've come up with a doctrine of a "Different Gospel".

And again, Jesus presented the facts of the 'end times' to Peter, James and John. At what point were they supposed to have adopted a view which CONTRADICTED Jesus' words to them?

In Matthew 24, Jesus was answering the questions when the end will come. He goes on to say when the gospel of the kingdom is preached to all nations, then the end will come. Paul said the gospel he preached has gone out to all nations and been preached unto the whole world for a witness. If it's the same gospel, why hasn't the end come?

 

[PlainWord]

You do realise I asked no question right? All of what I said are statements.If you want to believe the bride will go through the tribulation go ahead. I mean you believe in the osas doctrine as well so believe whatever you desire.

I wonder if the disciples went through some tribulation? Are they not part of the Bride? It was okay for them to suffer and be killed but not those of us living comfortably in the USA who go to church on Sundays then rush home to watch football. How dare we be expected to suffer for Christ...The Groom, of course, was brutalized and still bore the marks of His tribulation when He arose but I guess Christ wants a pristine Bride that looks like she has been sitting around folding clothes and not out in the mission field....Oops, maybe not, just saw this verse.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

 

[tanakh]

In Matthew 13 Jesus explains to the Disciples the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares. In verse 28 he says the field reoresents the world and the good seed stands for the Sons of the Kingdom. The Weeds are the Sons of the evil one.
These Children or Sons are IN the world but not OF the world'

The Servants ask whether the Weeds should be pulled up. They are told LET THEM BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST. Jesus goes on to say I will tell the Harvesters first collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned then
gather my Wheat and bring it into my barn.

In verse 30 we are told by him that the The harvest is the end of the age and the Harvesters are the Angels.
In verse 40 He says as the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire,so it will be at the end of the age.

If the Pre Trib Rapture were true with all the other teachings connected with Dispensationalism then this would be the
ideal occasion for Jesus to tell his Disciples about it. But there is no mention of it at all.

Virtually no one of any note taught this Doctrine until John Darby and Cyrus Scofield came on the scene in the 19th Century. Their teachings are confined mainly to the US where Scofield with his notes and the support of the Oxford University Press infiltrated and brainwashed US Seminaries and churches

 

[tanakh]

One claim Pre Tribbers have concerning the Wheat and Tares Parable is that Jesus was talking about the Wheat being Jews that are in the tribulation. There is nothing to say in the Parable that this is correct. It stems from the belief that there is a different plan for Israel than that of the Gentiles. In the Bible Israel is called Gods Wife and the Church his Bride. If these are not identical groups we are led with the concept of God having two wives. Is God Polygamous?. Salvation comes through the faith and belief in Christ whatever group you come from. The whole purpose of Israel was to bring Christ into the world and through him salvation to all who believe in him. That purpose is being fulfilled through Christ and his Church. Christ will reign until everything is put under his feet. He will then hand the Kingdom over to the Father.

 

[HisHolly]

Jesus also says He has sheep not of this fold which will be brought in... 2 in one not 2 separate.. great post!

One claim Pre Tribbers have concerning the Wheat and Tares Parable is that Jesus was talking about the Wheat being Jews that are in the tribulation. There is nothing to say in the Parable that this is correct. It stems from the belief that there is a different plan for Israel than that of the Gentiles. In the Bible Israel is called Gods Wife and the Church his Bride. If these are not identical groups we are led with the concept of God having two wives. Is God Polygamous?. Salvation comes through the faith and belief in Christ whatever group you come from. The whole purpose of Israel was to bring Christ into the world and through him salvation to all who believe in him. That purpose is being fulfilled through Christ and his Church.

 

[John146]

In the Bible Israel is called Gods Wife and the Church his Bride. If these are not identical groups we are led with the concept of God having two wives. Is God Polygamous?.

Is it not possible for God to have His own "wife" Israel and Christ to have His own "wife" the Church?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Is it not possible for God to have His own "wife" Israel and Christ to have His own "wife" the Church?

No.Yahweh of the OT is Jesus.

 

[Blain]

No.Yahweh of the OT is Jesus.

Yahweh is both Jesus and God old or new testament

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yahweh is both Jesus and God old or new testament

What I meant is when ppl see Yahweh in the OT, they think God the Father. However, if they carefully read who created all we see in Genesis 1 and then read John 1, Yahweh is Jesus.

 

[John146]

No.Yahweh of the OT is Jesus.

Before Jesus became the Son of God, He was the Word.

 

[Persuaded]

sorry I have to disagree with you.

Regardless of where the Tribulation is at, it is still God's Wrath.....He has to give the OK for it to happen.....Just like He did to Satan and Job.

