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If anyone can show any Scriptures which proves anything here to be incorrect, i welcome the attempt.
Please keep personal views, interpretations, and the such out of it. Just show me Scriptures which proves this diagram to be incorrect. Thanks
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
1). Seals 1 thru 6 should be included as taking place within the seven years, not outside of it. Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which are the beginning of God's wrath. You are basing your chart on the belief that the wrath of God takes place after the breaking of the 6th seal which says, "The great day of their wrath has come." The words "has come" are in the aorist tense, which would include the previous seals as being apart of God's wrath that were previously opened. As an example of this, please consider the following:
"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come."
The above is said at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. If you are going to claim that the announcement of wrath at the 6th seal must follow after, then you would have to the same thing here at the 7th trumpet, which would infer that the wrath of God begins after the 7th trumpet announcement. But the fact is that the words "your wrath has come" does not only refer to what is about to take place afterwards, but also what will have already taken place prior. It is the same with the announcement of wrath at the 6th seal, which would also include seals 1 - 4 as being apart of that wrath.
Regarding "Nations fight against Christ," that takes place at the end of the seven years, not in the middle. It is not until the pouring of the 6th bowl judgment that those three unclean spirits gather the nations to Armageddon, which would be at the very end of the seven year period. You have it marked in the middle.
Regarding the 144,000, they are not here for the entire seven years, but will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years. The male child is a collective name for the 144,000 and Rev.12:5 reveals that the male child will be caught up in the middle of the seven years.
Regarding "Christ returns with new city Jerusalem," the new Jerusalem does not come down from God until after the thousand years and after the great white throne judgment and after the new heaven and earth have been created. The new Jerusalem will never touch down on this present earth, but will come down after the new heaven and earth come into existence. That should be moved from the middle of your chart over to after the great white throne judgement.
"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come."
The above is said at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. If you are going to claim that the announcement of wrath at the 6th seal must follow after, then you would have to the same thing here at the 7th trumpet, which would infer that the wrath of God begins after the 7th trumpet announcement. But the fact is that the words "your wrath has come" does not only refer to what is about to take place afterwards, but also what will have already taken place prior. It is the same with the announcement of wrath at the 6th seal, which would also include seals 1 - 4 as being apart of that wrath.
Regarding "Nations fight against Christ," that takes place at the end of the seven years, not in the middle. It is not until the pouring of the 6th bowl judgment that those three unclean spirits gather the nations to Armageddon, which would be at the very end of the seven year period. You have it marked in the middle.
Regarding the 144,000, they are not here for the entire seven years, but will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years. The male child is a collective name for the 144,000 and Rev.12:5 reveals that the male child will be caught up in the middle of the seven years.
Regarding "Christ returns with new city Jerusalem," the new Jerusalem does not come down from God until after the thousand years and after the great white throne judgment and after the new heaven and earth have been created. The new Jerusalem will never touch down on this present earth, but will come down after the new heaven and earth come into existence. That should be moved from the middle of your chart over to after the great white throne judgement.
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A
Here are the cliff notes
Amillennialism is the teaching that there is no literal 1000-year reign of Christ as referenced in Revelation 20. It sees the 1000-year period spoken of in Revelation 20 as figurative. Instead, it teaches that we are in the millennium now, and that at the return of Christ (1 Thess. 4:16 - 5:2) there will be the final judgment and the heavens and the earth will then be destroyed and remade (2 Pet. 3:10).
https://carm.org/amillennialism-and-premillennialism
Amillennialism is the teaching that there is no literal 1000-year reign of Christ as referenced in Revelation 20. It sees the 1000-year period spoken of in Revelation 20 as figurative. Instead, it teaches that we are in the millennium now, and that at the return of Christ (1 Thess. 4:16 - 5:2) there will be the final judgment and the heavens and the earth will then be destroyed and remade (2 Pet. 3:10).
https://carm.org/amillennialism-and-premillennialism
There will be a literal reign of Christ on earth with His saints for 1000 years,and will be the time the kingdom is restored to Israel(Acts 1:6-11;Ezekiel 39:21-29),which all Gentile nations shall collapse,and Israel will be the only operating government in the millennial reign of Christ(Jeremiah 46:27-28).
