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Well aren't we all born innocent of sin, not just Mary?
Ezekiel 18:20
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Edit: As for saying she didn't sin her whole life, I mean I can understand where that sounds pretty fishy, I agree, but I don't see a problem saying she wasn't with sin before or during pregnancy and birth of Jesus.
Ezekiel 18:20
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Edit: As for saying she didn't sin her whole life, I mean I can understand where that sounds pretty fishy, I agree, but I don't see a problem saying she wasn't with sin before or during pregnancy and birth of Jesus.
Two separate doctrines are being mixed up.
Immaculate Conception - Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin. She lived a sinless life.
Virgin Birth - Mary giving birth to Jesus Christ without being sexually active with a man.
The best place to learn about a denomination is by consulting something written or approved by that denomination(click on the blue).
That Mary was sinless for life and that she gave birth to Jesus while still remaining a virgin are believed by RCs and Eastern Orthodox, although the EO doesn't have a doctrinal name for the Mary's sinless state.
Note that I am making statements in the definitions, not expressing my viewpoints/opinions on these matters.
Immaculate Conception - Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin. She lived a sinless life.
Virgin Birth - Mary giving birth to Jesus Christ without being sexually active with a man.
The best place to learn about a denomination is by consulting something written or approved by that denomination(click on the blue).
That Mary was sinless for life and that she gave birth to Jesus while still remaining a virgin are believed by RCs and Eastern Orthodox, although the EO doesn't have a doctrinal name for the Mary's sinless state.
Note that I am making statements in the definitions, not expressing my viewpoints/opinions on these matters.
I will check that link out, good looks, but gotta run for a lil bit.
Lol dogmas and doctrines, not my strong suit for sure. I think i'll just stick to reading the book for itself lol. Interesting stuff though, guess I was wrong about what I thought immaculate conception was this whole time lol, but hey learn something new every day.
Lol dogmas and doctrines, not my strong suit for sure. I think i'll just stick to reading the book for itself lol. Interesting stuff though, guess I was wrong about what I thought immaculate conception was this whole time lol, but hey learn something new every day.
No, man is not perfect, so we need a savior to cleanse our sins and make us perfect... If marry lived a perfect life like you suggest there would be no reason for Christ....
Secondly, in your theory, the only way that Christ was born sinless was due to Marry... This makes Marry the forbearer of Christ, and the savior of Man. In your theory, without marry there would be no Jesus...
Marry was just a person, that God found favor with, he could of used a whore if he wanted too... But he used marry for 1 to make a miracle, 2 for prophecy, and 3 because he found favor in her.
Secondly, in your theory, the only way that Christ was born sinless was due to Marry... This makes Marry the forbearer of Christ, and the savior of Man. In your theory, without marry there would be no Jesus...
Marry was just a person, that God found favor with, he could of used a whore if he wanted too... But he used marry for 1 to make a miracle, 2 for prophecy, and 3 because he found favor in her.
Rabbi J.C. Wumboperner said he believed it originated from Genesis 29:31
And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me. Gen 29:32
And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me. Gen 29:32
Well I agree no man is perfect excepting for Jesus. I'm not saying Mary lived a perfect sinless life all her life. I just don't think she sinned before or during conceiving and being pregnant with Jesus. I mean can anyone find a verse in the Bible from before and during her pregnancy that indicates her to be a sinner? I cannot.
Well no that's not my theory at all because Jesus would be born sinless regardless of whether Mary was a sinner or not at time of pregnancy just like all people are born sinless. Now all people, except Jesus, will and have sinned and make mistakes, that's moreso what I think.
As for no Jesus without Mary, I mean Jesus existed before Mary, so obviously Jesus existed even before earth and heaven existed, but then again Jesus might not have come at that time in the flesh without Mary. Obviously Mary was highly favored by God above all women. God obviously had this planned out before Mary was even the twinkle of an eye because he foretells the virgin birth by the prophet Isaiah.
