No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

[Ahwatukee]

Morning BladeRunner,

While I am not sure, I think you will be find through scripture a better case for the two witnesses being Moses and Elijah. This based upon their actions and use of extraterrestrial matter (for lack of a better word).

Elijah called down Fire from Heaven and stopped the rain, etc.

Moses called down the plaques from Heaven, etc.

Although I understand where you are coming from regarding Elijah and Moses, my guess is that it will Elijah and Enoch. And that because, Moses has already died once and has not yet been resurrected. Where neither Elijah nor Enoch have yet died, but both were taken. For Moses to be one of the witnesses, he would have to have been resurrected so that he could die again when the two witnesses are killed. On the other hand, Elijah and Enoch have never died and would both be killed for the first time as the two witnesses.

When Moses appeared with Elijah when Jesus was transfigured, I don't believe that he was in the flesh. In fact, Moses could not have already been resurrected and that because scripture states that Jesus is the first fruits of those who resurrect into those immortal and glorified bodies.

I'm not ruling Moses out, for anything is possible with God.

 

[John146]

Morning BladeRunner,



[/COLOR]Although I understand where you are coming from regarding Elijah and Moses, my guess is that it will Elijah and Enoch. And that because, Moses has already died once and has not yet been resurrected. Where neither Elijah nor Enoch have yet died, but both were taken. For Moses to be one of the witnesses, he would have to have been resurrected so that he could die again when the two witnesses are killed. On the other hand, Elijah and Enoch have never died and would both be killed for the first time as the two witnesses.

When Moses appeared with Elijah when Jesus was transfigured, I don't believe that he was in the flesh. In fact, Moses could not have already been resurrected and that because scripture states that Jesus is the first fruits of those who resurrect into those immortal and glorified bodies.

I'm not ruling Moses out, for anything is possible with God.

My thoughts towards that have been that Enoch is picture of a saint, part of the rapture, that never tasted death but was translated before God's wrath was poured out onto the earth(flood).

 

[Bladerunner]

Where is/are the passage(s) that foretell a third temple being built by man? There are passages which speak of the spiritual temple being built now. There is also a passage that states (it) will remain desolate until the wrath is poured out. But I am aware of no passage speaking of a third literal temple being built in Jerusalem. Please show me.

PlainWord,,,we have gone round and round these passages numerous times. It is my opinion that as long as you stay up in the clouds and the Spiritual world, I nor anyone else can say anything that will 'ring a bell' in you mind.

Having said that, you will find that in Isaiah 28. Particularly verses 14 and on.

If you will allow me to interpret the literal view of this passage.

In Rev. 11, God has his angels to measure the Temple but not the grounds outside the Temple Mount.(holy city).

In Rev. 6, The fourth seal is Death and Shoel (Hell)....Both riding the Pale Horse. This is mentioned in Isaiah 28:14

In Daniel 9:27...." And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

In ".....shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...." As is at this time, the sacrifice cannot be performed as there is no temple and no 'offerings' that can be made to God because of this. The temple must be rebuilt to enable these things.


Note: In Isaiah28: 15..... the "orthodox Jewish people" have made a covenant with the 'death and Hell' They are trying to hide and really think that if they rebuild the temple, have sacrifices and Oblations to God as seen in Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15-16... God will send down the Messiah (not Jesus) and He (the Messiah) will rid the world of the Antichrist (satan) and spare their lives. God, does not follow this line of thought. He tells them in later verses in Isaiah 28,,, this will not happen. In fact, He will re-enforce the wrath of Satan to the point of annihilation of these Jewish sects.

As far as you believing the "abomination of Desolation" happened in 70AD is null and void....... It could not have happened since during the battle (well documented in Historical documents), a fire was started in the temple. This was what caused the soldiers to tear apart the temple block by block (to get at the gold that melted)..

If the fire was that Hot to melt Gold and make it run down in between the blocks of the floors and walls,......