God will give the world 7 years to have their way,and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,and bring Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.
God's purpose is to gather all nations,the heathen,to go against Israel to battle,which is the battle of Armageddon(Zechariah 14;Joel 3;Ezekiel 38,39;Revelation 16:12-16),which God will put them down,and the heathen that are left of the nations that fought against Israel will have to go up year after year to Jerusalem to worship the LORD and keep the feast of tabernacles(Zechariah 14:16;Ezekiel 39:1-8).
The millennial reign of Christ will be a time of peace,people will not war with people,animals and people will not fear each other,animals will not fear each other,and not fight with each other,but be plant eaters,and the animals will be so tame that a child can lead a crocodile in one hand,and a lion in the other,and the animal will have no desire to hurt that child(Isaiah 11).
Nobody will recognize and god,or religious figure,but the whole world will only acknowledge the LORD(Zechariah 14:9;Isaiah 11:9).
After the millennial reign the earth shall be burned up and all the works of it,for it has been tainted with sin,along with the heavens that have been tainted with sin as they melt with fervent heat.
The saints will go to the New Jerusalem,which Jesus told the saints,I go to prepare a place for you,that where I am at you may be also.
There will be a literal 1000 years of Jesus and His saints,in glorified bodies,ruling over some of the people that went against Israel at the battle of Armageddon,and the kingdom will be restored to Israel,and Jesus will rule over Jerusalem sitting on the throne of David.
For those that think we are in the millennium,that does not make sense,for why is Jesus ruling for 1000 years in a spiritual sense,when Jesus has been ruling ever since He ascended to heaven,which He said all power is given to Me in heaven and earth,and how is Jesus ruling when there is still wars,and chaos on earth,and disobedience on earth.
And when has there been 1000 years of peace,where there were no wars,and animals were plant eaters,and did not go against people,and the whole earth only acknowledged the LORD,and the world went to Jerusalem year after year to worship the LORD.
It can only be a literal reign of Christ on earth.
God will give the world 7 years to have their way,and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,and bring Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.
God's purpose is to gather all nations,the heathen,to go against Israel to battle,which is the battle of Armageddon(Zechariah 14;Joel 3;Ezekiel 38,39;Revelation 16:12-16),which God will put them down,and the heathen that are left of the nations that fought against Israel will have to go up year after year to Jerusalem to worship the LORD and keep the feast of tabernacles(Zechariah 14:16;Ezekiel 39:1-8).
The millennial reign of Christ will be a time of peace,people will not war with people,animals and people will not fear each other,animals will not fear each other,and not fight with each other,but be plant eaters,and the animals will be so tame that a child can lead a crocodile in one hand,and a lion in the other,and the animal will have no desire to hurt that child(Isaiah 11).
Nobody will recognize and god,or religious figure,but the whole world will only acknowledge the LORD(Zechariah 14:9;Isaiah 11:9).
After the millennial reign the earth shall be burned up and all the works of it,for it has been tainted with sin,along with the heavens that have been tainted with sin as they melt with fervent heat.
The saints will go to the New Jerusalem,which Jesus told the saints,I go to prepare a place for you,that where I am at you may be also.
There will be a literal 1000 years of Jesus and His saints,in glorified bodies,ruling over some of the people that went against Israel at the battle of Armageddon,and the kingdom will be restored to Israel,and Jesus will rule over Jerusalem sitting on the throne of David.
For those that think we are in the millennium,that does not make sense,for why is Jesus ruling for 1000 years in a spiritual sense,when Jesus has been ruling ever since He ascended to heaven,which He said all power is given to Me in heaven and earth,and how is Jesus ruling when there is still wars,and chaos on earth,and disobedience on earth.