As for the last part I agree to that pretty fully. In fact I'd even go so far as to say in an indirect sorta way God did use a whore if going by the genealogies in the Gospels Jesus is part of the line of David whose ancestor was Salmon whom married the whore Rahab and begot Boaz.
Well no that's not my theory at all because Jesus would be born sinless regardless of whether Mary was a sinner or not at time of pregnancy just like all people are born sinless. Now all people, except Jesus, will and have sinned and make mistakes, that's moreso what I think.
As for no Jesus without Mary, I mean Jesus existed before Mary, so obviously Jesus existed even before earth and heaven existed, but then again Jesus might not have come at that time in the flesh without Mary. Obviously Mary was highly favored by God above all women. God obviously had this planned out before Mary was even the twinkle of an eye because he foretells the virgin birth by the prophet Isaiah.
As for the last part I agree to that pretty fully. In fact I'd even go so far as to say in an indirect sorta way God did use a whore if going by the genealogies in the Gospels Jesus is part of the line of David whose ancestor was Salmon whom married the whore Rahab and begot Boaz.
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Can you find a quote that says Joespeh was a sinner before Christ?
All men are sinners, it is our nature.... All men have fallen short of the glory of God... This includes Marry....
You say without marry Jesus might not have come?
I love the quote when Christ eneters Jeruselum and everyone is crying out in praise... One of his disciples turns to him and says look at that!
Christ says, if they did not cry out then the rocks would cry out....
It was prophecy that Christ would enter jeruselum that very day... It was prophecy the type of welcome he would get... And if the people didn't react that way, then the rocks would cry out because Prophecy/God's word cannot be broken...
In order for Christ to have come that day he had to be born within a very small window... God found favor with marry because of Grace, nothing more... And if marry was not alive, then he would have used someone else, "the rocks would cry out".
You guys put way to much faith in Marry and think to highly of her... She was just a human... Nothing more...
You think without Marry Christ wouldn't have came... Blasphemous!!!!!!!!
God is not hindered by the works of men... God could have chosen a tree stump if he wanted too... The reason he chose a virgin is so no one can go around saying "I am baring God's son!"... That is the only reason that was prophecy...
James 5:17 Elijah was a man just like us....
Yet elijah did miracles and found great favor with God! But he was a mere man... Same with marry
All men are sinners, it is our nature.... All men have fallen short of the glory of God... This includes Marry....
You say without marry Jesus might not have come?
I love the quote when Christ eneters Jeruselum and everyone is crying out in praise... One of his disciples turns to him and says look at that!
Christ says, if they did not cry out then the rocks would cry out....
It was prophecy that Christ would enter jeruselum that very day... It was prophecy the type of welcome he would get... And if the people didn't react that way, then the rocks would cry out because Prophecy/God's word cannot be broken...
In order for Christ to have come that day he had to be born within a very small window... God found favor with marry because of Grace, nothing more... And if marry was not alive, then he would have used someone else, "the rocks would cry out".
You guys put way to much faith in Marry and think to highly of her... She was just a human... Nothing more...
You think without Marry Christ wouldn't have came... Blasphemous!!!!!!!!
God is not hindered by the works of men... God could have chosen a tree stump if he wanted too... The reason he chose a virgin is so no one can go around saying "I am baring God's son!"... That is the only reason that was prophecy...
James 5:17 Elijah was a man just like us....
Yet elijah did miracles and found great favor with God! But he was a mere man... Same with marry
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No I can't find a quote that says Joseph was a sinner before Jesus, and I don't think he was either. I think he was a just man and I do think the Bible says the same thing if I remember correctly. I think that could also be a factor in the coming of Jesus in the flesh at the time he came and to the family he came to also considering Joseph's line is made note of in the Gospels.
Right all men are sinners, excepting for Jesus. I never said they weren't. I never said Mary was sinless her whole life either, just that I don't think she was sinful before or during pregnancy with Jesus.
