You honestly admit in one of your other posts that the way the sentence is constructed, it fits perfectly with my view. In order to not fit with my view, (which is based on that sentence, along with many others), the sentence has to be constructed differently. You, yourself said that you wish it had been constructed differently. But if I do not have to reconstruct it to perfectly fit my view, maybe my view came FROM the verse. Just a thought.
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Our only difference on this particular matter is that you think your faith comes from yourself and I think it comes from God.
There is a verse I can't find for some reason. It says something like...before the coming of this faith, we were under the law until the faith that was to come to us was revealed. And when I see my faith slipping or wavering, I call to Him. He answers me. I don't think He would do that if I was to find that power to believe within myself. I think He would say the faith part comes from me so why am I asking Him for help with something that is my part and that comes from me.
Anyway, whether you think your faith comes from yourself or whether you think it comes from God, what matters is that you have it. And if you have it and it is increasing, you'll be okay.
There is a verse I can't find for some reason. It says something like...before the coming of this faith, we were under the law until the faith that was to come to us was revealed. And when I see my faith slipping or wavering, I call to Him. He answers me. I don't think He would do that if I was to find that power to believe within myself. I think He would say the faith part comes from me so why am I asking Him for help with something that is my part and that comes from me.
Anyway, whether you think your faith comes from yourself or whether you think it comes from God, what matters is that you have it. And if you have it and it is increasing, you'll be okay.
W
You believe in double election. Just that you have never thought about any farther than the theology you are defending.
You were born a sinner and elected to condemnation.
Now you claim that you were elected to salvation.
That's double election.
Your in a conundrum if really stop and think about it.
Are you claiming that you were not born a sinner and condemned?
You were born a sinner and elected to condemnation.
Now you claim that you were elected to salvation.
That's double election.
Your in a conundrum if really stop and think about it.
Are you claiming that you were not born a sinner and condemned?
I agree with what you say here. It's like the story of the blind men and the elephant. To see (or feel) the one side only gives a skewed view of what it has to be. You must see all of it. To overemphasize one side to the exclusion of the other side is what this debating is usually doing. Like...one man will say, no, God is kind. Another will say, no, God is severe. But both are right. But they become wrong if they insist ONLY on the one side of it. And there is a lot of insisting on one side of a matter to the exclusion of the other side of the matter.
I guess you could argue that Paul could have refused Jesus when he encountered Him on that road...but I don't think that's how encountering God works. I think the knee just bows when one encounters God. Some men have said they could not stand and were as if they had fainted until He gave them strength and put them on their feet. I know I myself couldn't stand. I thought I would never be able to get up and that my husband would soon come home and call the men in the white coats to come and get me because I was just shattered man. There wasn't even an attempt to get up. I knew I couldn't.
My translation says it much differently. It doesn't say all are chosen. It doesn't even say all are called. It says many are called but few are chosen. It could just be my translation. There very well could be one that says all are chosen. Wouldn't make sense to me personally to say all are chosen but few are chosen...but I can't state for a fact that no translation has it that way.
Never saw that one in Scripture. I'm also aware that salvation isn't via choice.
Anyhow, please share the passage that says all are chosen. And that few choose. Maybe its apocryphal. Maybe it's in the Pelagian version. I don't know, I've never seen it in Scripture.
Are you just re-writing the narrative to how you like it?
Anyhow, please share the passage that says all are chosen. And that few choose. Maybe its apocryphal. Maybe it's in the Pelagian version. I don't know, I've never seen it in Scripture.
Are you just re-writing the narrative to how you like it?
Matthew 22:14
For many are called — Nor imagine, (as if our Lord had said,) that this will be the case of one alone; for though it be a dreadful truth, yet I must say, that even the greatest part of those to whom the gospel is offered, will either openly reject or secretly disobey it; and while indeed many are called to the gospel-feast, it will be manifest by their disregarding it, there are but few chosen in such a sense as finally to partake of its blessings. In short, many hear, few believe: many are members of the visible, but few of the invisible church.
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Benson commentary
It relates into the parable
For many are called — Nor imagine, (as if our Lord had said,) that this will be the case of one alone; for though it be a dreadful truth, yet I must say, that even the greatest part of those to whom the gospel is offered, will either openly reject or secretly disobey it; and while indeed many are called to the gospel-feast, it will be manifest by their disregarding it, there are but few chosen in such a sense as finally to partake of its blessings. In short, many hear, few believe: many are members of the visible, but few of the invisible church.
--
Benson commentary
It relates into the parable
Here is my study on time and whay predestined means
Time series -- this arrangement of past, present and future -- isn't simply the way life comes to us but is the way all things really exist. We tend to assume that the whole universe and God Himself are always moving on from a past to a future just as we are. But many learned men don't agree with that. I think it was the Theologians who first started the idea that some things are not in Time at all. Later, the Philosophers took it over. And now some of the scientists are doing the same.
Almost certainly God is not in Time. His life doesn't consist of moments following one another. If a million people are praying to Him at ten-thirty tonight, He hasn't got to listen to them all in that one little snippet which we call "ten-thirty." Ten-thirty, and every other moment from the beginning to the end of the world, is always the Present for Him. If you like to put it that way, He has infinity in which to listen to the split second of prayer put up by a pilot as his plane crashes in flames.