And when has there been 1000 years of peace,where there were no wars,and animals were plant eaters,and did not go against people,and the whole earth only acknowledged the LORD,and the world went to Jerusalem year after year to worship the LORD.
It can only be a literal reign of Christ on earth.
iamsoandso,
Let's take this in small pieces:
First off, Revelation should NEVER be used to introduce new concepts of things not taught elsewhere especially if those new concepts are using literal interpretations of Revelation. Revelation is a very difficult book to understand and to interpret in a way that allows us to date events because John doesn't give many historical markers and he employs much complex figurative language.
I believe the 144K of Rev 7 are the Jewish Christians who were in Jerusalem prior to the invasion of Titus in 70 AD. The church in Jerusalem at the time was massive and it was indeed located on Mount Zion, 600 feet south of the Temple Mount complex. These 144K were the first to be redeemed, meaning the first to be saved. They fled when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies (the A of D). This was the trigger for their flight and is clearly taught in Mat, Mark and Luke. They fled over the mountains and to Pella. Not one Christian life was lost in this flight, according to tradition. One of the very last things Jesus told the disciples before He ascended was "I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Mat 28:20). Since John was in the spirit, he could see the Lamb with them on Mount Zion which is where they were.
Rev 7 compares and contrast two groups of Christians, the Jewish 144K and the Gentile great multitude. Rev 7 is not comparing them to those taking the mark per se, not in this passage. The people who take the mark come on the scene later.
Yes, these events are related. The "killing" of the two witnesses, or more accurately, their "resurrection" marks the end of the 2nd Woe (11:14). The end of the 5th trumpet marks the end of the first woe (9:12) and we are told that there are two more woes to come. Logic would suggest that the 2nd woe is the 6th trumpet and the 3rd woe is the 7th trumpet. Therefore the 2 witnesses are on the scene during the 6th trumpet and maybe sooner, but not after.
Let's take this in small pieces:
First off, Revelation should NEVER be used to introduce new concepts of things not taught elsewhere especially if those new concepts are using literal interpretations of Revelation. Revelation is a very difficult book to understand and to interpret in a way that allows us to date events because John doesn't give many historical markers and he employs much complex figurative language.
I believe the 144K of Rev 7 are the Jewish Christians who were in Jerusalem prior to the invasion of Titus in 70 AD. The church in Jerusalem at the time was massive and it was indeed located on Mount Zion, 600 feet south of the Temple Mount complex. These 144K were the first to be redeemed, meaning the first to be saved. They fled when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies (the A of D). This was the trigger for their flight and is clearly taught in Mat, Mark and Luke. They fled over the mountains and to Pella. Not one Christian life was lost in this flight, according to tradition. One of the very last things Jesus told the disciples before He ascended was "I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Mat 28:20). Since John was in the spirit, he could see the Lamb with them on Mount Zion which is where they were.
Rev 7 compares and contrast two groups of Christians, the Jewish 144K and the Gentile great multitude. Rev 7 is not comparing them to those taking the mark per se, not in this passage. The people who take the mark come on the scene later.
Yes, these events are related. The "killing" of the two witnesses, or more accurately, their "resurrection" marks the end of the 2nd Woe (11:14). The end of the 5th trumpet marks the end of the first woe (9:12) and we are told that there are two more woes to come. Logic would suggest that the 2nd woe is the 6th trumpet and the 3rd woe is the 7th trumpet. Therefore the 2 witnesses are on the scene during the 6th trumpet and maybe sooner, but not after.
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The people who think that believers be physically caught up with Christ and will disappear from the face of this earth during the tribulation and just sit back in heaven and watch hell unleashed on the unsaved clearly have been watching too many movies and not reading enough of their Bible. The twinkling of an eye, do people not understand how quick that is? The rapture may have already happened and those who were "asleep" may have missed it. Just saying. Jesus even said in His revelation that the times would be shortened for the elect sake. God's elect will be here on earth during the tribulation giving guidance to those who seek repentance.