I say with Mary Jesus might not have come in the flesh at that particular time and place.
That is a good verse, and I agree and like this example you set forth about prophecy.
Lol I think another verse for this particular topic is also that Jesus told them God can raise children up for Abraham out of the stones.
Lol who is you guys? I am not a member of the Catholic Church, nor is my family. Heck until today and this very thread I thought the Immaculate Conception was the "Virgin Birth".
I'd recommend using great care before laying a charge of blasphemy on someone, and if it be at all possible to not even make the accusation against a person. I forgive you lightly because I am a forgiving person and because I also like you quite a bit, forgive my clement bias and failure to communicate fully in writing, but that is one accusation that ought not be taken lightly. I don't think you hate me enough to stone me to death, but consider it some wisdom and take it and use it for yourself.
I agree God is not hindered by anything we do, in fact man can do nothing to stop God. Man will constantly stumble on the Rock and be broken or the Rock will fall upon them and they will be grounded to dust. The Rock came crashing down from heaven and the Statue of Man was destroyed.
I like the thinking on the topic of "Why God Chose a Virgin to bear Jesus in the flesh" as a interesting question indeed. I like your reasoning and agree with it, but save for the fact I think there be more than one reason. One I like is this;
Isaiah 7
1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.[SUP]
2 [/SUP]And it was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim. And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then said the Lord unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Thus saith the Lord God, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Moreover the Lord spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]The Lord shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall hiss for the fly that is in the uttermost part of the rivers of Egypt, and for the bee that is in the land of Assyria.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]In the same day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired, namely, by them beyond the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet: and it shall also consume the beard.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, that a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, that every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall even be for briers and thorns.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]With arrows and with bows shall men come thither; because all the land shall become briers and thorns.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And on all hills that shall be digged with the mattock, there shall not come thither the fear of briers and thorns: but it shall be for the sending forth of oxen, and for the treading of lesser cattle.
Right all men are sinners, excepting for Jesus. I never said they weren't. I never said Mary was sinless her whole life either, just that I don't think she was sinful before or during pregnancy with Jesus.
I say with Mary Jesus might not have come in the flesh at that particular time and place.
That is a good verse, and I agree and like this example you set forth about prophecy.
Lol I think another verse for this particular topic is also that Jesus told them God can raise children up for Abraham out of the stones.
Lol who is you guys? I am not a member of the Catholic Church, nor is my family. Heck until today and this very thread I thought the Immaculate Conception was the "Virgin Birth".
I'd recommend using great care before laying a charge of blasphemy on someone, and if it be at all possible to not even make the accusation against a person. I forgive you lightly because I am a forgiving person and because I also like you quite a bit, forgive my clement bias and failure to communicate fully in writing, but that is one accusation that ought not be taken lightly. I don't think you hate me enough to stone me to death, but consider it some wisdom and take it and use it for yourself.
I agree God is not hindered by anything we do, in fact man can do nothing to stop God. Man will constantly stumble on the Rock and be broken or the Rock will fall upon them and they will be grounded to dust. The Rock came crashing down from heaven and the Statue of Man was destroyed.
I like the thinking on the topic of "Why God Chose a Virgin to bear Jesus in the flesh" as a interesting question indeed. I like your reasoning and agree with it, but save for the fact I think there be more than one reason. One I like is this;
Isaiah 7
1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.[SUP]
2 [/SUP]And it was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim. And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then said the Lord unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Thus saith the Lord God, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Moreover the Lord spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]The Lord shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall hiss for the fly that is in the uttermost part of the rivers of Egypt, and for the bee that is in the land of Assyria.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]In the same day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired, namely, by them beyond the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet: and it shall also consume the beard.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, that a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in that day, that every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall even be for briers and thorns.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]With arrows and with bows shall men come thither; because all the land shall become briers and thorns.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And on all hills that shall be digged with the mattock, there shall not come thither the fear of briers and thorns: but it shall be for the sending forth of oxen, and for the treading of lesser cattle.
