Hi: I usually identify folks by the first four letters of their name, in this case I better decline. There are Pentecostal folks that walk in faith, I am not speaking of them. Generally speaking men are taller then woman, however there are plenty of women who are taller then plenty of men. I am saying that, generally speaking what I have found in the Pentecostal movement is so much fakery and dishonesty. I recently attended a small Pentecostal church where the Pastor had been sick and was expected to get out of the hospital in 14 days, well he go out in 13 and one half days and it brought the house down that a great miracle of God had occurred. This is typical Pentecostal behavior. I believe the Pentecostals act like that in order to convince themselves that God approves of what they do and therefore answers their prayers.
Why Don’t We See Miracles Like the Apostles Did?
- Thread starter Awakened
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
True, Also it is a Scriptural Truth, that those who draw close to God are they that God will draw close to.
But as long as a person chooses to obey God's enemy and choose to commit sin, which they know full well is sinful yet does it anyways, is NOT drawing close to God but rather the other way. It is no wonder to me, many miracles are not being performed today.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
But as long as a person chooses to obey God's enemy and choose to commit sin, which they know full well is sinful yet does it anyways, is NOT drawing close to God but rather the other way. It is no wonder to me, many miracles are not being performed today.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Similar here. Dreams and visions are clear, as if you are actually there. i was about to perform CPR on a man who had fallen from a great height, blood was pooling from his head. He was not breathing nor was there a heart beat. So when i was about to perform CPR. God spoke to me and said "Give God the credit". So then i put my hand over his heart and prayed out loud for Jesus to bring this man back to life, and it was so.
Those who draw close to God are they that God will draw close to. Those who choose to obey His enemy, are going completely the opposite direction of God.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Those who draw close to God are they that God will draw close to. Those who choose to obey His enemy, are going completely the opposite direction of God.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
I had a similar experience; as a firefighter/emt we had been doing CPR on a patient but to no effect and the medics decided to call it off. I felt the Spirit move, so I laid my hand on his chest and softly spoke in Jesus Name be healed. His heartbeat came back. Only one person there actually heard what I said, he came to me afterward and simply said isn't God amazing.
Yep He sure is!
Yep He sure is!
Thank you Dave and Ricky, I really appreciate your posts, this is normal Christianity, relationship, not the outward form we were warned of. This week I have been prompted to set up a function at the church tomorrow, after starting in this direction in obedience He has unveiled several more facets of this project as it develops, He is certainly looking for individuals who will seek His voice and be His hands and feet.
Bless you brothers.
Bless you brothers.
M
I'm not trying to tell God what to do. I am simply saying...these gifts should be manifesting just as frequently as they did in those early days. Apparently, the "gift of prophecy" was a fairly common (but maybe not THE most common) gift.
If this gift still exists, you Charismatics and Pentecostals should be blessing each other's socks off here at Christian Chat! It ain't happenin'.
If this gift still exists, you Charismatics and Pentecostals should be blessing each other's socks off here at Christian Chat! It ain't happenin'.
M
Who I "hang around with"?? I've been from one end of the so-called "church world" to the other. We can also view a very wide sampling of the top Pentecostal and Charismatic churches on TV, seven days a week. There is zip/zilch evidence of Jesus-style miracles where someone is healed from life-long stone-blindness or lifelong paralysis with the instant healing touch of someone who has the "gift of healing". Ain't happenin'.
No "prophesying". Just simple common sense observation.
The people who were beneficiaries of the spectacular miracles in those early days...had NO faith. They had ZERO faith. They didn't even know Christianity existed...until the moment they were struck dumb by a confirming miracle of "prophecy" or a "tongue" spoken miraculously in their own language, etc.
No "prophesying". Just simple common sense observation.
The people who were beneficiaries of the spectacular miracles in those early days...had NO faith. They had ZERO faith. They didn't even know Christianity existed...until the moment they were struck dumb by a confirming miracle of "prophecy" or a "tongue" spoken miraculously in their own language, etc.
Nothing in the Bible that says God won't do signs and wonders? Or nothing that supports the idea that we should seek after a sign before a person can believe him who has no form. or other wise they have no assurance they have the Holy Spirit?
I would think we would get under the authority of His law and believe what it says.Why make the law below to no effect.
1Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
No such thing as a sign gift. Signs are for those who rebel. Faith that comes from hearing God (prophecy) is for those who believe to the salvation of their souls. (it give them assurance they have the Holy Spirit.)
Why seek after other gods through a sign and a wonder in order to have assurance a person has the Spirit of Christ? There is no one commandment that would give us that idea. Everything opposes it.