Let's look at this issue: Clearly Jesus invokes Daniel. So, we must go to Daniel to see what he says. We look at Dan 11 and 12.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
We see three distinct, separate but related events being discussed:
1) The sanctuary of strength is polluted
2) The daily sacrifice is taken away
3) The Abomination that maketh desolate is set up
We are given one time marker for these three separate (yet related) events. 1,290 days from #2 to #3.
Josephus discusses at length the polluting of the sanctuary and relates it to fulfillment of prophesy of old (War IV.6.3).
Nay, the terror was so very great, that he who survived called them that were first dead happy, as being at rest already; as did those that were under torture in the prisons, declare, that, upon this comparison, those that lay unburied were the happiest. These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of men, and laughed at the laws of God; and for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers; yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning [the rewards of] virtue, and [punishments of] vice, which when these zealots violated, they occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their own country; for there was a certain ancient oracle of those men, that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a sedition should invade the Jews, and their own hand should pollute the temple of God. Now while these zealots did not [quite] disbelieve these predictions, they made themselves the instruments of their accomplishment.
Clearly the sanctuary was polluted by this point and certainly much earlier as the Zealots had taken it over, deposing the priests, setting up their own priests, murdering men in the sanctuary etc, long before John of Gischala joins them. The actual war with the Romans began in 66 AD and lasted until 70 AD with Masada falling in 73 or 74 AD.
John deceived Titus and fled Gischala around the end of 67 AD. We know Gamla fell to the Romans on 23 Tishri 67 AD and Gischala fell shortly after. John arrived in Jerusalem in the Winter, late 67, early 68. Again, by the time he gets there the sanctuary was already polluted. The polluting of the sanctuary and the ending of sacrifices happened together 1,290 days before the A of D is placed.
If we look again at these two passages from Luke 21 and Mat 24 we learn that the Abomination which maketh desolation is related to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
[SUP] 16 [/SUP]Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.
Therefore linking the Abomination of Desolation with the arrival of the Romans around Jerusalem is undeniable as the Romans caused the desolation of Jerusalem. The date for when the Temple was destroyed was Aug 10, 70 AD. The zealots now led by John continued to fight in the city for another month as the Romans would find and slaughter them. Those who lasted to day 1,335 are said to be "blessed" (Dan 12:12). I think they are blessed because they weren't killed. Instead they were kept alive as slaves and ordered to remove every stone of the city including the foundation of every building. Then Titus took them to Rome and had follow him in his victory parade.
We don't have an exact date for when the sanctuary was polluted but the time period of 66-70 AD certainly allows for it.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
We see three distinct, separate but related events being discussed:
1) The sanctuary of strength is polluted
2) The daily sacrifice is taken away
3) The Abomination that maketh desolate is set up
We are given one time marker for these three separate (yet related) events. 1,290 days from #2 to #3.
Josephus discusses at length the polluting of the sanctuary and relates it to fulfillment of prophesy of old (War IV.6.3).
Nay, the terror was so very great, that he who survived called them that were first dead happy, as being at rest already; as did those that were under torture in the prisons, declare, that, upon this comparison, those that lay unburied were the happiest. These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of men, and laughed at the laws of God; and for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers; yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning [the rewards of] virtue, and [punishments of] vice, which when these zealots violated, they occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their own country; for there was a certain ancient oracle of those men, that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a sedition should invade the Jews, and their own hand should pollute the temple of God. Now while these zealots did not [quite] disbelieve these predictions, they made themselves the instruments of their accomplishment.
Clearly the sanctuary was polluted by this point and certainly much earlier as the Zealots had taken it over, deposing the priests, setting up their own priests, murdering men in the sanctuary etc, long before John of Gischala joins them. The actual war with the Romans began in 66 AD and lasted until 70 AD with Masada falling in 73 or 74 AD.