So the tribulation that Christians are suffering in the Middle East at this time is God's wrath?
How do you justify a Holy, Righteous God approving the rape of Christian wives, daughters and the killing of Christian boys and men.
God said Christians would not suffer Wrath. He also said Christians would suffer tribulation.
Job suffered tribulation, not wrath.

 

[tanakh]

Before Jesus became the Son of God, He was the Word.

Yes He is called the Word of God. So is the Bible. Jesus claimed that the Scriptures were talking about him. The whole Bible is about Jesus not just the NT. The Prophets and Revelation cant be understood without understanding this because they are directly related to the OT through the Holy Spirit. The people and events in the OT are shadows and types of the Spiritual reality of Christ and the Kingdom.

 

[Persuaded]

In Matt.24:15 when Jesus says "[/I][/I][/I]“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[SUP]a[/SUP] spoken of through the prophet Daniel" He is quoting Dan.9:27 which says:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven. In the middle of the ‘seven’[SUP]i[/SUP] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. ”

That seven years that the ruler, the antichrist establishes with Israel, is that last seven years of that seventy seven year period that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, with the abomination being set up in the middle:

"Seventy ‘sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finis transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

According to Dan.9:27, when Jesus mentions the abomination being set up in Matt.24:15, he is making reference to the middle of that seven year period, which again is regarding the fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem in Dan.9:24 with the last seven referred to in Dan.9:27. So, how can you say that this is about the church? It is about the nation Israel during that last seven years and is not referring to the church.

At the fulfillment of sixty nine of those seven year periods, the Messiah was cutoff/crucified. At that time the Lord paused that last seven years that were decreed upon Israel for the future and began building the church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear and gather the church from the earth. Shortly after that, the antichrist will establish that seven year agreement which will initiate that last seven years, bringing it to its fulfillment. God will be picking up where he left off with Israel and Jerusalem at the beginning of that seven years.



[/I]First of all, I don't get my understanding of scripture from Hal Lindsey, scofield, Darby or any other writer, but from scripture alonel And second, your error is 1) you are not understanding nor believing that the great tribulation is the wrath of God which will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And 2) that believers are not appointed to suffer those judgments and that because Jesus already suffered them on behalf of all believers, satisfying God's wrath. Also, the promises that Jesus made regarding our being gathered to him, is to the entire church, from beginning to end. Therefore, if you have Jesus returning during Peter, James and John's life time, then he would be leaving out the majority of the church from His promise.

In your attempt to make the church as being the group that is being referred to during the tribulation period, you ignore all of the other scriptures that demonstrate that the church is not on earth during the time of God's wrath.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 Thes.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes.5:9

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10

The wrath of God begins with the opening of that first seal rider on the white horse, which represents the antichrist. Therefore, the church must be removed prior to the opening of that first seal.



As long as you continue to apply the above to the church, your conclusions are going to be in error. Jesus is telling them this, because he knew that this information would be written and the appropriate people of that time would understand the events that he was warning them about. Who else is he going to tell, but the disciples, unbelievers?



You are correct in that, God is also going to be dealing with entire world, as depicted in Dan.2:31-45. The statue that God caused Nebuchadnezzar to dream about represents all human kingdoms/governments, with that ten-toed kingdom under the antichrist being the last. The Rock, which is representing Jesus, falls on the feet of the statue smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor and blown away by the wind without leaving a trace, which represents the end of human government. Then the Rock fills the entire earth, which represents Christ's millennial kingdom.

Those that will be here during the time of that last seven years will be those great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. Prior to that, John was told to write letters to the seven churches. Then here in Rev.7:9-17, the elder introduces a group in white robes which no man can count. The elder asks John who they are and he doesn't know. The very fact that the elder is introducing them, demonstrates that they are not the church, whom John was previously told to write to.

Another key thing to remember is that, the word Ekklesia translated as church, is used throughout chapters 1 thru the very end of the chapter 3. Within those same chapters, the word Hagios translated as saints is never used. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, the word hagios/saints is used, but the word ekklesia/church is never used. Coincidence or on purpose?

Revelation 1 thru 3 = Church only, but not saints

Revelation 4 onward = Saints only, but no church



Regarding the above, I believe that the saints that will be here after the church has been gathered, will be the following:

* Professing Christians who continued to willfully live according to the sinful nature

* Unbelievers who will have heard about salvation and God's coming wrath

* Those who will been deceived belonging to the false sects of Christianity, etc.

Those professing christian's who were not prepared (no extra oil) when the Lord comes to gather the church, will know that they screwed up and will know that they are now in the time of God's wrath and what they must prepare for. They will recognize the antichrist when he makes that seven year covenant, which I am sure will be on every news station. And they will begin to warn everyone else, including those who will have continued to reject Christ right up to the time the church is gathered. There will also be the 144,000 spreading the gospel, as well as the two witnesses and that angel of chapter 14 who will be preaching the everlasting gospel to all nations, tribes, people and languages.