Will the 'Abomination of Desolation' in this case NOT AN IDOL (Antiochus IV Epiphanes), but rather the Antichrist (satan) will set in the mercy set and declare himself GOD happen?????/

This surely could not happen if the third temple was not rebuilt.

Now, knowing you, I would expect nothing less than you to say, that I have not proven my case that the Third Temple was rebuilt.

To my knowledge of the Bible, there is not DIRECT verses that tells us about "the rebuilding of the Third Temple". However, certain prophecies CANNOT HAPPEN if the Third Temple is not rebuilt.....Thus the WORD of GOD is Wrong here....right?



WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bladerunner]

Morning BladeRunner,



[/COLOR]Although I understand where you are coming from regarding Elijah and Moses, my guess is that it will Elijah and Enoch. And that because, Moses has already died once and has not yet been resurrected. Where neither Elijah nor Enoch have yet died, but both were taken. For Moses to be one of the witnesses, he would have to have been resurrected so that he could die again when the two witnesses are killed. On the other hand, Elijah and Enoch have never died and would both be killed for the first time as the two witnesses.

When Moses appeared with Elijah when Jesus was transfigured, I don't believe that he was in the flesh. In fact, Moses could not have already been resurrected and that because scripture states that Jesus is the first fruits of those who resurrect into those immortal and glorified bodies.

I'm not ruling Moses out, for anything is possible with God.

Good to talk to you again.... Good point but I do have a question......

Did not Jesus take resurrect all the souls that were in Sheol (Abraham's Bosom) right after he died. It is said that the Graves were opened in Jerusalem as well as other places and these people were seen throughout the city (s)

This also served another function, in that (Abraham's Bosom) does no longer exist and show His (Jesus')victory over death.

 

[PlainWord]

The case for the "great tribulation" of Mat 24, Mark 13 for having taken place circa AD 70 is pretty darn strong. I just read a very interesting piece on the ancient Jewish Christian Church which began at Pentecost. This church was literally located on Mount Zion which is the site of the Last Supper, David's Tomb and Pentecost. It would have been here that the early converts met to worship.

The early Christian scholar Eusebius wrote: “The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. This appears to coincide with the warning to flee when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. Not one Christian was lost according to Bible scholar Adam Clarke.

The destruction of the Temple and slaughter of 1.1 million Jews by the Roman armies was the fulfillment of God's wrath upon them for killing His Son. There is therefore no need for a "Rapture" to rescue the Church from the judgment which befell Jerusalem some 1,947 years ago. The Great Tribulation is OVER.

 

[AllenW]

Stupid? Can you read what Jesus said?

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

These are the three accounts of what Jesus said concerning the Tribulation. Did you notice nobody in Berlin, Paris, London, New York, New Delhi, Tokyo or anywhere else were told to flee? The tribulation that Jesus was talking about was very limited in scope and deals exclusively to Israel.

Again, the tribulation is NOT a world-wide event. Many believe it happened in AD 70 as Luke's account certainly fits AD 70. Others think it is a future attack upon Israel. It could be a dual prophesy. Regardless, it is crystal clear that it pertains to Israel and only Israel. Therefore there is no need to "rapture" the Church to avoid it. This whole idea of a pre-trib rapture is STUPID!!

That's what I thought I was replying to.
I guess I should have been more specific.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Good to talk to you again.... Good point but I do have a question......

Did not Jesus take resurrect all the souls that were in Sheol (Abraham's Bosom) right after he died. It is said that the Graves were opened in Jerusalem as well as other places and these people were seen throughout the city (s)

This also served another function, in that (Abraham's Bosom) does no longer exist and show His (Jesus')victory over death.

I believe that those people who came out of the tomb's, though resurrected as per the meaning of the word, were not resurrected into those immortal and glorified bodies and died again, in the same way that Lazarus and Tabitha were resurrected. I believe that Jesus took the spirits/souls of those in Sheol/Hades with him to heaven and they are waiting for the resurrection, where they will be reunited with their immortal and glorified bodies.