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee. Deu 13:1
Foolishness which you said of myself is in regard to those who say walk by sight... do a trick, show me a miracle and then I will believe...why walk by faith (the unseen) This has to do with no God working in a person’s heart. Christ said it is an evil generation that seeks after signs and wonders before a person will have the confidence they do have God in their heart. No such thing as sign gift. It only shows a person has no assurance in one’s heart.(no faith)
Mat 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
Christian faith comes by hearing God. Not by imaginations of one’s heart after the lust of the eye.. God is no longer bringing any new revelation to confirm miracles.
Not one miracle was performed that was not used as a parable in respect to some aspect of the gospel program. Christ is no circus seal, do a trick, and I will believe... is for those who have no assurance of Christ in their heart.
Why would I choose the witness of men over the witness of God word? When I first believed according to his revealed word ,the gospel of my salvation I was given all the confidence needed, called walking by faith.
Signs are for those who believe not (no faith) those who rebel, prophecy for those who do have assurance they do have the Holy Spirit. .
Signs a for those who rebel they have no assurance of salvation..
Mat 26:48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
To seek for a sign before I would believe would be to follow after the apostate Jews they had no assurance of their salvation.
Signs are for those who rebel. Prophecy for those who believe making that belief that comes from hearing God the confidence they need to know they have the Holy Spirit.
Sign are for those who rebel.
1Sa 2:34 And this shall be a sign unto thee, that shall come upon thy two sons, on Hophni and Phinehas; in one day they shall die both of them.
A real concern here is that when Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God, and His opponents said He did it by Beelzebub, he told them that whoever spoke a word against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come. So you should be extremely careful with your comments and stop being so reckless with spiritual things.
Speaking against the Holy Spirit by not have any assurance they have the Holy Spirit unless God performs some trick has nothing to do with Beelzebub. Speaking a word against the Holy Spirit has to do with requiring a sign before one believes. So you should be extremely careful with your comments and stop being so reckless with spiritual things, (not seen.)
Straightforward signs?
Without parables Christ the word of God spoke not hiding the spiritual meaning from those who must see a sign before they would believe. .
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:2Th 2:9
Why would you ignore the warning 2Th 2:9 and go above that which is written other than you have no assurance of salvation unless you see a sign? God sends a strong delusion to those who do make His faith without effect.
Signs are for those who believe not.... prophecy the one and only source of faith that gives us the real assurance we do have the Holy Spirit.
Luk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
1Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; in so much that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
The word is confirmed by signs not the signs confirm the word. That would be turning things upside down .It shows they have no assurance they have the Holy Spirit.
Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen ....(Not leading before a person can believe they have the Holy Spirit.)
There should be plenty of verses that say seek after a sign before a person can have assurance they have the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you can share a few that would help us understand that it is not a evil generation (natural man that does seek after them?
Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
I would think we would get under the authority of His law and believe what it says.Why make the law below to no effect.
1Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
No such thing as a sign gift. Signs are for those who rebel. Faith that comes from hearing God (prophecy) is for those who believe to the salvation of their souls. (it give them assurance they have the Holy Spirit.)
Why seek after other gods through a sign and a wonder in order to have assurance a person has the Spirit of Christ? There is no one commandment that would give us that idea. Everything opposes it.
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee. Deu 13:1
Foolishness which you said of myself is in regard to those who say walk by sight... do a trick, show me a miracle and then I will believe...why walk by faith (the unseen) This has to do with no God working in a person’s heart. Christ said it is an evil generation that seeks after signs and wonders before a person will have the confidence they do have God in their heart. No such thing as sign gift. It only shows a person has no assurance in one’s heart.(no faith)
Mat 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
Christian faith comes by hearing God. Not by imaginations of one’s heart after the lust of the eye.. God is no longer bringing any new revelation to confirm miracles.
Not one miracle was performed that was not used as a parable in respect to some aspect of the gospel program. Christ is no circus seal, do a trick, and I will believe... is for those who have no assurance of Christ in their heart.
Why would I choose the witness of men over the witness of God word? When I first believed according to his revealed word ,the gospel of my salvation I was given all the confidence needed, called walking by faith.
Signs are for those who believe not (no faith) those who rebel, prophecy for those who do have assurance they do have the Holy Spirit. .
Signs a for those who rebel they have no assurance of salvation..
Mat 26:48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
To seek for a sign before I would believe would be to follow after the apostate Jews they had no assurance of their salvation.
