CHURCH BEFORE PAUL

[followjesus]

Folks who teach a pre tribulation gathering of the church do not take into account that before Paul(who they say taught a pre-trib gathering) there was a thriving church with thousands of members who were being taught that Christ would return at some future date, in the sky, with trumpet blast, and angels, after the tribulation, and gather the believers to Himself in the sky. How do I know that? Because Jesus taught His return and the gathering of the believers, to the apostles, and instructed the apostles to teach it to the church. The church from day one was waiting for the return of Christ to gather them, and the only return of Christ that the church had been given was the post tribulation return of Christ. Think for a moment, the first church before Paul had to be post tribulation gathering(because there was no other teaching). So before Paul we have the church believing in the return of Christ that Jesus had given the apostles to give to the church, a post tribulation gathering. So years later when Paul joined the church he would have had to have accepted the post-tribulation gathering just as the rest of the church was believing. This is shown because Paul described the return of Christ in the same way that Jesus did. This proves that the Thess letters describe a post-tribulation gathering and not a pre tribulation gathering as has been supposed...so no pre tribulation gathering of the church.

matthew 24:29-31 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

2 Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The gathering together and the destroying "of his coming" is one event - after the great tribulation:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken,

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The elect were 1st century saints.

Oh boy, Now i have heard everything..

 

[Locutus]

No, no, there's more...

Not only were the elect 1st century Christians so were the 144,000 of the book of revelation:

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Look who James is calling the first fruits:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.



Darn, that there scripture sure does get in the way of bogus "theologies"..

 

[dcontroversal]

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

1st century AD.

Applicable to the generation that sees all the signs come to pass.....when did the sun go dark, moon not give light and the stars fall from the heaven....?

 

[Locutus]

The language is figurative – here is what Adam Clarke has to say in his commentary on Isa 13:10

For the stars of heaven "Yea, the stars of heaven" - The Hebrew poets, to express happiness, prosperity, the instauration and advancement of states, kingdoms, and potentates, make use of images taken from the most striking parts of nature, from the heavenly bodies, from the sun, moon, and stars which they describe as shining with increased splendor, and never setting. The moon becomes like the meridian sun, and the sun's light is augmented seven fold;

(see Isa 30:26) new heavens and a new earth are created, and a brighter age commences. On the contrary, the overflow and destruction of kingdoms is represented by opposite images. The stars are obscured, the moon withdraws her light, and the sun shines no more! The earth quakes, and the heavens tremble; and all things seem tending to their original chaos, See Joel 2:10; Joe 3:15, Joe 3:16; Amo 8:9; Mat 24:29;

And the moon shall not cause her light to shine - This in its farther reference may belong to the Jewish polity, both in Church and state,which should be totally eclipsed, and perhaps shine no more in its distinct state for ever.


The stars of heaven and the sun and moon were not affected physically back when God overthrew Babylon, neither were they in 70 AD.