Not By Works

[Roughsoul1991]

AMEN...and the post above yours that pushes a working for....it is our FAITH that overcomes the world.....funny....everyone that pushes that you can lose salvation has never lost it.......they always keep EVERY jot and tittle of the LAW and do every thing right 24/7 and more wonderful works that all grace believers....funny how only GRACE/FAITH believers are the ones who lose it........such hypocrisy....

IF one can lose salvation...there will be NO ONE IN HEAVEN other than JESUS, The FATHER, 24 Elders, 144,000 of the tribes of Israel and the angels........

IT is impossible to re-crucify Christ...lose it once and it cannot be regained (if it could actually be lost)

No one is saying anyone has lost salvation. We only claim its possible. By denying this, your denying scripture. By saying who has lost salvation is very unwise putting this person into the role of God.

Its impossible to know what God does as judge because we cant see the true nature of a person's heart.

We only see by a persons faith, fruit, and lifestyle as a indication of the heart. Not a full picture but the border of the picture. We see the border as a warning that that person could be backsliding and eventually possibly could fall away into apostasy.

We are only warned this could happen.

Now for many of us we see believers fall away all the time. But like i said this is a warning to those people that if they do not turn back, one day they could turn from the love they first knew.

Its a warning and not a judgment because we only see the border and not the heart.

But of course this wont make since to Calvinist who believe God pre elects and carrys that person all the way to salvation with no human interaction or free will at all.

 

[wsblind]

No one is saying anyone has lost salvation. We only claim its possible. By denying this, your denying scripture. By saying who has lost salvation is very unwise putting this person into the role of God.

Its impossible to know what God does as judge because we cant see the true nature of a person's heart.

We only see by a persons faith, fruit, and lifestyle as a indication of the heart. Not a full picture but the border of the picture. We see the border as a warning that that person could be backsliding and eventually possibly could fall away into apostasy.

We are only warned this could happen.

Now for many of us we see believers fall away all the time. But like i said this is a warning to those people that if they do not turn back, one day they could turn from the love they first knew.

Its a warning and not a judgment because we only see the border and not the heart.

But of course this wont make since to Calvinist who believe God pre elects and carrys that person all the way to salvation with no human interaction or free will at all.

You really should study up Calvinism. On the surface it seems to contradict your theology. But it doesn't if you go a little deeper.

Reformed/Calvinism theory of Election and Predestination hinges upon what the saint/creature does. If the Saint/creature doesn't persevere in THEIR walk or faith they will say,"they were never REALLY saved." So in the end, even Calvinism is a works based theology.

Your's believes in loss of salvation. Calvinism/reformed theology says they lost the salvation they THOUGHT they had or they were really not saved.


Christianity says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL be saved. If you don't live a Spirit filled life after salvation you will be disciplined, harshly if need be. And you will lose ETERNAL rewards. But you won't lose salvation.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

You really should study up Calvinism. On the surface it seems to contradict your theology. But it doesn't if you go a little deeper.

Reformed/Calvinism theory of Election and Predestination hinges upon what the saint/creature does. If the Saint/creature doesn't persevere in THEIR walk or faith they will say,"they were never REALLY saved." So in the end, even Calvinism is a works based theology.

Your's believes in loss of salvation. Calvinism/reformed theology says they lost the salvation they THOUGHT they had or they were really not saved.


Christianity says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL be saved. If you don't live a Spirit filled life after salvation you will be disciplined, harshly if need be. And you will lose ETERNAL rewards. But you won't lose salvation.

I agree with you up unto the last few sentences. As to i have studied the basics of Calvinism to know its contridicting and false in some major areas. But on the outside seems very close to true scripture. And i learn on here deeper into Calvinists believes that further agree with my soul that sees the misinterpreted and twisted scripture.

Yes we still as believers have to deal with our sinful choices and the consequences of them choices. So yes i agree with you there.

Your last 2 sentences i do but dont agree with.

I agree we have scripture on eternal rewards on how well we FOLLOW God.

But we also have scripture on what happens when after salvation we lose faith, deny Christ, or fall for false teachings teachings that twist Gods word into many believeing they are saved but are no where near a living faith.

If we really want to examine these its easy to see the difference between the scriptures speaking on rewards and ones speaking on eternal judgment.

Rewards are easy to understand but when words to describe judgment is used. I can almost guess in greek those words mean judgment not rewards

 

[fredoheaven]

But we also have scripture on what happens when after salvation we lose faith, deny Christ, or fall for false teachings teachings that twist Gods word into many believeing they are saved but are no where near a living faith.