Signs are for those who rebel. Prophecy for those who believe making that belief that comes from hearing God the confidence they need to know they have the Holy Spirit.
Sign are for those who rebel.
1Sa 2:34 And this shall be a sign unto thee, that shall come upon thy two sons, on Hophni and Phinehas; in one day they shall die both of them.
A real concern here is that when Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God, and His opponents said He did it by Beelzebub, he told them that whoever spoke a word against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come. So you should be extremely careful with your comments and stop being so reckless with spiritual things.
Speaking against the Holy Spirit by not have any assurance they have the Holy Spirit unless God performs some trick has nothing to do with Beelzebub. Speaking a word against the Holy Spirit has to do with requiring a sign before one believes. So you should be extremely careful with your comments and stop being so reckless with spiritual things, (not seen.)
Straightforward signs?
Without parables Christ the word of God spoke not hiding the spiritual meaning from those who must see a sign before they would believe. .
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:2Th 2:9
Why would you ignore the warning 2Th 2:9 and go above that which is written other than you have no assurance of salvation unless you see a sign? God sends a strong delusion to those who do make His faith without effect.
Signs are for those who believe not.... prophecy the one and only source of faith that gives us the real assurance we do have the Holy Spirit.
Luk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
1Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; in so much that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
The word is confirmed by signs not the signs confirm the word. That would be turning things upside down .It shows they have no assurance they have the Holy Spirit.
Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen ....(Not leading before a person can believe they have the Holy Spirit.)
There should be plenty of verses that say seek after a sign before a person can have assurance they have the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you can share a few that would help us understand that it is not a evil generation (natural man that does seek after them?
Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
Last edited:
I'd be curious to know what he said. If he was thrilled to be out of the hospital and talked about how great it was that God healed him, and bragged on God about it, and made much of it, is that anything to judge him over? Did he actually lie? Did he said the doctors gave him six weeks to live when he just had a minor flu bog?
It is good to be very thankful and praise God even if he heals us from the flu after 10 days. There is nothing wrong with that. I've had sicknesses that ran their normal course. I've had dengue fever twice. I think one of those just might have been the hemmoragic kind based on what I've heard of the symptoms. If you ever get a choice between regular dengue and hemmoragic, don't take the hemmoragic. Anyway, I was finally healed up. My platelet level was in an acceptable range. I was able to get up and walk around without an IV. I was really thrilled, excited that God brought me back to health. If I were a pastor preaching a Sunday morning service after getting out of the hospital with that first, reall bad, case of dengue fever, I might have sounded as excited as if I'd seen someone raise the dead.Thirteen days in the hospital is a long time.
It is good to be very thankful and praise God even if he heals us from the flu after 10 days. There is nothing wrong with that. I've had sicknesses that ran their normal course. I've had dengue fever twice. I think one of those just might have been the hemmoragic kind based on what I've heard of the symptoms. If you ever get a choice between regular dengue and hemmoragic, don't take the hemmoragic. Anyway, I was finally healed up. My platelet level was in an acceptable range. I was able to get up and walk around without an IV. I was really thrilled, excited that God brought me back to health. If I were a pastor preaching a Sunday morning service after getting out of the hospital with that first, reall bad, case of dengue fever, I might have sounded as excited as if I'd seen someone raise the dead.Thirteen days in the hospital is a long time.
Straw man argument. I don't see any Oneness folks on here arguing their doctrine. I'm trying to recall the context.
Also, I was pointing out how foolish it was for you to say that someone who saw a limb grow back at a revival saw a lying sign and wonder and attribute it to Satan. If you don't believe God is giving revelation today, then you have no basis to claim that you knew that was a lying sign and wonder. It is foolish to attribute such things to Satan, because when Jesus' opponents accused Him of casting out demons by Beelzebub when He was doing so by the Spirit of God, He warned them that blaspheming the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come.
Just consider the situation. Biblically, you have no basis for concluding that an arm growing out at a revival must be a work of Satan. Even if you do not believe in certain spiritual gifts today, there are plenty of promises in the Bible about God answering prayer. If the Spirit of God were at work in growing out a man's arm, and you attributed the work to Satan, how is that different from those who attributed a work Christ did by the Spirit to Beelzebub?
Do you think it is not forgivable to attribute a work of the Holy Spirit to Beelzebub, but forgivable to attribute a work to Satan? Who do you think Beelzebub is, anyway? In one Gospel. those Christ warned had attributed His work to an unclean spirit.
It seems to me that one of the dangers of cessationist beliefs combined with combined with putting more weight on one's arrogant confidence in one's own opinions than on the fear of God, is that it can lead to blasphemy.
