Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004

[PeterJens]

so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky
Phil 2:15

to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Eph 5:27

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:8

If love fulfills the law it makes the believer righteous, walking as a child of the
Kingdom in perfection.

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Gal 5:14

Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Rom 13:10

Now those who do not know love in their hearts cannot fulfil the law and have no
part in Christ.

This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.
1 John 3:16

If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.
John 8:42

Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
John 14:23

Now you cannot separate the love for Jesus from obedience of His teaching.

But to truly start this walk you need to know the love that drove Christ to the
cross and be overwhelmed by it. There is no substitute for from this vine
everything else spring. If the cross is some distant court room event, you
have not really seen Jesus and His heart.

Nothing else in our relationship with God is more stunning than this, that
the Lord of all creation would come and walk with us, show us one to one
how to be, to teach us face to face and then to die an innocent man at the
hands of hypocrites like us and forgive us, in so doing to set us free and
embrace us with salvation and the Kingdom of Heaven if we are prepared
to listen and obey and walk in His ways as a response to His call.

 

[willybob]

A saved Christian OBEYING GOD FROM THE HEART "ie" faith is a representative (ambassador of Christ) no? if other wise, he like the Jews will be cut off..Please repent and stop twisting Paul's message...Paul preached both the goodness and severity of God as was expressed in Exodus 34, for God is a jealous God and commands obedience.

 

[Grace777x70]

****as long as we stay connected to the Vine---we are in Christ----He cannot deny Himself----if we reject or deny Him---eventually we will be a dead branch gathered for the fire----Life is in the Son (Vine)...

In context you will see that Jesus is talking about bearing fruit in John 15 - not for eternal salvation which is only based on His work. He that has the Son has eternal life.

Mix these up and we have a humanistic performance driven religion of trying to stay connected to Christ which is nonsense. We are "in Christ" now and forever will be.

The bearing of the fruit of the Spirit is a different thing. We are in Christ because of God's doing - not what we do.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

1 Corinthians 1:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

 

[willybob]

knowing this first, many will come in the appearance of godliness, speaking great swelling words of emptiness (rhetoric) sprinkled with sugar and spice and everything nice. God said he even sent them to test you and prove you, to see if you love the truth or will follow after other gods Deut. 13.

So John warns us "LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU, he that does righteousness IS RIGHTEOUS, just as He is righteous, and he that sins is of the devil"

Again VIRTUE is NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, transferred anywhere in the bible. Righteous is something that you DO by following our righteous example, Jesus the Holy One of Israel. If anyone tells you different John said they are trying to deceive you and bring you down to their level (a child of disobedience) for the sake of justify themselves (self righteousness)...

Make not an idol out of Jesus in that He did it all for you, but rather make Him your righteous example to follow after in life...Therefore yes Christ is our righteousness in that He is our righteous example to follow after...

Dig Deep and build your house on the solid foundation of the Rock of Truth, lest your house be swept away by the global flood of lies, for the apostle John also said "the whole world lieth in wickedness, but ye know that ye are of God"

 

[Grandpa]

Are you a 5 point Calvinist?
Are you one of the elect?

That's the only way anything you've said makes any sense.
God's gift is the availability He has made possible from the beginning of the world to have your sin and sins forgiven through His sacrifice for you, His Son, The Christ.

I hope you know that before this, NO ONE was allowed into heaven,
See Luke 16. The Rich Man and Lazarus.

The rest is up to you.
Except the Holy Spirit guides us and helps us every day of our life
IF we accept Him.

I don't have any problems with the 5 points attributed to Calvin. Except possibly Limited Atonement.

If, by elect, you mean saved, then yes.

Would it be weird for someone to argue for OSAS and not be saved?


I don't see how any of this changes any of the bible passages that I posted... Unless it is easier for you to put God in a box that way and say 'yeah, thats just what Calvinists believe'.

I wouldn't really call myself a Calvinist anymore than I would call myself a Paulist. Even though I agree with both of them. I haven't seen any contradiction in agreeing with them and still being a Christian.

 

[88]

In context you will see that Jesus is talking about bearing fruit in John 15 - not for eternal salvation which is only based on His work. He that has the Son has eternal life.

Mix these up and we have a humanistic performance driven religion of trying to stay connected to Christ which is nonsense. We are "in Christ" now and forever will be.