Regarding the resurrection, Jesus is the first fruits, then we at his coming.

 

[MattTooFor]

Just wondering, what where they believers in? At this point, they had no clue about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for our sins(which Paul calls his gospel). What where they going around preaching in Matthew 10 and throughout?

Wait a minute - are you saying the "church" began one day after Jesus' resurrection? You're going to be in some hot water with your fellow dispensationalists!

No, the "called out ones", the "ekklesia" (incorrectly and strangely translated into the utterly unrelated English word "church" which has dubious occult origins, by the way) came into existence the very moment Jesus began 'calling out' people to follow. Your seeming suggestion (from looking at your question above) that His disciples were lost and headed for hell until after the resurrection...is preposterous.

They were believers in Jesus - "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish".

 

[John146]

Wait a minute - are you saying the "church" began one day after Jesus' resurrection? You're going to be in some hot water with your fellow dispensationalists!

No, the "called out ones", the "ekklesia" (incorrectly and strangely translated into the utterly unrelated English word "church" which has dubious occult origins, by the way) came into existence the very moment Jesus began 'calling out' people to follow. Your seeming suggestion (from looking at your question above) that His disciples were lost and headed for hell until after the resurrection...is preposterous.

They were believers in Jesus - "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish".

They were not lost, but the death, burial and resurrection was hid from them until after it happened. It wasn't until then did they understand what Christ was sent to do.

 

[Willie-T]

Good to talk to you again.... Good point but I do have a question......

Did not Jesus take resurrect all the souls that were in Sheol (Abraham's Bosom) right after he died. It is said that the Graves were opened in Jerusalem as well as other places and these people were seen throughout the city (s)

This also served another function, in that (Abraham's Bosom) does no longer exist and show His (Jesus')victory over death.

You do know, I hope, that you are attempting to 'prove' something by using a term (Abraham's bosom) that did not mean' Hell', in the first place, and was used only one single time in the entire Bible?

 

[PlainWord]

In Rev. 11, God has his angels to measure the Temple but not the grounds outside the Temple Mount.(holy city).

What causes you to think this is a future event before some alleged future great tribulation? The word, "tribulation(s)" is not found after Rev 7. The idea of a new temple to be built after the second temple is not taught anywhere in the Bible. Actually it was John who was told to "measure" so you have nothing right.

 

[MattTooFor]

They were not lost, but the death, burial and resurrection was hid from them until after it happened. It wasn't until then did they understand what Christ was sent to do.

I'm not necessarily disputing that. But it doesn't change the fact that Jesus told Peter, James and John to have an expectation of the Great Tribulation and a subsequent supernatural translation occurring AFTER the Great Tribulation.

 

[John146]

I'm not necessarily disputing that. But it doesn't change the fact that Jesus told Peter, James and John to have an expectation of the Great Tribulation and a subsequent supernatural translation occurring AFTER the Great Tribulation.

Yes, my point was, that the gospel as we know it, the death, burial and resurrection for sins, has gone out into the whole world and been preached to all nations but yet, the end has not come. Why? Because the gospel of the kingdom(Matthew 24:14) is not the same message as Paul's gospel. If it were, the end should have come.

 

[MattTooFor]

The case for the "great tribulation" of Mat 24, Mark 13 for having taken place circa AD 70 is pretty darn strong.

How are you missing the fact that this super-ultra-uber-spectacular event whereby "angels" supernaturally "gather the elect" by means of supernatural translation...and not just from the "four winds" (a reference to worldwide translation) but ALSO "from one end of the heavens (the universe) to the other".

 

[dcontroversal]

Good to talk to you again.... Good point but I do have a question......

Did not Jesus take resurrect all the souls that were in Sheol (Abraham's Bosom) right after he died. It is said that the Graves were opened in Jerusalem as well as other places and these people were seen throughout the city (s)

This also served another function, in that (Abraham's Bosom) does no longer exist and show His (Jesus')victory over death.