I am not an unbeliever, so that prophecy about not hearing God when they hear speaking in tongues is not fulfilled in me. This verse does not contradict the other teaching of scripture about speaking in tongues. This verse does not contradict the teaching in I Corinthians 12 that lists speaking in tongues among spiritual gifts given to believers 'for the common good.'
This verse does not contradict the teaching earlier in the passage that he who speaks in tongues edifies himself. It does not contradict the teaching that he who blesses in tongues gives thanks well. It does not contradict the teaching of the passage that if what is spoken in tongues is interpreted, it edifies the congregation.
The verse you quote does not say that signs are only for unbelievers. You seem to be imagining that when you read the verse, based on previous comments. But it is not in the verse.
It is as if someone quoted the verse and said, "See. We are not allowed to eat chocolate." as if the verse proved there case.
I'm certainly not going to do that. But your question is, again, very confused. Why would the type of false prophet who says to follow other gods want to give assurance that someone has the Spirit of Christ? That makes no sense at all? Why would Baal worshippers say anything at all about the 'Spirit of Christ'?
I see here that you are not consistent with your own philosophy. You object to people who believe first, and as a result things happen that they and others can see. You seem to be attributing to them false motivations, that they will only believe if they see a miracle first. And you seem to think that if someone believes God does miracles, he must be motivated by some bad or questionable desire, to see a miracle as proof of his salvation, or to do a miracle as a work to earn his salvation, or that he is wanting to do a miracle or see a miracle to prove that he has the Spirit of Christ.
Now you are saying if you see a miracle you will believe. That is exactly the motivation you want to readily attribute to others, a motivation you have written against constantly.
I believe God does types of miracles I've never seen Him do, because He has revealed this in the Bible. I believe it without seeing it. You say if you see, you will believe. So who is walking by faith and who is walking by sight on this particular issue.
Christ said a wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign. He did not say that all who seek signs are wicked and adulterous.
A wicked and adulterous generation drink water. If you drink water, will that make you evil or adulterous?
If someone jumps out of an airplane at 10,000 feet without a parachute, he will die. George Washington is dead. Did he jump out of an airplane at 10,000 feet?
The apostles asked Jesus for the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. He did not refuse their request or call them wicked and adulterous. Instead, He gave them their answer.
The apostles prayed in Acts 4 for God to stretch out His hand to heal and to do signs and wonders for the sake of Jesus. God answered their prayer.
Who is using the term 'sign gift' in this discussion? Oh yeah. That's right. It's you. Why do you keep on with the straw man arguments. I suggest you look up 'straw man' in the discussion. Btw, I don't know what you mean by 'sign gift.' You seem to have your own understanding of a lot of things.
If I wrote a paragraph in response to your post about how Christians were allowed to eat chocolate, that would also be a straw man.
What is 'it'? A sign gift? If you don't believe sign gifts exist, how can a sign gift show a person has no assurance in one's heart?
When Christ was doing miracles, faith came in response to hearing the word. When the apostles did miracles, faith came in response to hearing the word of God. Some people paid close attention after they saw miracles, like the Samaritans Philip preached to. There were those who heard the word and believed after the saw a miracle, like Sergius Paulus. But they all heard the word before they believed the word.
If that's supposed to be an argument that the Spirit does not manifest in certain individuals through the working of miracles like the Bible teaches, then that's a rather lame argument.
Christ performed numerous miracles and healings, and that should not be compared to a circus seal.
Our brethren, like those mentioned in the New Testament in the first century, who came to Christ after seeing miracles, had genuine faith, even if they came to faith after seeing miracles. It is wrong to those early saints as having no faith in their heart because Christ did miracles.
You can go on making up pronouncements that aren't Biblical, quoting verses and drawing conclusions not supported by the verses if you want to, but it is nto edifying.
Why would I choose the witness of men over the witness of God word? When I first believed according to his revealed word ,the gospel of my salvation I was given all the confidence needed, called walking by faith.
You just make junk up. Jesus gave the apostles a sign. He said and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. They'd asked him for the sing of His coming. Where do you get off judging the apostles as being rebels with no assurance of salvation?
What about Abraham, who received the sign of circumcision. I pointed this out to you earlier, yet you continue to post things like this. Why do you do this?
There are certain signs that were given to unbelievers.
There are different kinds of signs. This was a sign from Judas.
I hope all our posters on this forum don't drive around you near any four-way intersections. If all signs are bad, you would probably avoid those stop signs, too.