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I posted the exact wording of the dogma. Perhaps you could read what it actually says to help you grasp what is being promoted by the RCC, which teaches original sin. You seem to have completely overlooked that.
Sin and death passed into the world because of one man's disobedience. All are born with a sin nature, of the flesh, estranged from God, in need of being born again of the Holy Spirit of God. RCC says Mary was not born with the sin nature, and against others Scriptures, claim she remained sinless her whole life, though she herself confessed Jesus as her Savior.
Sin and death passed into the world because of one man's disobedience. All are born with a sin nature, of the flesh, estranged from God, in need of being born again of the Holy Spirit of God. RCC says Mary was not born with the sin nature, and against others Scriptures, claim she remained sinless her whole life, though she herself confessed Jesus as her Savior.
Now, out of this sinless nature of Mary comes their other ex cathedra dogma,
of the bodily assumption of Mary to heaven, again something there is absolutely
zero Biblical support for, while actually going against what Scripture specifically
teaches. The RCC says Mary never died, and therefore you can pray to her, and
she will intercede on your behalf, even though Scripture is plain that there is only
one mediator between God and man, and it is Jesus, not Mary. Jesus instructed us
to pray to God, while the RCC instructs you to pray to dead people, including Mary.
of the bodily assumption of Mary to heaven, again something there is absolutely
zero Biblical support for, while actually going against what Scripture specifically
teaches. The RCC says Mary never died, and therefore you can pray to her, and
she will intercede on your behalf, even though Scripture is plain that there is only
one mediator between God and man, and it is Jesus, not Mary. Jesus instructed us
to pray to God, while the RCC instructs you to pray to dead people, including Mary.
I read it and hence my point that in the part they say she is born sinless, sure, Ezekiel basically says we are and so does elsewhere in the Bible. I saw there other RCC beliefs in the link provided by Test and agree with that part. Lol this Assumption one is one I never heard of before and found intriguing but figured maybe that a whole other topic.
Sure sin and death passed into The World. All men fall short living in the fallen world. Every man fell in this fallen one except for Jesus. That doesn't mean they are born fallen though. A blank slate at birth, I liked their example of the verse even:
Romans 9:11
[SUP]11 [/SUP](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
I think the part Mary born sinless sounds fine. Same with Joseph as pointed out in another post lol. Same with you and dare I say even myself? True though that every man has fallen in the fallen world. Well, except for one which is Jesus. So that rather makes all the more sense why Jesus is the only Savior.
Closest thing if I wanna be an utter Pharisee and seek a Mary sin I could find is after her birthing of Jesus at wedding to Cana, her telling Jesus the people have no wine. Though I suppose graciously indeed she had no idea what she was really asking for at that time.
John 2:5
1And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
Sure sin and death passed into The World. All men fall short living in the fallen world. Every man fell in this fallen one except for Jesus. That doesn't mean they are born fallen though. A blank slate at birth, I liked their example of the verse even:
Romans 9:11
[SUP]11 [/SUP](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
I think the part Mary born sinless sounds fine. Same with Joseph as pointed out in another post lol. Same with you and dare I say even myself? True though that every man has fallen in the fallen world. Well, except for one which is Jesus. So that rather makes all the more sense why Jesus is the only Savior.
Closest thing if I wanna be an utter Pharisee and seek a Mary sin I could find is after her birthing of Jesus at wedding to Cana, her telling Jesus the people have no wine. Though I suppose graciously indeed she had no idea what she was really asking for at that time.
John 2:5
1And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
I read it and hence my point that in the part they say she is born sinless, sure, Ezekiel basically says we are and so does elsewhere in the Bible. I saw there other RCC beliefs in the link provided by Test and agree with that part. Lol this Assumption one is one I never heard of before and found intriguing but figured maybe that a whole other topic.