John deceived Titus and fled Gischala around the end of 67 AD. We know Gamla fell to the Romans on 23 Tishri 67 AD and Gischala fell shortly after. John arrived in Jerusalem in the Winter, late 67, early 68. Again, by the time he gets there the sanctuary was already polluted. The polluting of the sanctuary and the ending of sacrifices happened together 1,290 days before the A of D is placed.
If we look again at these two passages from Luke 21 and Mat 24 we learn that the Abomination which maketh desolation is related to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
[SUP] 16 [/SUP]Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.Therefore linking the Abomination of Desolation with the arrival of the Romans around Jerusalem is undeniable as the Romans caused the desolation of Jerusalem. The date for when the Temple was destroyed was Aug 10, 70 AD. The zealots now led by John continued to fight in the city for another month as the Romans would find and slaughter them. Those who lasted to day 1,335 are said to be "blessed" (Dan 12:12). I think they are blessed because they weren't killed. Instead they were kept alive as slaves and ordered to remove every stone of the city including the foundation of every building. Then Titus took them to Rome and had follow him in his victory parade.
We don't have an exact date for when the sanctuary was polluted but the time period of 66-70 AD certainly allows for it.
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They fled all over. Some fled to Alexandria and some went west and north. However, the main body seemed to have gone to Pella. Here's a link to one story of this.
The Flight to Pella
The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers from the earth. (Eusebius Eccl. Hist. 3.5; Boyle 1955:86.)
I was just wondering if it is easy to look at a web page and believe something that someone wrote which seems correct. When you read it might change if someone actually researched the contents of it.
So the Ebionites and the Nazorean sects fled over to Pella as is recorded many times. Now is this the group of Christians that we refer to when referring to the apostles,Paul ect.?
the Ebionites and Nazorean taught that Jesus was the Christ but that he was not born of virgin birth and that his biological father and mother was Mary and Joseph. They denounced the teachings of the 12 and Paul as heretics. They used the Gospel of the Hebrews(not Hebrews from N.T.) to teach from instead of the new testament writings and taught that you must be circumcised and follow the law (which was their beef with Paul) this is who fled to Pella. Do you believe the same way as they did?
In my former post I mentioned Legio X Fretensis ,if you notice where they were in the summer of ad68 they were in the area of Qumran and had destroyed it but were then ordered to Jerusalem which is why these two sects were not also destroyed but in the 2nd and 3rd revolt what happened to these sects that fled to Pella?
So the Ebionites and the Nazorean sects fled over to Pella as is recorded many times. Now is this the group of Christians that we refer to when referring to the apostles,Paul ect.?
the Ebionites and Nazorean taught that Jesus was the Christ but that he was not born of virgin birth and that his biological father and mother was Mary and Joseph. They denounced the teachings of the 12 and Paul as heretics. They used the Gospel of the Hebrews(not Hebrews from N.T.) to teach from instead of the new testament writings and taught that you must be circumcised and follow the law (which was their beef with Paul) this is who fled to Pella. Do you believe the same way as they did?
In my former post I mentioned Legio X Fretensis ,if you notice where they were in the summer of ad68 they were in the area of Qumran and had destroyed it but were then ordered to Jerusalem which is why these two sects were not also destroyed but in the 2nd and 3rd revolt what happened to these sects that fled to Pella?
Let's look at this issue: Clearly Jesus invokes Daniel. So, we must go to Daniel to see what he says. We look at Dan 11 and 12.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
We see three distinct, separate but related events being discussed:
1) The sanctuary of strength is polluted
2) The daily sacrifice is taken away
3) The Abomination that maketh desolate is set up
We are given one time marker for these three separate (yet related) events. 1,290 days from #2 to #3.