If you take verses about signs being given to unbelievers, and ignore the verses about signs given to men of faith, and conclude signs are only for unbelievers, that is WRONGLY dividing the word of truth. You don't have the authority to make up new doctrine.
Jesus is right and you are wrong. Read Matthew 12. Asking for a sign before one believes is not a good thing, but it is not the unforgivable sin. Thomas said he wouldn't believe unless he put his fingers in the prints in Jesus' hands, and put his hand in his side. Jesus appeared and told him to do that. He said, "and be not faithless, but believing." Jesus accepted him. In John 17, Jesus said of his disciples that none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. Only Judas was lost. So Thomas did not commit the unpardonable sin and you are wrong.....again. You need to stop making this stuff up.
Paul didn't believe until he had a supernatural experience with Christ. He was blinded. There was a supernatural voice, a light from heaven. God saved Him, too.
God was merciful to Paul and revealed many things to him, even though he was an unbeliever until he had that supernatural experience on the road to Damascus.
You need to quit making stuff up.
I am not ignoring this warning about the man of sin. The Bible also teaches that the Holy Spirit gives the gift of the working of miracles and gifts of healing to individuals as he wills.
Concluding that someone... who you don't know... whose arm allegedly grew out at a crusade, must have done so because the man of sin has appeared and made his arm grow... is not a reasonable conclusion. If someone's arm grows out, that is not proof the man of sin did it. You aren't making sense.
And you need to stop with the foolish allegations like the one in the quote above. Paul believed the Spirit gave individuals gifts like the working of miracles and gifts of healing. That doesn't mean he had no assurance of salvation after he became a Christian.
And then he healed someone, and the one who witnessed it believed. You are arguing against your own case with this verse.
That makes no sense. One is in the active voice. The other is passive, but the meaning is the same.
That would be turning things upside down .It shows they have no assurance they have the Holy Spirit.
I am not arguing that someone has to see a sign to have assurance that he has the Holy Ghost. You are arguing for a straw man again. I am pointing out that a lot of the pronouncements you make contradict verses in the Bible.
How many times have I pointed out that the apostles asked Jesus for the sign of His coming in Matthew 24, and that he even called one thing a 'sign'? And (since you don't differentiate at all between types of signs apparently), I pointed out that Abraham, already justified by faith, received the 'sign' of circumcision.
That's enough to disprove a lot of the nonsense you keep repeating.
The apostles to whom Jesus said 'ye are clean' asked Jesus for a sign, and He gave them a lengthy response, even specifically calling one thing He mentioned a sign. The apostles also asked God to do signs and wonders, and He answered their prayer.
So a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. Clean apostles sought a sign. The apostles prayed for God to do signs. These were probably different kinds of signs, but they were still signs.
Also, I was pointing out how foolish it was for you to say that someone who saw a limb grow back at a revival saw a lying sign and wonder and attribute it to Satan. If you don't believe God is giving revelation today, then you have no basis to claim that you knew that was a lying sign and wonder. It is foolish to attribute such things to Satan, because when Jesus' opponents accused Him of casting out demons by Beelzebub when He was doing so by the Spirit of God, He warned them that blaspheming the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come.
Just consider the situation. Biblically, you have no basis for concluding that an arm growing out at a revival must be a work of Satan. Even if you do not believe in certain spiritual gifts today, there are plenty of promises in the Bible about God answering prayer. If the Spirit of God were at work in growing out a man's arm, and you attributed the work to Satan, how is that different from those who attributed a work Christ did by the Spirit to Beelzebub?
Do you think it is not forgivable to attribute a work of the Holy Spirit to Beelzebub, but forgivable to attribute a work to Satan? Who do you think Beelzebub is, anyway? In one Gospel. those Christ warned had attributed His work to an unclean spirit.
It seems to me that one of the dangers of cessationist beliefs combined with combined with putting more weight on one's arrogant confidence in one's own opinions than on the fear of God, is that it can lead to blasphemy.
I am not an unbeliever, so that prophecy about not hearing God when they hear speaking in tongues is not fulfilled in me. This verse does not contradict the other teaching of scripture about speaking in tongues. This verse does not contradict the teaching in I Corinthians 12 that lists speaking in tongues among spiritual gifts given to believers 'for the common good.'
This verse does not contradict the teaching earlier in the passage that he who speaks in tongues edifies himself. It does not contradict the teaching that he who blesses in tongues gives thanks well. It does not contradict the teaching of the passage that if what is spoken in tongues is interpreted, it edifies the congregation.