Sure sin and death passed into The World. All men fall short living in the fallen world. Every man fell in this fallen one except for Jesus. That doesn't mean they are born fallen though. A blank slate at birth, I liked their example of the verse even:
Romans 9:11
[SUP]11 [/SUP](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
I think the part Mary born sinless sounds fine. Same with Joseph as pointed out in another post lol. Same with you and dare I say even myself? True though that every man has fallen in the fallen world. Well, except for one which is Jesus. So that rather makes all the more sense why Jesus is the only Savior.
Closest thing if I wanna be an utter Pharisee and seek a Mary sin I could find is after her birthing of Jesus at wedding to Cana, her telling Jesus the people have no wine. Though I suppose graciously indeed she had no idea what she was really asking for at that time.
John 2:5
1And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
Sure sin and death passed into The World. All men fall short living in the fallen world. Every man fell in this fallen one except for Jesus. That doesn't mean they are born fallen though. A blank slate at birth, I liked their example of the verse even:
Romans 9:11
[SUP]11 [/SUP](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
I think the part Mary born sinless sounds fine. Same with Joseph as pointed out in another post lol. Same with you and dare I say even myself? True though that every man has fallen in the fallen world. Well, except for one which is Jesus. So that rather makes all the more sense why Jesus is the only Savior.
Closest thing if I wanna be an utter Pharisee and seek a Mary sin I could find is after her birthing of Jesus at wedding to Cana, her telling Jesus the people have no wine. Though I suppose graciously indeed she had no idea what she was really asking for at that time.
John 2:5
1And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
If the answer is yes it is because they sinned...
If they sinned they have the sin nature, and are born sinners just like all of us...
I should not have said "the only reason" as prophecy and miracle are reasons as well, but there are other ways to have prophecy and miracle in a birth, the reason for virginity is so no one can claim to be baring the Son of God...
Jesus and Enoch are the only two that are still alive... Enoch because he found favor with God, Jesus because he is God. The wages of sin are death.
Never says in the Bible, but I'd probably proudly and then sadly and regretfully wager a bet that they did.
Doesn't mean they were born as sinner though, or for that matter died as sinners either.
Lol well true not the only reason, but no need to be too hard on yourself, that's pretty good reasoning, a sign that no one has seen!
As for the Assumption stuff about Mary, or as I like to think of the concept Translation, well maybe, it never says she wasn't. As for verified characters to be Taken in the Bible, Enoch is one yes, but also let us not forget Elijah. Jesus was not Taken or Translated like all the saints and the two olive branches though. Jesus was crucified, resurrected and ascended into Heaven. Immaculately at that, an Immaculate Ascension I might call that event, but afraid that might also be the title of some man's doctrine somewhere on this side of time called Anno Domini.
Doesn't mean they were born as sinner though, or for that matter died as sinners either.
Lol well true not the only reason, but no need to be too hard on yourself, that's pretty good reasoning, a sign that no one has seen!
As for the Assumption stuff about Mary, or as I like to think of the concept Translation, well maybe, it never says she wasn't. As for verified characters to be Taken in the Bible, Enoch is one yes, but also let us not forget Elijah. Jesus was not Taken or Translated like all the saints and the two olive branches though. Jesus was crucified, resurrected and ascended into Heaven. Immaculately at that, an Immaculate Ascension I might call that event, but afraid that might also be the title of some man's doctrine somewhere on this side of time called Anno Domini.
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I read it and hence my point that in the part they say she is born sinless, sure, Ezekiel basically says we are and so does elsewhere in the Bible. I saw there other RCC beliefs in the link provided by Test and agree with that part. Lol this Assumption one is one I never heard of before and found intriguing but figured maybe that a whole other topic.
