Folks who teach a pre tribulation gathering of the church do not take into account that before Paul(who they say taught a pre-trib gathering) there was a thriving church with thousands of members who were being taught that Christ would return at some future date, in the sky, with trumpet blast, and angels, after the tribulation, and gather the believers to Himself in the sky. How do I know that? Because Jesus taught His return and the gathering of the believers, to the apostles, and instructed the apostles to teach it to the church. The church from day one was waiting for the return of Christ to gather them, and the only return of Christ that the church had been given was the post tribulation return of Christ. Think for a moment, the first church before Paul had to be post tribulation gathering(because there was no other teaching). So before Paul we have the church believing in the return of Christ that Jesus had given the apostles to give to the church, a post tribulation gathering. So years later when Paul joined the church he would have had to have accepted the post-tribulation gathering just as the rest of the church was believing. This is shown because Paul described the return of Christ in the same way that Jesus did. This proves that the Thess letters describe a post-tribulation gathering and not a pre tribulation gathering as has been supposed...so no pre tribulation gathering of the church.
CHURCH BEFORE PAUL
- Thread starter samuel23
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Any one who has read the NT knows that Jesus described His return to the apostles and later told the apostles to teach to the church what he had taught then(which they did). It is also well know that Paul was not a part of the church until some years later. The rest of it is just deductive reasoning.
Exactly, so deduce the fact that since scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath on the earth and that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and figure that information into your deductive reasoning. If believers are not appointed to suffer wrath and God's wrath must take place between right now and up until Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. It should lead you and everyone else to conclude that we must be gathered prior to God's wrath, since we are not appointed to suffer it. This is where your exegesis fails. And that because you hang on to what you've been taught, instead of factoring in what I just provided from scripture.
Hi Samuel,
Paul was saved 2 years after the death of Jesus, not years later. Also, Paul doesn't teach Pretrib per say. It's man that categorized the end times scenarios and categories.
We have many different opinions about the return of Christ. What we can know scripturally is limited. There are a few mysteries that haven't been revealed yet.
There's a lot we do know and there's a lot we don't know. We don't have the full picture yet. I'm premillennial because of Paul's, John's, the OT prophets writings and because of what Jesus said and I only see one return of Jesus, but others see that there's two.
This is one subject that I believe we'll have more revelation when the time draws nearer.
Paul was saved 2 years after the death of Jesus, not years later. Also, Paul doesn't teach Pretrib per say. It's man that categorized the end times scenarios and categories.
We have many different opinions about the return of Christ. What we can know scripturally is limited. There are a few mysteries that haven't been revealed yet.
There's a lot we do know and there's a lot we don't know. We don't have the full picture yet. I'm premillennial because of Paul's, John's, the OT prophets writings and because of what Jesus said and I only see one return of Jesus, but others see that there's two.
This is one subject that I believe we'll have more revelation when the time draws nearer.
Same time period was when this happened:
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place................
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
There ain't no flees on me....
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place................
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
There ain't no flees on me....
AH, YOU say that the tribulation Jesus describes is the wrath of God...JESUS did not say that the tribulation he described is the wrath of God! It is a time of war, famine, disease, earthquakes and a great persecution of those who believe in Jesus Christ. Who would persecute those who believe in Jesus Christ...according to you it would be God because the tribulation Jesus described is the wrath of God according to you...Satan is the persecutor of the Christians...not God.
E
Same time period was when this happened:
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place................
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
There ain't no flees on me....
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place................
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
There ain't no flees on me....
Jerusalem was surrounded by armies in Pauls day, it was a roman territory. so whats your point? AD 70 was when jerusalem was destroyed according to Dan 9, but that was prophesied,
Are you saying the elect was called by an angel on AD 70?
come on man, you seem to be deflecting, where is the proof. what day?
you can post scripture all you want, You need proof to prove your INTERPRETATION of said scripture..
(note, generation can mean age, or time period. it is not always interpreted the way you see it)
I can't give you a specific day I wasn't there to see it. We have proof of a 66-70 AD war with armies compassing Jerusalem and it's destruction.
Yes, generation can mean other than that generation:
Strongs
G1074 genea ghen-eh-ah'
from (a presumed derivative of) G1085;
a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):--age,
generation, nation, time.
But it's is more than likely that the generation that heard his message were the ones being warned.
I can post scripture all I want, the proof is in the text just like the proof of the resurrection of Christ is in the text.
The wedding and the harvest and the wrath to come are all part and parcel of the same motif.
Christ is spoken of as having the winnowing fork in his hand by John the Baptist:
Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire
He's previously warned his hearers:
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
It seems to me that there is an "audience" related connection between the harvest and the "wrath to come".
John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
John's gospel helps us flesh out the timing and who is being harvested - "fields; for they are white already to harvest".
Mat 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
Mat 9:38 KJV Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
I think we are well within reason to say the "labourers" were his apostles and disciples of the 1st century.
A slightly different view point of the tares and wheat:
Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
.
.
.
Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
This is an obvious allusion to 1st century Jerusalem.
The wedding and the harvest and wrath are all part and parcel of the same motif.
Yes, generation can mean other than that generation:
Strongs
G1074 genea ghen-eh-ah'
from (a presumed derivative of) G1085;
a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):--age,
generation, nation, time.
But it's is more than likely that the generation that heard his message were the ones being warned.
I can post scripture all I want, the proof is in the text just like the proof of the resurrection of Christ is in the text.
The wedding and the harvest and the wrath to come are all part and parcel of the same motif.
Christ is spoken of as having the winnowing fork in his hand by John the Baptist:
Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire
He's previously warned his hearers:
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
It seems to me that there is an "audience" related connection between the harvest and the "wrath to come".
John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
John's gospel helps us flesh out the timing and who is being harvested - "fields; for they are white already to harvest".
Mat 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
Mat 9:38 KJV Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
I think we are well within reason to say the "labourers" were his apostles and disciples of the 1st century.
A slightly different view point of the tares and wheat:
Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
.
.
.
Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
This is an obvious allusion to 1st century Jerusalem.
The wedding and the harvest and wrath are all part and parcel of the same motif.
E
That was not what I asked, I asked when the angel gathered the elect from the 4 corners..
Most likely is not proof.. It is just an interpretation.
The ressurection is proven outside of scripture. And is a known fact
I asked when people were gathered from the 4 corners of the earth.
again, When did the angel gather the elect? Where is your proof? Do you not have any?
Most likely is not proof.. It is just an interpretation.
The ressurection is proven outside of scripture. And is a known fact
I asked when people were gathered from the 4 corners of the earth.
again, When did the angel gather the elect? Where is your proof? Do you not have any?
Where's your proof it didn't ....
Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat 11:17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
Mat 11:18 KJV) For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Where's your proof that "The Son of man came eating and drinking"??
Keep on piping...
Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat 11:17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
Mat 11:18 KJV) For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Where's your proof that "The Son of man came eating and drinking"??
Keep on piping...