The verse you quote does not say that signs are only for unbelievers. You seem to be imagining that when you read the verse, based on previous comments. But it is not in the verse.
It is as if someone quoted the verse and said, "See. We are not allowed to eat chocolate." as if the verse proved there case.
I'm certainly not going to do that. But your question is, again, very confused. Why would the type of false prophet who says to follow other gods want to give assurance that someone has the Spirit of Christ? That makes no sense at all? Why would Baal worshippers say anything at all about the 'Spirit of Christ'?
I see here that you are not consistent with your own philosophy. You object to people who believe first, and as a result things happen that they and others can see. You seem to be attributing to them false motivations, that they will only believe if they see a miracle first. And you seem to think that if someone believes God does miracles, he must be motivated by some bad or questionable desire, to see a miracle as proof of his salvation, or to do a miracle as a work to earn his salvation, or that he is wanting to do a miracle or see a miracle to prove that he has the Spirit of Christ.
Now you are saying if you see a miracle you will believe. That is exactly the motivation you want to readily attribute to others, a motivation you have written against constantly.
I believe God does types of miracles I've never seen Him do, because He has revealed this in the Bible. I believe it without seeing it. You say if you see, you will believe. So who is walking by faith and who is walking by sight on this particular issue.
Christ said a wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign. He did not say that all who seek signs are wicked and adulterous.
A wicked and adulterous generation drink water. If you drink water, will that make you evil or adulterous?
If someone jumps out of an airplane at 10,000 feet without a parachute, he will die. George Washington is dead. Did he jump out of an airplane at 10,000 feet?
The apostles asked Jesus for the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. He did not refuse their request or call them wicked and adulterous. Instead, He gave them their answer.
The apostles prayed in Acts 4 for God to stretch out His hand to heal and to do signs and wonders for the sake of Jesus. God answered their prayer.
Who is using the term 'sign gift' in this discussion? Oh yeah. That's right. It's you. Why do you keep on with the straw man arguments. I suggest you look up 'straw man' in the discussion. Btw, I don't know what you mean by 'sign gift.' You seem to have your own understanding of a lot of things.
If I wrote a paragraph in response to your post about how Christians were allowed to eat chocolate, that would also be a straw man.
What is 'it'? A sign gift? If you don't believe sign gifts exist, how can a sign gift show a person has no assurance in one's heart?
When Christ was doing miracles, faith came in response to hearing the word. When the apostles did miracles, faith came in response to hearing the word of God. Some people paid close attention after they saw miracles, like the Samaritans Philip preached to. There were those who heard the word and believed after the saw a miracle, like Sergius Paulus. But they all heard the word before they believed the word.
If that's supposed to be an argument that the Spirit does not manifest in certain individuals through the working of miracles like the Bible teaches, then that's a rather lame argument.
Christ performed numerous miracles and healings, and that should not be compared to a circus seal.
Our brethren, like those mentioned in the New Testament in the first century, who came to Christ after seeing miracles, had genuine faith, even if they came to faith after seeing miracles. It is wrong to those early saints as having no faith in their heart because Christ did miracles.
You can go on making up pronouncements that aren't Biblical, quoting verses and drawing conclusions not supported by the verses if you want to, but it is nto edifying.
Why would I choose the witness of men over the witness of God word? When I first believed according to his revealed word ,the gospel of my salvation I was given all the confidence needed, called walking by faith.
You just make junk up. Jesus gave the apostles a sign. He said and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. They'd asked him for the sing of His coming. Where do you get off judging the apostles as being rebels with no assurance of salvation?
What about Abraham, who received the sign of circumcision. I pointed this out to you earlier, yet you continue to post things like this. Why do you do this?
There are certain signs that were given to unbelievers.
There are different kinds of signs. This was a sign from Judas.
I hope all our posters on this forum don't drive around you near any four-way intersections. If all signs are bad, you would probably avoid those stop signs, too.
If you take verses about signs being given to unbelievers, and ignore the verses about signs given to men of faith, and conclude signs are only for unbelievers, that is WRONGLY dividing the word of truth. You don't have the authority to make up new doctrine.
Jesus is right and you are wrong. Read Matthew 12. Asking for a sign before one believes is not a good thing, but it is not the unforgivable sin. Thomas said he wouldn't believe unless he put his fingers in the prints in Jesus' hands, and put his hand in his side. Jesus appeared and told him to do that. He said, "and be not faithless, but believing." Jesus accepted him. In John 17, Jesus said of his disciples that none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. Only Judas was lost. So Thomas did not commit the unpardonable sin and you are wrong.....again. You need to stop making this stuff up.