The bearing of the fruit of the Spirit is a different thing. We are in Christ because of God's doing - not what we do.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

1 Corinthians 1:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

****I see your point---but I count the Words of Jesus here as a warning: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered: and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."-----to say this only speaks of bearing fruit is forgetting our Life is in the Son---abiding in the Vine---if we abide not, yes there is no fruit---and then eventually we wither and then eventually we will be cast into the fire---we do not possess eternal life apart from Christ----Life is in the Son...

 

[willybob]

The principles of man working together with God are plastered all over the text from Genesis to Revelation.

Here is an excellent example given by Paul in the letter to the Philippians.

2-12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, workout you own salvation with fear and trembling (fear of God; in that it’s a fearful thing to fall in the judgement hands of the living God, for the wrath of God remains on the children of disobedience)

13 “for it is Him that worketh (energeo) in you both to will and to do His good pleasure”

These two verses are in harmony with the working dynamics of grace and faith found in Eph. 2-8..Man strives to enter working out his part by a faithfulness to God that works by love and does no ill to His neighbor. And God energizes that faith with the working dynamic of grace. The conduit is faith and the energizing power “energeo” in the Greek) that is delivered through the conduit is the power of God’s grace, the Spirit of grace. (empowerment of the Spirit to life godly) Titus 2-12,13,14. It’s always saved by His grace coupled with our faith. And remember no one can save themselves for only God can forgive past sins through the blood atonement of Christ. Likewise God can’t just save anyone without their consent. Man must repent and come clean with Him first in that they might be saved by His mercy. It’s called conditional covenant of redemption theology, not Penal Substitution theology, the two are as different as night and day. Again man is a worker together with God to bring about a fellowship of love that cannot be achieved by any other means…. It’s the very essence of COVENANT, for man MUST enter into a covenant relationship with God in order to be saved..

Who are those that are being saved? Those that obey God and hold fast to His conditional requirements of salvation...The false pundits would have you believe its an unconditional covenant. Yes, their version is the reformatted Penal Substitution. What they really mean is that Jesus did it all for you and you do nothing concerning ones salvation. This is why they fail to understand what Jesus meant when He said “it is finished”..Jesus meant the way of salvation through the New Covenant had now been established, in that now God can now justify His mercy upon mankind, not that He did everything/obeyed for you.

 

[Grace777x70]

****I see your point---but I count the Words of Jesus here as a warning: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered: and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."-----to say this only speaks of bearing fruit is forgetting our Life is in the Son---abiding in the Vine---if we abide not, yes there is no fruit---and then eventually we wither and then eventually we will be cast into the fire---we do not possess eternal life apart from Christ----Life is in the Son...

I agree that we do not possess eternal life without Christ. I also agree about bearing fruit is in experiencing Christ's life only that is manifesting in and through us. This doesn't negate the truth that we are in Christ now when we receive Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit.

These are 2 separate things. The truth is because we are always "in Christ" - that is the reason we can bear His fruit in our lives. Without Him we can do nothing.

If we don't abide in Christ's peace while in this world - then we will not experience that peace and "men will come with their threads" and we will not experience that peace - which is a fruit of the spirit within us. Do we not go to be with the Lord now because this peace didn't come to fruition?

What about joy? Men and circumstances come to take our joy that is in us away. We can let them do that and when we do - we will not experience His life while on this earth. Does that mean we get kicked out of Christ now and when we die we will not be with the Lord? Of course not.

I could do this for every one of the fruit of the spirit. Yes, we need to abide/remain with all that Christ has already done for us in His perfect work. Then we will bear much fruit. It is His fruit that is being borne. We do not generate fruit ourselves.

I say - let's preach and teach the love and grace of Christ so that the Christians will have the proper "nutrients" to grow up in the Lord and bear much fruit.

 

[PeterJens]

To g7 this is no longer a discussion of interpretation, he deems demons as
the source of following Jesus's example.

Following in Jesus's footsteps appears not to be g7's goal.

In a sense this is not true, but in the confusion of concepts this is where
he is going.

 

[gb9]

To g7 this is no longer a discussion of interpretation, he deems demons as
the source of following Jesus's example.

Following in Jesus's footsteps appears not to be g7's goal.

In a sense this is not true, but in the confusion of concepts this is where
he is going.

well, you never discuss anything. never. only lecture and slander. while I do not 100% agree with everything grace7 says, he is 100x more right than you.

 

[FranC]

The principles of man working together with God are plastered all over the text from Genesis to Revelation.

Here is an excellent example given by Paul in the letter to the Philippians.