If we really want to examine these its easy to see the difference between the scriptures speaking on rewards and ones speaking on eternal judgment.

Rewards are easy to understand but when words to describe judgment is used. I can almost guess in greek those words mean judgment not rewards

Hi,

Would you post scriptures when someone lose faith,there is a lose of salvation? Deny Christ like Peter lose his salvation? or fall on a false belief that he lose his salvation?

Thanks

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Hi,

Would you post scriptures when someone lose faith,there is a lose of salvation? Deny Christ like Peter lose his salvation? or fall on a false belief that he lose his salvation?

Thanks

We only have warnings of this not an actual scripture saying someone did lose salvation. And i never even spoke of Peter losing salvation so i do not see your last question being of importance to our debate. Peter was a great example of one who remains in faith.

1 Timothy 4:1-2Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

4 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, 2 through the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared.

Here is one warning that later in our times believers will fall from faith. But to answer your question we dont have a verse saying and this specific man lost his salvation. We only have scripture warning us and scripture prophecing believers will fall away.

Do you need more examples or was 1 Timothy 4:1-2 enough to get my point across?

My post 3721 also explains our foundation and teaching on these scriptures.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Acts 20:28-30New International Version (NIV)

28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

And i know Calvinist belief is well these who fall away was never saved. But we also have scripture telling believers to remain faithful. So lets see what those say also.

 

[JIMBO43]

Except English, that is just a language.

You spelt except wrong its accept ..
Na english are more white compared to europeen so i would put them into there own species maybe not all english i agree but english speaking people... The same for america... english speaking people are spread out.. And stemed from the antartic... so african (antatric Northern english) asian and and european

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Hi,

Would you post scriptures when someone lose faith,there is a lose of salvation? Deny Christ like Peter lose his salvation? or fall on a false belief that he lose his salvation?

Thanks

Matthew 24:44-51New International Version (NIV)

44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Speaking to servants of Jesus but lost faith in the returning of his master and began to live in the flesh once more.

 

[JIMBO43]

Bro...tragically...every time I see one push a self righteous working for....I think of the plenteous in number who will stand before the throne boasting of their works as a right to enter....only to be denied and cast fro the presence of the Lord....tragic....

So which one will he deny those who stand befor God and boast in the lords work or those who stand befor God who have stoned christians all there lifes...

 

[JIMBO43]

Hi,

Would you post scriptures when someone lose faith,there is a lose of salvation? Deny Christ like Peter lose his salvation? or fall on a false belief that he lose his salvation?

Thanks

Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
Romans 14:13-23


[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. [SUP]1

15 [/SUP]For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. [SUP]16 [/SUP]So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. [SUP]19 [/SUP]So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. [SUP]21 [/SUP]It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]22 [/SUP]The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.[SUP][b]


[/SUP] 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7Woe to the world for the causes of sin. These stumbling blocks must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!…

 

[Roughsoul1991]

2 Timothy 4:6-8New International Version (NIV)

6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

What good fight, what race, kept faith? For what apon his departure?

Just another scripture telling us we are at battle everyday to remain in faith.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Hi,

Would you post scriptures when someone lose faith,there is a lose of salvation? Deny Christ like Peter lose his salvation? or fall on a false belief that he lose his salvation?

Thanks

Do we need to go over the scriptures warning us what can happen if we lose faith or fall away? We have scriptures that speak on apostasy and blasphemy which we know leads to loss of salvation. This is why we have warnings that speak on deliberate sin and beware of false teachers, trials, tribulations and evil tactics of satin that all can lead and has led to falling away, apostasy, and blasphemy

 

[mailmandan]

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Verse 8 is saying the message was already in the heart meaning they wasnt saved until they acted in faith and believed it to be true.

17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

In the very next verse contridicts your belief saying these people heard the message and all day long God held out his hands to them but they chose not to follow.
If your belief is true off of this verse then anyone who heard the message would act in faith and respond to it.

18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”
19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”[j]
20 And Isaiah boldly says,

“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”[k]
21 But concerning Israel he says,

“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.”[l]

We must first hear the word (as you said, the message is heard through the word about Christ) before we can truly believe and be saved. Just because people hear the message about Christ through the word does not automatically mean that they will act in faith and respond to it. Romans 10:13 - for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”

Also, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth he confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Basically if it is different levels of condemnation and salvation then you are promoting the elect chosen belief held by Calvinism

Does that make you Armenian?