Paul didn't believe until he had a supernatural experience with Christ. He was blinded. There was a supernatural voice, a light from heaven. God saved Him, too.
God was merciful to Paul and revealed many things to him, even though he was an unbeliever until he had that supernatural experience on the road to Damascus.
You need to quit making stuff up.
I am not ignoring this warning about the man of sin. The Bible also teaches that the Holy Spirit gives the gift of the working of miracles and gifts of healing to individuals as he wills.
Concluding that someone... who you don't know... whose arm allegedly grew out at a crusade, must have done so because the man of sin has appeared and made his arm grow... is not a reasonable conclusion. If someone's arm grows out, that is not proof the man of sin did it. You aren't making sense.
And you need to stop with the foolish allegations like the one in the quote above. Paul believed the Spirit gave individuals gifts like the working of miracles and gifts of healing. That doesn't mean he had no assurance of salvation after he became a Christian.
And then he healed someone, and the one who witnessed it believed. You are arguing against your own case with this verse.
That makes no sense. One is in the active voice. The other is passive, but the meaning is the same.
That would be turning things upside down .It shows they have no assurance they have the Holy Spirit.
I am not arguing that someone has to see a sign to have assurance that he has the Holy Ghost. You are arguing for a straw man again. I am pointing out that a lot of the pronouncements you make contradict verses in the Bible.
How many times have I pointed out that the apostles asked Jesus for the sign of His coming in Matthew 24, and that he even called one thing a 'sign'? And (since you don't differentiate at all between types of signs apparently), I pointed out that Abraham, already justified by faith, received the 'sign' of circumcision.
That's enough to disprove a lot of the nonsense you keep repeating.
The apostles to whom Jesus said 'ye are clean' asked Jesus for a sign, and He gave them a lengthy response, even specifically calling one thing He mentioned a sign. The apostles also asked God to do signs and wonders, and He answered their prayer.
So a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. Clean apostles sought a sign. The apostles prayed for God to do signs. These were probably different kinds of signs, but they were still signs.
Read the Gospels a bit more. This is definitely not true in every case. There were several people who did have faith who were healed or received a miracle in accordance with their faith. Jesus said 'according to your faith be it unto you' when He healed two blind men. He commended the Syrophoenecian woman's faith, whose daughter had an evil spirit, after he said it was not fitting to take the children's bread and to give it to the dogs. The centurion with a sick servant had faith. Jesus encouraged the man with a boy with a demon who the disciples could not cast out to believe. The man said, "Lord I believe. Help thou my unbelief." And don't forget the faith of the woman with the issue of blood.
Jesus also did not do many mighty miracles in Nazareth because of their unbelief, except to lay hands upon a few sick folk.
When Paul was preaching to a bunch of pagans in Lystra, he percieved that a lame man had the faith to be healed.
So was this 'faith healing'? Was Jesus a 'faith healer'? The emphasis on healing in regard to faith is very Biblical.
There are those in healing ministry who do not believe the one being healed has to have faith, and that they are to have faith for the people to be healed. In James 5, when the elders pray, they are the ones to be praying the prayer of faith.
It does make sense that Jesus was encouraging people to believe when He ministered healing to them. In evangelistic preaching, the preacher encourages those listening to believe. Encouraging people to believe is an appropriate thing for preachers of the Gospel to do.
Jesus also did not do many mighty miracles in Nazareth because of their unbelief, except to lay hands upon a few sick folk.
When Paul was preaching to a bunch of pagans in Lystra, he percieved that a lame man had the faith to be healed.
So was this 'faith healing'? Was Jesus a 'faith healer'? The emphasis on healing in regard to faith is very Biblical.
There are those in healing ministry who do not believe the one being healed has to have faith, and that they are to have faith for the people to be healed. In James 5, when the elders pray, they are the ones to be praying the prayer of faith.
It does make sense that Jesus was encouraging people to believe when He ministered healing to them. In evangelistic preaching, the preacher encourages those listening to believe. Encouraging people to believe is an appropriate thing for preachers of the Gospel to do.
Right now, Charlie Shamp, a young revivalist that my husband and I support, is at the border of Syria and Jordan preaching the gospel with signs and wonders. Miracles happen...in some ministries often, others less....but as the song goes? God is on the move! I agree with 88...the glory of the latter house will be greater than the former.
Whose faith? One given as a free gift not of our own selves?
Faith is a work, again whose faith did they have seeing it could never be of their own-selves. Was it imputed as the faith of Christ?