Does is say that Enoch was translated that he should not see death? And Elijah was taken up ALIVE in a chariot of fire?

 

[MattTooFor]

Yes, my point was, that the gospel as we know it...has gone out into the whole world and been preached to all nations but yet, the end has not come.

How in the world could you possibly know that? On what authority do you make that declaration? Come on.

So you have your doctrine of "Evangelism Has Been Completed" upon which you base yet another of your doctrines...the doctrine of "In Contradiction To Plain Scripture, There Are Two Gospels"...but both these doctrines are trumped by scripture...the Olivet Discourse in which Jesus tells the believers to have an expectation of great tribulation and a post-trib "gathering".

You have doctrines. I have a Bible passage. The Bible wins every time.

It's amazing that you directly contradict scripture...that there is only one gospel.

But this is how PreTribbers operate: They breezily proceed on the assumption that PreTrib exists, and then they go about imposing this doctrine on various point-blank scriptures. You have to start at step one -- open up the pages of scripture for us, and show us where this doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture is actually taught.

 

[John146]

How in the world could you possibly know that? On what authority do you make that declaration? Come on.

So you have your doctrine of "Evangelism Has Been Completed" upon which you base yet another of your doctrines...the doctrine of "In Contradiction To Plain Scripture, There Are Two Gospels"...but both these doctrines are trumped by scripture...the Olivet Discourse in which Jesus tells the believers to have an expectation of great tribulation and a post-trib "gathering".

You have doctrines. I have a Bible passage. The Bible wins every time.

It's amazing that you directly contradict scripture...that there is only one gospel.

But this is how PreTribbers operate: They breezily proceed on the assumption that PreTrib exists, and then they go about imposing this doctrine on various point-blank scriptures. You have to start at step one -- open up the pages of scripture for us, and show us where this doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture is actually taught.

How do I know the gospel has gone out? Scripture plainly tells us. Read it and believe it without explaining it away. I've posted several passages that state this truth but you fail to believe it. Is it not reasonable that the gospel went out 2,000 years ago and many of those people groups today don't have it anymore? Is it not reasonable that in 2,000 years from now, the United States may be a people group who has never heard the gospel or even seen a Bible? Absolutely!

Yes, there is only one gospel that saves, the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for our sins. Can you post Scripture where the disciples were going around preaching that gospel? The word "gospel" simply means good news. Don't equate every time you see the word gospel to the same thing. The word saved is used throughout the Bible, but we don't always equate it to eternal salvation. Please post Scripture proving the gospel of the kingdom is the same as the gospel of Christ.

 

[MattTooFor]

I've posted several passages that state this truth but you fail to believe it.

I'm not trying to track down all 3000 of your posts. You should've just given me a scripture you're referring to and we could've gone from there.

 

[John146]

I'm not trying to track down all 3000 of your posts. You should've just given me a scripture you're referring to and we could've gone from there.

I apologize, here they are.

Colossians 1:5-6 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

[MattTooFor]

Romans 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Colossians
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

[On edit: Whoops -- I see you got back to me!]

OK so...going against my better judgment, I tracked down one of your posts referring to this "second gospel" doctrine of yours. Frankly, I wasn't paying these comments any mind because this "second gospel' thing is (to me) so convoluted and there are so many off-the-wall theories being stated in this thread, one cannot keep up with it all.

For example, the Colossians 1 passage which you cite...you've gone 'hyper-literal'. Either Paul is being non-literal there, in some form or fashion...OR he's a liar. He never made it to Arizona, as one example...ergo, he's being non-literal. A tinge of poetic license. Again, he didn't make it to Hawaii. So he is NOT being literal. Don't know how you miss that.

What is happening here AGAIN is...you're bringing a pre-fab doctrine into a given text and then IMPOSING that doctrine on the text. You're thinking there HAS to be a second gospel because otherwise the Olivet Discourse is describing a PostTrib rapture but that can't be true because we have a Doctrine of PreTrib.

It's all wildly circular.