Yes, I do believe that the Olivet discourse applies to gentile believers, just not to the church. The Gentile believers will be those saints that come to Christ after the church has been gathered.



[/I]The dragon goes off to make war and conquer those saints that will be here during the great tribulation introduced in Rev.7:9-17 and who are also mentioned in Dan.7:27 and Rev.13:6-8. And are also those who are resurrected in Rev.20:4-6 who will be killed for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark.

During that last seven years, God will fulfill that last seven years, completing the seventy sevens decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem and will also be dealing with the rest of the world regarding their rejection of Christ and their sins via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

No, Jesus in not quoting Dan. 9:27, and your belief in that false teaching has lead to your not understanding the truth.
The man of sin in not mentioned nor even referred to in Dan 9.
The seven year peace treaty between the man of sin and Israel you continue to refer to is not taught in Scripture.
The pronoun "he" used two times in verse 27 refers to the Messiah the Prince that is introduced in verse 25 that ends the 69th week and begins the 70th week.
With out using Dan. 9:27 that you misunderstand, show me one verse of Scripture that teaches a 7 year peace treaty established between the man of sin and Israel.
You can not do that.

 

[Depleted]

Thanks! But what's the deal with this "no-such-thing-as-a-rapture" guy (2 posts up)? Just curious. I'm a newbie. Never heard of anyone within conservative church circles who flat out dismisses any and all rapture scenarios.

Instead of promoting a belief system you were taught, take it back to the Bible. Do a word study on rapture. AND it is in the Bible. The words "caught up" is rapture. It is used four times in the NT. Go do a word study and see what it says in context.

Then learn what it really means instead of the hogwash taught as "rapture" in various degrees today.

That's how modernized version of "rapture" leave the brain and we're back to facing the real God instead of the secret version you've been taught.

(As a newbie I fell for it too, but we're called to get past the milk and onto the meat. It's really not a "conservative" church concept. It's a liberal church concept.)

 

[dcontroversal]

The Devil has no wrath?? That's like saying the North Pole has no ice. The Devil has very pronounced 'anger issues', FYI.

Funny how scripture is chunked aside like trash......

New American Standard Bible
"For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

King James Bible
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[dcontroversal]

Here I have to disagree with you dc....... "The Dead in Christ shall rise. In other words, these people believed in Jesus or called upon his name when they died.

Please read the following:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

"13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Here it tells you those who believe "WE which are ALIVE and REMAIN"...........

It is only the believers that will go.

The biggest problem with the movies "left behind",,,,,,they are too mamby-pamby.... When 1/3 of the people of earth are going to die,,,,it is a big thing. Earthquakes that levels all walls and mountains.

If they showed it with those that 'now-- after the rapture' believe will have their heads cut off, and thousands dying, many more people would be asking us questions instead of scoffing at us.[/QUOTE\]

What is your point bro?....all I did was summarize that ALL the saved will be gone and there is no split rapture....

The dead IN Christ (the ones brought with him such as Moses, David, Abraham, Abel, N.T. saints EVERYONE who has died a believer and under that banner) WILL rise first from the dead with GLORIFIED bodies and then THOSE which are ALIVE and remain (believers still alive) will be CHANGED, TRANSLATED and GATHERED by the angels of God.....

 

[wwjd_kilden]

Does it really matter

-There are people currently living with earthquakes, volcanoes, tornadoes and whatnot
- There are people currently being arrested, maybe tortured and killed for their faith
- There are people currently worshipping false Gods and following distorted "Christian" gospels

whether it gets worse or not, we are to be ready. Always.

 

[Persuaded]

Does it really matter

-There are people currently living with earthquakes, volcanoes, tornadoes and whatnot
- There are people currently being arrested, maybe tortured and killed for their faith
- There are people currently worshipping false Gods and following distorted "Christian" gospels

whether it gets worse or not, we are to be ready. Always.

While I agree with most of your statement, most Christians in the western world are not suffering tribulation, just a little inconvenience.
But its coming. Yea, its gonna get much worse.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

Aye, but We don't have much of a choice either way do we, we have to stick around, whether Jesus returns tomorrow or in a million years, that shouldn't change how we live.

 

[notuptome]

Does it really matter

When Jesus returns in the clouds for His church those who are His will go up to be with Him. Those who aren't won't. After all who will say no the Lord. No Lord I want to stay here with the lost souls who are subject to condemnation.

I really wonder about the thinking of those who oppose the rapture of the church. Dying in an instant and being raised together with those who have already died. Sure beats torture or cancer or any number of other deaths I can think of. I don't know well I do know but I won't say.

For the cause of Christ
Roger