2-12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, workout you own salvation with fear and trembling (fear of God; in that it’s a fearful thing to fall in the judgement hands of the living God, for the wrath of God remains on the children of disobedience)

13 “for it is Him that worketh (energeo) in you both to will and to do His good pleasure”

These two verses are in harmony with the working dynamics of grace and faith found in Eph. 2-8..Man strives to enter working out his part by a faithfulness to God that works by love and does no ill to His neighbor. And God energizes that faith with the working dynamic of grace. The conduit is faith and the energizing power “energeo” in the Greek) that is delivered through the conduit is the power of God’s grace, the Spirit of grace. (empowerment of the Spirit to life godly) Titus 2-12,13,14. It’s always saved by His grace coupled with our faith. And remember no one can save themselves for only God can forgive past sins through the blood atonement of Christ. Likewise God can’t just save anyone without their consent. Man must repent and come clean with Him first in that they might be saved by His mercy. It’s called conditional covenant of redemption theology, not Penal Substitution theology, the two are as different as night and day. Again man is a worker together with God to bring about a fellowship of love that cannot be achieved by any other means…. It’s the very essence of COVENANT, for man MUST enter into a covenant relationship with God in order to be saved..

Who are those that are being saved? Those that obey God and hold fast to His conditional requirements of salvation...The false pundits would have you believe its an unconditional covenant. Yes, their version is the reformatted Penal Substitution. What they really mean is that Jesus did it all for you and you do nothing concerning ones salvation. This is why they fail to understand what Jesus meant when He said “it is finished”..Jesus meant the way of salvation through the New Covenant had now been established, in that now God can now justify His mercy upon mankind, not that He did everything/obeyed for you.

Your last 3 sentences encapsulate the N.C. perfectly!

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by PeterJens

To g7 this is no longer a discussion of interpretation, he deems demons as
the source of following Jesus's example.

Following in Jesus's footsteps appears not to be g7's goal.

In a sense this is not true, but in the confusion of concepts this is where
he is going.

well, you never discuss anything. never. only lecture and slander. while I do not 100% agree with everything grace7 says, he is 100x more right than you.

/QUOTE]

What happens in some people's minds is this:

Someone makes the statement:

"What a beautiful blue sky the Lord gave us today."

Someone else responds back to the above statement:

"What? The sky is not green- everyone knows that the sky is blue - you do not want to follow in Jesus's footsteps, oryou are lawless and an enemy of Christ, a heretic and false teacher, satanic, delusional".

When people have this kind of a mindset - it is impossible to have any kind of a rational discussion with them as they continually "see" something else than what is actually said. They then proceed to talk as if this "made-up thought" is real.

And sometimes we can just agree to disagree too but to deliberately mis-represent what is really being said is deceitful and with these types I have no interaction with until I see that they are at the very least being honest in their discussions and not being abusive and insulting others.

As the saying goes - There is something wrong in Denmark and is most likely just a waste of time to interact with such a mindset as no good can come out of it until repentance is granted by the Lord. This is why I ignore some people. They will just continue to slander others and think nothing of it.

The irony of this thing is that some that say we are to walk in righteousness and purity of heart ( which we all agree is a fruit of His life manifesting in and through us ) - are the very ones walking in malice and slandering of others. These are no different than the people that say it's ok to live a homosexual lifestyle. They are in the same lists as being a work of the flesh.

 

[willybob]

Your last 3 sentences encapsulate the N.C. perfectly!

Thank you FranC my fellow laborer in the field..Your are a breath of fresh air amongst the stench of sinful lies being perpetrated by many..God bless you and keep up the good fight in the name of Jesus of Nazareth, the Holy One of Israel

 

[PeterJens]

well, you never discuss anything. never. only lecture and slander. while I do not 100% agree with everything grace7 says, he is 100x more right than you.

This idea of being more right than me is interesting.
I quote scripture, expand on ideas put forward by Jesus and the apostles,
and yet I am wrong.

I speak with an open heart, and am willing to listen, yet now because you
have no answers just wish to make statements about me and not the issues.

I am not surprised, except gb9 you claim to have read the bible many times.
Why have the fundamentals not gone home. God clear declares those who
walk in righteousness holy and blessed.

 

[PeterJens]

I find this idea of me slandering others when I have merely repeated back what
they are saying, means it is not the words that they dislike so much but the
feeling associated with them.

But I am not the one saying teaching is from demons, I am merely sharing Gods
word. We will not agree and we both know why. You have a life experience that
tells you what spiritual reality is, and we disagree.