Josephus discusses at length the polluting of the sanctuary and relates it to fulfillment of prophesy of old (War IV.6.3).
Nay, the terror was so very great, that he who survived called them that were first dead happy, as being at rest already; as did those that were under torture in the prisons, declare, that, upon this comparison, those that lay unburied were the happiest. These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of men, and laughed at the laws of God; and for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers; yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning [the rewards of] virtue, and [punishments of] vice, which when these zealots violated, they occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their own country; for there was a certain ancient oracle of those men, that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a sedition should invade the Jews, and their own hand should pollute the temple of God. Now while these zealots did not [quite] disbelieve these predictions, they made themselves the instruments of their accomplishment.
Clearly the sanctuary was polluted by this point and certainly much earlier as the Zealots had taken it over, deposing the priests, setting up their own priests, murdering men in the sanctuary etc, long before John of Gischala joins them. The actual war with the Romans began in 66 AD and lasted until 70 AD with Masada falling in 73 or 74 AD.
John deceived Titus and fled Gischala around the end of 67 AD. We know Gamla fell to the Romans on 23 Tishri 67 AD and Gischala fell shortly after. John arrived in Jerusalem in the Winter, late 67, early 68. Again, by the time he gets there the sanctuary was already polluted. The polluting of the sanctuary and the ending of sacrifices happened together 1,290 days before the A of D is placed.
If we look again at these two passages from Luke 21 and Mat 24 we learn that the Abomination which maketh desolation is related to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand[SUP] 16 [/SUP]Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.
Therefore linking the Abomination of Desolation with the arrival of the Romans around Jerusalem is undeniable as the Romans caused the desolation of Jerusalem. The date for when the Temple was destroyed was Aug 10, 70 AD. The zealots now led by John continued to fight in the city for another month as the Romans would find and slaughter them. Those who lasted to day 1,335 are said to be "blessed" (Dan 12:12). I think they are blessed because they weren't killed. Instead they were kept alive as slaves and ordered to remove every stone of the city including the foundation of every building. Then Titus took them to Rome and had follow him in his victory parade.
We don't have an exact date for when the sanctuary was polluted but the time period of 66-70 AD certainly allows for it.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
We see three distinct, separate but related events being discussed:
1) The sanctuary of strength is polluted
2) The daily sacrifice is taken away
3) The Abomination that maketh desolate is set up
We are given one time marker for these three separate (yet related) events. 1,290 days from #2 to #3.
Josephus discusses at length the polluting of the sanctuary and relates it to fulfillment of prophesy of old (War IV.6.3).
Nay, the terror was so very great, that he who survived called them that were first dead happy, as being at rest already; as did those that were under torture in the prisons, declare, that, upon this comparison, those that lay unburied were the happiest. These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of men, and laughed at the laws of God; and for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers; yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning [the rewards of] virtue, and [punishments of] vice, which when these zealots violated, they occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their own country; for there was a certain ancient oracle of those men, that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a sedition should invade the Jews, and their own hand should pollute the temple of God. Now while these zealots did not [quite] disbelieve these predictions, they made themselves the instruments of their accomplishment.
Clearly the sanctuary was polluted by this point and certainly much earlier as the Zealots had taken it over, deposing the priests, setting up their own priests, murdering men in the sanctuary etc, long before John of Gischala joins them. The actual war with the Romans began in 66 AD and lasted until 70 AD with Masada falling in 73 or 74 AD.
John deceived Titus and fled Gischala around the end of 67 AD. We know Gamla fell to the Romans on 23 Tishri 67 AD and Gischala fell shortly after. John arrived in Jerusalem in the Winter, late 67, early 68. Again, by the time he gets there the sanctuary was already polluted. The polluting of the sanctuary and the ending of sacrifices happened together 1,290 days before the A of D is placed.