Yes according to the faith of Christ that works in us to both will and do his good pleasure. Attributing that work of faith to their own selves, makes the grace of God through the faith of God without effect.
Every miracle pointed to a certain as aspect of the gospel hidden as a parable.
Yes he did have the faith of Christ, the healing faith of God. The pagan who walks by sight accredited that work to Paul (blasphemy) they made the apostles into gods in the likeness of men. Unless they see a sign they will not commit their faith to Christ, the author and finisher .They have no other way to think they have the confidence they have the Holy Spirit.
Act 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
The results show they were walking by sight and not the faith of Christ that alone comes by hearing God..
Christ gave Paul the faith to perceive. The same mutual work of faith the lame man was given to walk. Paul cannot see into the heart of another. The whole work was of the faith of God working in men to both will and do his good pleasure .
Act 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
A sign of blasphemy .We are to have no gods before out living God. Making the apostles into gods does not change the commandment.
Faith is a work, again whose faith did they have seeing it could never be of their own-selves. Was it imputed as the faith of Christ?
Yes according to the faith of Christ that works in us to both will and do his good pleasure. Attributing that work of faith to their own selves, makes the grace of God through the faith of God without effect.
Every miracle pointed to a certain as aspect of the gospel hidden as a parable.
Yes he did have the faith of Christ, the healing faith of God. The pagan who walks by sight accredited that work to Paul (blasphemy) they made the apostles into gods in the likeness of men. Unless they see a sign they will not commit their faith to Christ, the author and finisher .They have no other way to think they have the confidence they have the Holy Spirit.
Act 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
The results show they were walking by sight and not the faith of Christ that alone comes by hearing God..
Christ gave Paul the faith to perceive. The same mutual work of faith the lame man was given to walk. Paul cannot see into the heart of another. The whole work was of the faith of God working in men to both will and do his good pleasure .
Act 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
A sign of blasphemy .We are to have no gods before out living God. Making the apostles into gods does not change the commandment.
Last edited:
yes a work of Christ faith the faith of God.
What if some do not believe (have faith) will it make the faith of God without effect as a work of God?
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if "some" did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; "as it is written", That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Rom 3:1
What if some do not believe (have faith) will it make the faith of God without effect as a work of God?
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if "some" did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; "as it is written", That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Rom 3:1
You are right God gives the gifts as He will. Also He is giving the faith. In Romans 12 we read that not all have the same proportion of faith. But the question is not that the Lord gives healing ore miracles today too. The point is that they are not in this let me say so: quantity quality as we read in acts. I suppose that all born again Christians have the same Holy Spirit, independant to which denomination they belong. I would then expect that he will work in the same kind in all believers and enable them for the ministries he has choosen them. So I would also expect that we would have plenty healings and miracles in all Christian churches and among the folks where we live. So that also in the medias we could read ore see witnesses from this mass on healings and miracles.
Now i am this year 30 years a believer and i got for around 20 years the only German Christian newspaper which reports from all Christian activities in Germany. I can't remember to read about manyhealings ore miracles. Also not in the other medias. If today happens what we can read in acts, i am shure to find them in the medias.
Again, yes healings and miracles today from God, but not in compare to the time of acts. Why? This miracles and healings are combined with the Gospel and to show the authority of God! His Goal is more to save the soul then the body. Would His goal be to heal the people and special his children, then we would not find sick children of God. Btw, all healed people in acts died later, and i suppose because of any desease! To heal people is not His goal, but save souls for eternity! The great commandment was to teach and not to heal. If the healings and miracles leading not to be open for the Gospel they are for nothing. And yes, God sometimes heals his children and sometimes not. According his will and this has nothing to do how great ore small someones faith is.
Now i am this year 30 years a believer and i got for around 20 years the only German Christian newspaper which reports from all Christian activities in Germany. I can't remember to read about manyhealings ore miracles. Also not in the other medias. If today happens what we can read in acts, i am shure to find them in the medias.
Again, yes healings and miracles today from God, but not in compare to the time of acts. Why? This miracles and healings are combined with the Gospel and to show the authority of God! His Goal is more to save the soul then the body. Would His goal be to heal the people and special his children, then we would not find sick children of God. Btw, all healed people in acts died later, and i suppose because of any desease! To heal people is not His goal, but save souls for eternity! The great commandment was to teach and not to heal. If the healings and miracles leading not to be open for the Gospel they are for nothing. And yes, God sometimes heals his children and sometimes not. According his will and this has nothing to do how great ore small someones faith is.