If you encourage people to walk in Christs ways and read His word, amen.
God bless you. If you teach hatred and bitterness towards fellow believers
then you disown yourselves from love and the oneness we have in Christ,
and equally you will be disowned.

 

[willybob]

This idea of being more right than me is interesting.
I quote scripture, expand on ideas put forward by Jesus and the apostles,
and yet I am wrong.

I speak with an open heart, and am willing to listen, yet now because you
have no answers just wish to make statements about me and not the issues.

I am not surprised, except gb9 you claim to have read the bible many times.
Why have the fundamentals not gone home. God clear declares those who
walk in righteousness holy and blessed.

Peter: Its because they are forever learning but NEVER coming to the knowledge of the truth therefore they remain in their sin thinking they are saved, having not crucified the lusts of the flesh and its passions and desires........Keep up the good fight brother

 

[willybob]

many of them condemn themselves by the very words they speak, by saying that they sin everyday in thought, word, and deed. The devil cant do worse than that...Am I to assume they mean the vile sins of the flesh that will disqualify one from the kingdom, or are they speaking of mistakes in judgement, sins of ignorance that we are to confess in the Lords prayer. They never clarify. I sometimes wonder if they equate a moment of anger or mistake in judgement with pedophilia or porn watching. It does make one wonder. I hope they dont mean the vile sins of the flesh.

 

[mailmandan]

Repentance is mans response to realising they are sinners lost in sin and need God
to resolve the issues. The revelation of sin and need and knowing the solution is
a gift, but repentance is the response of the people.

Repentance

The sign of Jonah
Jonah swallowed by a whale, spat out with a message to Nineveh to repent because of their
evil behaviour or be judged.

Their response was to repent, wear sack cloth and ashes to show remorse and sorrow for
the sin they had commited and God forgave them and did not judge them.

In Matthew 12:41, we see when God saw their works, that they turned from their wicked way, then God "relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them." In Jonah 3:4, we see that Jonah told the people of Ninevah that the city of Ninevah would be overthrown in 40 days if they do not repent of their wickedness (Jonah 1:2). The people of Ninevah repented "changed their minds" at the preaching of Jonah, believed God, and "turned from their evil ways" - "fruit of repentance" (Jonah 3:5,10; Matthew 3:8). Keeping with Strong's designation, the Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance is a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. For the people of Ninevah, the object of their repentance was changing their mind about continuing in their wicked ways, not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ to save them. The content of their faith was believing that God would overthrow Ninevah, not trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption for salvation.

And this is the sign of Christ to a fallen world.

"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” Luke 5:22

Repent "change your mind" - new direction of this change of mind - "faith in Christ for salvation." Repentance in receiving salvation precedes believe/believe the gospel/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live.
Ezek 18:21-22

Old Covenant or New Covenant?

But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
Ezek 18:24

This is true repentance.

Ezekiel 18:29 - Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trust in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3-4 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that BELIEVES.

 

[willybob]

The whole city of Nenevah had forsaken their sins in sat cloth and ashes, hoping and praying that perhaps God would turn from His wrath.

Jesus said those people of Nenevah who repented would rise up in judgement of the cites like Coprenium and Betrhseda where Jesus had done great miracles because they were STILL in their sin and repented not and a greater than Jonah has testified against them. Like wise with the Queen of Sheba..In fact He said that Sodom and Gamorrah would have repented if they had seen the likes of such miracles, but ye repent not. He upbraided whole cities who refused to abandon their sin where He had done great miracles like feeding the 5000 etc..Solomon said "he that confesses and forsakes his sin shall find mercy"

change your mind but still sin anyway? sounds like a DOUBLE MINDED MAN unstable in all his ways, no?

 

[mailmandan]

The whole city of Nenevah had forsaken their sins in sat cloth and ashes, hoping and praying that perhaps God would turn from His wrath.

Jesus said those people of Nenevah who repented would rise up in judgement of the cites like Coprenium and Betrhseda where Jesus had done great miracles because they were STILL in their sin and repented not and a greater than Jonah has testified against them. Like wise with the Queen of Sheba..In fact He said that Sodom and Gamorrah would have repented if they had seen the likes of such miracles, but ye repent not. He upbraided whole cities who refused to abandon their sin where He had done great miracles like feeding the 5000 etc..Solomon said "he that confesses and forsakes his sin shall find mercy"

Do you teach that repentance means to become sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect (exactly as Jesus is) 100% of the time? Do you believe this describes you?