If we look again at these two passages from Luke 21 and Mat 24 we learn that the Abomination which maketh desolation is related to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
[SUP] 16 [/SUP]Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.Therefore linking the Abomination of Desolation with the arrival of the Romans around Jerusalem is undeniable as the Romans caused the desolation of Jerusalem. The date for when the Temple was destroyed was Aug 10, 70 AD. The zealots now led by John continued to fight in the city for another month as the Romans would find and slaughter them. Those who lasted to day 1,335 are said to be "blessed" (Dan 12:12). I think they are blessed because they weren't killed. Instead they were kept alive as slaves and ordered to remove every stone of the city including the foundation of every building. Then Titus took them to Rome and had follow him in his victory parade.
We don't have an exact date for when the sanctuary was polluted but the time period of 66-70 AD certainly allows for it.
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The zealots clearly were the ones who polluted the sanctuary ending sacrifices. We aren't told who "set up" the Abomination of Desolation. We know that it happened in close proximity to the Romans surrounding the city. I'm not even sure "set up" is the right translation. The KJV has "and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate." Is the "they" also the zealots or are they the Romans? I'm still looking for the answer.
Oh.I was going by the information you gave in the article in your post #111 from the preterist archive where it gives reference to Pella but I agree with you in the statement "false Christians" are the ones mentioned in the quotes from your link and not the Christians of the Gospels,epistles ect. written by the 12@Paul. Well unless these are the Group/Groups spoken of in Acts 15 in the letter to the Gentiles,Galatians Johns epistles ect. But I agree these are not the same Christians we refer to as the Church who fled to Pella.
I was going by what you said in post #109 about Daniel 11,12 but I cannot see how you are linking them, the Zionist to Daniel 11:31 as polluting the temple and setting up the AoD if it is the people of the Vile person Daniel 11:21 who the scriptures say will do this.
John of Gischala nor the Zealots ruled the nations mentioned from Daniel 11:21 to Daniel 11:31. Those who are referred to as "them" in Daniel 11:30 and referred to as "they" in Daniel 11:31 are the people of the vile person of Daniel 11:21. In Daniel 11:24-27 the "He" is involved in a war that is not in his own Land and then he returns to his own Land in Daniel 11:28 and then at an appointed time he returns to war,Daniel 11:29-30 , and be involve in a battle or interwoven details with the ships of Chittim Daniel 11:30.
Now John of Gischaia nor the Zionist involved in the Jerusalem siege were in their land and then back,back and forth according to the information you gave as to their whereabouts in those days nor did they accomplish the things written in Daniel 11:36-45 that is "after" they pollute the temple in vrs.31 they rule over "many" vrs 39 and also the "glorious land" in vrs. 41 . He in verse 41 will "overthrow" many nations but Edom,Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon will escape being overthrown.
So John of Gischaia nor the Zealots it seems did these things and surly if they were killed in the siege in Jerusalem they did not overthrow anyone after they had died.
John of Gischala nor the Zealots ruled the nations mentioned from Daniel 11:21 to Daniel 11:31. Those who are referred to as "them" in Daniel 11:30 and referred to as "they" in Daniel 11:31 are the people of the vile person of Daniel 11:21. In Daniel 11:24-27 the "He" is involved in a war that is not in his own Land and then he returns to his own Land in Daniel 11:28 and then at an appointed time he returns to war,Daniel 11:29-30 , and be involve in a battle or interwoven details with the ships of Chittim Daniel 11:30.
Now John of Gischaia nor the Zionist involved in the Jerusalem siege were in their land and then back,back and forth according to the information you gave as to their whereabouts in those days nor did they accomplish the things written in Daniel 11:36-45 that is "after" they pollute the temple in vrs.31 they rule over "many" vrs 39 and also the "glorious land" in vrs. 41 . He in verse 41 will "overthrow" many nations but Edom,Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon will escape being overthrown.
So John of Gischaia nor the Zealots it seems did these things and surly if they were killed in the siege in Jerusalem they did not overthrow anyone after they had died.