Sure sin and death passed into The World. All men fall short living in the fallen world. Every man fell in this fallen one except for Jesus. That doesn't mean they are born fallen though. A blank slate at birth, I liked their example of the verse even:
Romans 9:11
[SUP]11 [/SUP](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
I think the part Mary born sinless sounds fine. Same with Joseph as pointed out in another post lol. Same with you and dare I say even myself? True though that every man has fallen in the fallen world. Well, except for one which is Jesus. So that rather makes all the more sense why Jesus is the only Savior.
Closest thing if I wanna be an utter Pharisee and seek a Mary sin I could find is after her birthing of Jesus at wedding to Cana, her telling Jesus the people have no wine. Though I suppose graciously indeed she had no idea what she was really asking for at that time.
John 2:5
1And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
Sure sin and death passed into The World. All men fall short living in the fallen world. Every man fell in this fallen one except for Jesus. That doesn't mean they are born fallen though. A blank slate at birth, I liked their example of the verse even:
Romans 9:11
[SUP]11 [/SUP](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
I think the part Mary born sinless sounds fine. Same with Joseph as pointed out in another post lol. Same with you and dare I say even myself? True though that every man has fallen in the fallen world. Well, except for one which is Jesus. So that rather makes all the more sense why Jesus is the only Savior.
Closest thing if I wanna be an utter Pharisee and seek a Mary sin I could find is after her birthing of Jesus at wedding to Cana, her telling Jesus the people have no wine. Though I suppose graciously indeed she had no idea what she was really asking for at that time.
John 2:5
1And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
In fact the RCC call Mary the second Eve (in the manner of Jesus being called
the second Adam) and from this extrapolate to calling her the mother of humanity.
Your Romans verse has to do with election, not sinlessness.
Lol well frankly I didn't agree with their doctrine before and didn't find their website to put it like that, well the way you but it that actually sounds appealing and like the Bible agrees. Not even pagan or idolatrous at all. In a way being the mother of Jesus she pretty much is the mother of humanity. Though the Catholics seem on their site to rely on Luke 1 for this, I'd say behold rather John
John 19:25-28
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
John 19:25-28
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Sounds like one of those sci fi loops, where Mary would have had to exist from everlasting like Jesus does by virtue of Him being the eternal immortal God... then she is born into the fabric of time, so she can give birth to Jesus, to be the mother of humanity, though He pre-existed His human incarnation, easily enough evidenced in Scripture, whereas nothing can show for Mary's pre existence, that would allow for her to be the mother of humanity. Her being the second Eve is just another idolatrous fabrication equating her with Christ.
Why does the first Eve not being an idol have any bearing at all on Mary being idolized when she is equated with Christ? Who equates the first Eve to Jesus Christ? Jesus is the second Adam, perfection in human form, God in the flesh, sinless, conceived of the Holy Spirit of God, in Whom we live and nove and have our being, as explicitly recorded in Scripture, compared to nothing in Scripture calling Mary the second Eve, nothing naming her the mother of humanity, nothing to suggest we should pray to her, nothing to say she intercedes for us, nothing to suggest she was sinless, nothing suggesting she is immortal and never died and was bodily assumed to heaven, quite the opposite in fact on all points: ONE mediator between God and man; all have sinned; pray to the Father; only God is immortal, etc, etc, etc.
Have you seen the movie Dogma?
Have you seen the movie Dogma?
Well what about how Jesus says to the disciple he loved; behold thy mother?
Sounds like the second Eve to me.
I haven't personally nor seen on that Catholic website them equating Mary or for that matter Eve to Christ. I see you equating Mary to Christ based on your beliefs of their beliefs, but I guess that's okay too. Neither is idolatry because living people aren't idols.
Philippians 2:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Sounds like the second Eve to me.
I haven't personally nor seen on that Catholic website them equating Mary or for that matter Eve to Christ. I see you equating Mary to Christ based on your beliefs of their beliefs, but I guess that's okay too. Neither is idolatry because living people aren't idols.
Philippians 2:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: