Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

[eternally-gratefull]

What view am I trying to make it fit? The view that I have nothing good that God didn't give me?

I believe the same salvation was given me of god, I did not merit it

 

[Utah]

You cut her to pieces, very meanly, in two posts, Utah.
And you were the one who judged her by saying you have more faith in your little toe than she has in her entire body. So it sounds like you were the one calling her unchristian rather than the other way around.
You have brought some resentment from elsewhere because she has not treated you badly in here.
You should resolve it so as not to harm yourself but that's a decision you will have to make.

I said I have more faith, not that she had none.

Perhaps I should have used the term Christ-like qualities.

As far as outside resentment, none whatsoever. But thanks anyway.

 

[Utah]

I'm not indulging on personality traits. I am concerned about what you're resentment and anger is doing to you. And I used to be terrified to speak with her, but she has grown in love and humility and respect. You are not seeing that growth because your grudge is blinding you to it. You should forgive her. 70x7. For the sake of YOUR growth. I'm not indulging. I'm caring for you.

I have no grudge. I meet people where they are. That's the third and last time I will state that.

 

[Utah]

Your just an evil man there

I'm just warming up in the bullpen. Wait till the game actually starts.

Always great to see you, my brother. God bless, always.

 

[popeye]

acts 2;21 [FONT=&quot]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rev 3;[/FONT]20 [FONT=&quot]Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

So we see our part. We do infact CHOOSE to call on his name and open the door to let him in.


Now consider this;
Mat 22;[/FONT]3 [FONT=&quot]And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]8 [FONT=&quot]Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

See that? the master DID NOT CHOOSE them that came.,But the ones he did choose, CHOSE not to come.[/FONT]

 

[valiant]

acts 2;21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rev 3;20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

So we see our part. We do infact CHOOSE to call on his name and open the door to let him in.


Now consider this;
Mat 22;3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

See that? the master DID NOT CHOOSE them that came.,But the ones he did choose, CHOSE not to come.

election is like when a man approaches the narrow gate. He sees that 'whosoever will may come'. But when he looks back having entered through it he sees, 'chosen before the foundation of the world'.

 

[preacher4truth]

election is like when a man approaches the narrow gate. He sees that 'whosoever will may come'. But when he looks back having entered through it he sees, 'chosen before the foundation of the world'.

I hear that one a lot. Yet Scripture tells us this on this side of the gate, too. Many of us learn this truth after conversion.

For the record, election is not the meat of the Word. Many think it is, but such is not the case.

 

[preacher4truth]

This is because you don't understand what it is saying or your just making it fit your view, that verse is about Grace a gift from God, for any person through faith aka belief. I wonder how this got so confusing to folks..

Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

LPT:
For it is by grace you have been saved and this is not from yourselves, through faith it is the gift of God.

Actually the subject being referred to in Ephesians 2:8 is faith, not grace. Philippians 1:29 also proves it a gift, as well as Acts 3:16. Furthermore Ephesians 1:19 shows this faith is the same power that raised Christ from the dead, and that isn't innate, it's from and of God.

 

[popeye]

I have not been on this chat in 3 years but I felt heavily compelled in my heart to write this today.


I have always struggled to make sense of the predestination verses. (Romans 8: 29-30, Matthew 11:27, Psalm 65:4, Romans 9, etc.) To make sense of it I tried to think that God chose people to be saved based of knowing the future and seeing people choosing Him, hence the “foreknowing” but now I know how flawed that way of thinking is. In regards to free will I used to think how God made the way of salvation clear and just waited for us to accept like a gift. I now know how flawed that way of thinking is as well.


Yes, these predestination verses helped me to better understand but I still fought against it because I didn’t want to believe that God would choose some and not others. Ultimately I wanted to believe that I had a choice. How selfish and prideful I was to think that way.


It was not a verse about predestination that opened the door to the truth but actually verses about our utter depravity of sin:
Psalm 53:2-3
God looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.



I have read these verses before but about 1-2 years ago these verses really hit home to how sinful I really am. We always want to find some kind of good in us, some kind of tiny little ray of light (even if it’s the act of choosing God) and to show God saying, “Look, I did this! I chose You!”


Ultimately that is pride. It is us trying to believe that we are capable of goodness outside of Christ. In reality that is not possible. Even as Christians we are filled with sin: our actions, out thoughts, even our prayers are tainted with sin. There is no escape, no explaining away, and no changing it. We are filled with sin at all times.


In addition, because we are always filled with sin, our base nature is to reject anything that is of Christ. We were born into rebellion and live on in ultimate rebellion before becoming a Christian. It is impossible for anything in us to choose the salvation of Christ. No matter how free, wonderful, loving etc…..it is impossible. Our sin nature would never allow it. Evil would never choose its destruction which is Christ.


That is how I finally realized that predestination makes sense. Because it is literally the ONLY way that I would ever “choose” salvation. It is the Spirit of God that has given me the desire for Jesus, and it is His Spirit that has given me the power to “choose” Him.


Yes, at the age of eight, I remember making a conscience decision to accept His salvation through faith. I remember my fear of my sin and hell, desiring His love, of wanting a Father. I remember choosing Him. But I have come to realize that these desires for Him were not of myself but of His Spirit through me. I had no say in the matter.
Then how do I marriage the two facts that I consciously chose Him but also knowing that it is only God that would give me the desire to chose Him to begin with?


I don’t know. Any you know what? I am ok with that. I trust God that He knows how it works and that gives me peace. Confusion is not always a bad thing. Sometimes you just have to lay it at the feet of Jesus and say, “Lord, You know.”
There is song that I have found by a Christian rapper named Shai Linne called “Election”. I highly recommend you give it a listen as it explains Election/Predestination quite well. I know you might have heard how free will is like someone who is floating out at sea and salvation is God throwing a rope at us and all we have to do is grab it. There is a part of this song that explains how flawed that line of thinking is:


“Some people say that we were drowning in the ocean
Barely floating until God threw us the rope then
Our free will helped us as we groped
Our faith is the hand that grabbed the rope and God put us back in the boat
Nope! Without apology I deny that analogy
Reality- we were dead at the bottom of the sea
I was a swollen corpse with hope no more
Until Jehovah the LORD dove from the shore to the ocean floor
Yeah, I was a corpse and I smelled like it
I’ll keep it simple, why did God choose me? Because He felt like it!
He brought me out, not an act of my volition
Breathed life into my lungs and didn’t ask for my permission”


I was a corpse at the bottom of the ocean. I could not grab that rope nor would I ever want to even if I could.


Honestly, I so glad that I had no say in my salvation. How awful would it be that God had to depend on our choice? That is like stripping power out of God’s hands and placing it in ours. Knowing how utterly sinful and disgusting I am, I am so thankful that it could only be by the grace of God that I could ever be saved. Depending on myself to accomplish any type of good is horrifying because I know that I am not capable of producing any good at all outside of Christ.


Lord Jesus, thank You!


I apologize for this being so long haha. It was just on my heart all morning as I was cleaning the house.

That is how I finally realized that predestination makes sense. Because it is literally the ONLY way that I would ever “choose” salvation. It is the Spirit of God that has given me the desire for Jesus, and it is His Spirit that has given me the power to “choose” Him.


Yes, at the age of eight, I remember making a conscience decision to accept His salvation through faith. I remember my fear of my sin and hell, desiring His love, of wanting a Father. I remember choosing Him. But I have come to realize that these desires for Him were not of myself but of His Spirit through me. I had no say in the matter.
Then how do I marriage the two facts that I consciously chose Him but also knowing that it is only God that would give me the desire to chose Him to begin with?

So,you were predestined to accept salvation,or you were predestined to receive the choice?

Your view depends on several assumptions.

One that is obvious,is that you assume others do not have the same visitation.

Also,concerning the hardening of the heart,why are they hardening their heart (meaning humans that get witnessed to,yet reject salvation),if they are not predestined to even get saved?

 

[popeye]

election is like when a man approaches the narrow gate. He sees that 'whosoever will may come'. But when he looks back having entered through it he sees, 'chosen before the foundation of the world'.

Yes,all are chosen,but few choose

 

[popeye]

election is like when a man approaches the narrow gate. He sees that 'whosoever will may come'. But when he looks back having entered through it he sees, 'chosen before the foundation of the world'.

When I posted the "whosoever" verse,a good predestined comeback would be "well that "who" guy was predestined .
The possibilities to dodge and deflect are endless in the predestined dynamic.
It,along with OSAS are of the classic circular reasonings we humanoids create.

 

[popeye]

I hear that one a lot. Yet Scripture tells us this on this side of the gate, too. Many of us learn this truth after conversion.

For the record, election is not the meat of the Word. Many think it is, but such is not the case.

So the gate you came up to said "only the chosen,no others need apply"

Why would it need to say any such thing if the "non chosen" never see such a gate?

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

election is like when a man approaches the narrow gate. He sees that 'whosoever will may come'. But when he looks back having entered through it he sees, 'chosen before the foundation of the world'.

Yes,all are chosen,but few choose

So you think that when God chose us before the foundation of the world he chose everybody? That makes a mockery of Scripture. What are you afraid of? The truth?

Election and predestination are clearly taught in Scripture. It is the unwise who deny it.

From one whose name is written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world.

 

[popeye]

acts 2;21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rev 3;20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

So we see our part. We do infact CHOOSE to call on his name and open the door to let him in.


Now consider this;
Mat 22;3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

See that? the master DID NOT CHOOSE them that came.,But the ones he did choose, CHOSE not to come.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[popeye]

So you think that when God chose us before the foundation of the world he chose everybody? That makes a mockery of Scripture. What are you afraid of? The truth?

Election and predestination are clearly taught in Scripture. It is the unwise who deny it.

From one whose name is written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world.

I have no problem with election. I believe it wholeheartedly.

I have a problem with WHERE you guys take it into a one dimensional circular no mans land.

It is both. We are chosen,and we choose.

 

[valiant]

When I posted the "whosoever" verse,a good predestined comeback would be "well that "who" guy was predestined .
The possibilities to dodge and deflect are endless in the predestined dynamic.
It,along with OSAS are of the classic circular reasonings we humanoids create.

you mean that it doesn't fit your logic even though it is clearly taught in Scripture? I used to think like you, but I succumbed to the facts of Scripture.

 

[Johnny_B]

I can't agree, Because he can not make one alive who is still dead because of sin, The sin issue must be removed before one is made alive,, That is where the cross comes into play, And is called justification. ..



I disagree;



I said God showed grace, he would not give Israel the land untilt he sin of the Amorite was complete..

You want scripture (I thought this was well known. Sorry

Gen 15: . [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

Sodom and Gomorrah.

Gen 18: [SUP]26 [/SUP]So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then Abraham answered and said, “Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: [SUP]28 [/SUP]Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?”
So He said, “If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it.”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]And he spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose there should be forty found there?”
So He said, “I will not do it for the sake of forty.”
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?”
So He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he said, “Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?”
So He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty.”
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?”
And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.” [SUP]33 [/SUP]So the Lord went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.


again, I thought this was a well known story.. Forgive me

I don't see anything about any Ameritech people, where are those Scriptures talking about those people.

By what stated about being made alive, means you don't believe these Scripture. Ephesians 2:4-5 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"

Brother we are agreeing on believing and faith, where we disagree is to how we are able to believe or receive or have faith. That's why I said you got two out of three right, because we agree on those.

 

[valiant]

I have no problem with election. I believe it wholeheartedly.

I have a problem with WHERE you guys take it into a one dimensional circular no mans land.

who are 'you guys'? I follow no human teaching. I follow the Scriptures wherever they may lead me.

It is both. We are chosen,and we choose.

We choose because we were first chosen.

 

[Johnny_B]

acts 2;21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rev 3;20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

So we see our part. We do infact CHOOSE to call on his name and open the door to let him in.


Now consider this;
Mat 22;3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

See that? the master DID NOT CHOOSE them that came.,But the ones he did choose, CHOSE not to come.

How does bidden mean chose? It doesn't it means invited, (ESV) come on Brother, those that were invited were not worthy (the Jews). Also notice the servant did not invite anyone he gathered together all he could find, the good and the bad (the Gentiles). Plus you know this is about the Jews rejecting Christ and Him turning to the Gentiles in the context of the marriage supper of the Lamb, the reason I know you know this is because anyone that studies prophecy like you have has looked into the meaning of this parable.

 

[PeterJens]

I believe the same salvation was given me of god, I did not merit it

Some appear to hate, and I mean hate this idea God likes the righteous.

Job is a long book explaining that this is true, that God desires that people
are righteous and walk in His ways.

The interesting flip side of choosing to believe in Christ is the Lord choosing
to respond to those who believe in Him. Belief and transformation is merit,
it is a promise the Lord makes. Jonah preached judgement was coming,
Nineveh repented and the Lord did not judge them. They earnt there pardon
by repenting and remorse.

This is Gods promise, repent and believe, and you will be saved.

But the conviction to believe is a gift of God. If God did not back up the idea
how would we ever come to this conviction? It is why I am always humble,
and always know I know less than I should, and the Lord does far more than
I can imagine. Praise the Lord.