Lets strip making this an Armenian vs Calvinism debate,. And try to actually see what others are saying.. Instead of putting their words through Calvinist/Armenian blinders.

it would be so much easier,. And I believe a lot more peaceful, and understanding of what others are saying.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are right about Rom 12:3 being after salvation.

I do not believe that we are forced to follow God. It is a choice that can be rejected. I do believe that God gives everyone the opportunity to make that choice at some time in their natural lives. And I think that without being given a measure of faith we would not be able to exercise that choice.

People saved by God freely chose to trust God and do the works.

Because they are grateful for what God did for them,. They want to share that love.

we love (do good works) because God first loved us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of course. I thinks its just a conviction of us to want to teach truth and lead people in the right direction. Im very hard on myself and always searching for truth in everyones words.

I can be the same way, I think when we are hard like that, we come of condensending or judgmental.. We need to tone it back some.. Always good to have brothers or sisters who can keep us accountable and let us know when we get to judgmental.

 

[limey410]

We only have warnings of this not an actual scripture saying someone did lose salvation. And i never even spoke of Peter losing salvation so i do not see your last question being of importance to our debate. Peter was a great example of one who remains in faith.

1 Timothy 4:1-2Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

4 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, 2 through the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared.

Here is one warning that later in our times believers will fall from faith. But to answer your question we dont have a verse saying and this specific man lost his salvation. We only have scripture warning us and scripture prophecing believers will fall away.

Do you need more examples or was 1 Timothy 4:1-2 enough to get my point across?

My post 3721 also explains our foundation and teaching on these scriptures.

So we have "warnings" of loss of salvation, we have no one that "lost" salvation, yet I have a promise that He will never leave or forsake me, that my Salvation is sealed, and that I am in His hand, never to be removed. hmmmm, my leap of faith is surely less precarious than yours, but from your stated theology you like tentative rocky ground where God could say never mind at any given time.

 

[Grace777x70]

So we have "warnings" of loss of salvation, we have no one that "lost" salvation, yet I have a promise that He will never leave or forsake me, that my Salvation is sealed, and that I am in His hand, never to be removed. hmmmm, my leap of faith is surely less precarious than yours, but from your stated theology you like tentative rocky ground where God could say never mind at any given time.

Unfortunately what this type of a belief system creates is that - "We are our own savior by what we do or don't do."

Christ alone is the Savior and what He has already done. Salvation is then dependent on us and not really on Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

Warnings that living from the flesh ( which comes in many forms and not just the "biggie sins" that religion focuses on ) are needed but where the error is - IMO - is that they assume and interpret these warnings mean that people get kicked out of being in Christ because of the works of the flesh.

If that was the case - no one would be with the Lord because the flesh comes in many forms and all of them bring destruction of some sort in this life.

That although He is joined as one spirit with us 1 Cor. 6:17 - He will leave us and forsake us although He said the complete opposite. Heb. 13:5

Jesus Himself said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever. He is not a liar. John 14:16

 

[loveme1]

GOD forbid I offer up anything other than Faith in the Messiah. I call for the Messiah to advocate for me. GOD help me if believe my works could save me.

 

[JIMBO43]

GOD forbid I offer up anything other than Faith in the Messiah. I call for the Messiah to advocate for me. GOD help me if believe my works could save me.

You forgot about offering up sacrifices.. Such as prayer and communion of what ever you want to commune by..

also you could do some old acient traditions like offering some new grain from an harvest or you could go and do some anointing where you live..

The list of possibilities are endless what you could do and like you could just keep your faith bewteen you and God and live a quiet life but be a blessing for others and a strong Soldier ready to defend your buddies...

The question is tho if ya dont do any of this where is the fruits from those born of the first fruits ?..

The bible clearly warns that some people baring no fruits will wither away spiritually... now maybe they will become an unpure spirit who roams the land of ruin like satan..(AND YOULL BE ABLE TO SPOT THEM) or maybe they might be a spirit made pure by following Jesus daily... yup daily my friend as the lords prayer says Give us today are daily bread and our guidance..,, we must wonder why it is called daily.. Is it because we forget and switch and dont seek Guidance ?..

I think so its called pride and im ok Jack i can handle it... why should i have to knock seek and find as im it and i know the way and all that jazz.

No my frined you can not forget that mercy and Grace follow you as you follow the same..(daily)

How would mercy and Grace be if they saw you stoning holy people everyday calling them works based salvationists who will not inherit the Kingdom for believing that your Good works do matter come Judgement day...