That's difficult, I know. Can I try to give something, not the same, but a bit like it. Suppose I'm writing a novel. I write "Mary laid down her book; next moment came a knock at the door." For Mary, who's got to live in the imaginary time of the story, there's no interval between putting down the book and hearing the knock. But I, her creator, between writing the first part of that sentence and the second, may have gone out for an hour's walk and spent the whole hour thinking about Mary. I know that's not a perfect example, but it may just give a glimpse of what I mean. The point I want to drive home is that God has infinite attention, infinite leisure to spare for each one of us. He doesn't have to take us in the line. You're as much alone with Him as if you were the only thing He'd ever created.
C.S. Lewis
To me this explanation deeply pictures God as the reader of your life story. God isnt all controlling but limits his power to respect our free will. God can see your life birth to death. Not saying God doesnt ever intervene in our lives because he does. God wont stop you from drinking but your liver will. God may persuade you to stop with all his controlled capabilities but ultimately wont force you.
And so God can see if your death was from drinking but God also can see you make a decision today to stop. Therfore changing your story as he reads it. But ultimately God can see all.
To me this is how if all are called to be saved he predestinedly knows who will be written in the book of life. Not choosing a select group but he can already see the deaths of everyone.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Time series -- this arrangement of past, present and future -- isn't simply the way life comes to us but is the way all things really exist. We tend to assume that the whole universe and God Himself are always moving on from a past to a future just as we are. But many learned men don't agree with that. I think it was the Theologians who first started the idea that some things are not in Time at all. Later, the Philosophers took it over. And now some of the scientists are doing the same.
Almost certainly God is not in Time. His life doesn't consist of moments following one another. If a million people are praying to Him at ten-thirty tonight, He hasn't got to listen to them all in that one little snippet which we call "ten-thirty." Ten-thirty, and every other moment from the beginning to the end of the world, is always the Present for Him. If you like to put it that way, He has infinity in which to listen to the split second of prayer put up by a pilot as his plane crashes in flames.
That's difficult, I know. Can I try to give something, not the same, but a bit like it. Suppose I'm writing a novel. I write "Mary laid down her book; next moment came a knock at the door." For Mary, who's got to live in the imaginary time of the story, there's no interval between putting down the book and hearing the knock. But I, her creator, between writing the first part of that sentence and the second, may have gone out for an hour's walk and spent the whole hour thinking about Mary. I know that's not a perfect example, but it may just give a glimpse of what I mean. The point I want to drive home is that God has infinite attention, infinite leisure to spare for each one of us. He doesn't have to take us in the line. You're as much alone with Him as if you were the only thing He'd ever created.
C.S. Lewis
To me this explanation deeply pictures God as the reader of your life story. God isnt all controlling but limits his power to respect our free will. God can see your life birth to death. Not saying God doesnt ever intervene in our lives because he does. God wont stop you from drinking but your liver will. God may persuade you to stop with all his controlled capabilities but ultimately wont force you.
And so God can see if your death was from drinking but God also can see you make a decision today to stop. Therfore changing your story as he reads it. But ultimately God can see all.
To me this is how if all are called to be saved he predestinedly knows who will be written in the book of life. Not choosing a select group but he can already see the deaths of everyone.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
P
Actually the subject being referred to in Ephesians 2:8 is faith, not grace. Philippians 1:29 also proves it a gift, as well as Acts 3:16. Furthermore Ephesians 1:19 shows this faith is the same power that raised Christ from the dead, and that isn't innate, it's from and of God.
[/FONT][FONT="]6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
No,it speaks of salvation,with, 'grace' ,'faith', and 'gifts' as components in its working.[/FONT]
P
No, he showed you his son.And yes he chose to show you and he did in fact choose you. None the less ,he showed you his son,as he would anyone READY. They just aren't ready,not that they are not chosen and you are.
I can say all of that. I can include your assertions into the picture,and they are a part,NOT the whole picture
I can say all of that. I can include your assertions into the picture,and they are a part,NOT the whole picture
P
We agree to a point. But not on the exclusions you assert are not there.
Acts 16;28 [FONT="]But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.[/FONT][FONT="]29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,[/FONT]
[FONT="]30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?[/FONT]
[FONT="]31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.[/FONT]
[FONT="]32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.[/FONT]
[FONT="]33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.[/FONT]
[FONT="]34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.[/FONT]
"....What Must I do...."
predestination decipher time. "nothing,absolutely nothing you can do. We will have to see if you are one of the chosen,and get back to you. You could be wasting our time"
Acts 16;28 [FONT="]But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.[/FONT][FONT="]29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,[/FONT]
[FONT="]30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?[/FONT]
[FONT="]31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.[/FONT]
[FONT="]32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.[/FONT]
[FONT="]33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.[/FONT]
[FONT="]34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.[/FONT]
"....What Must I do...."
predestination decipher time. "nothing,absolutely nothing you can do. We will have to see if you are one of the chosen,and get back to you. You could be wasting our time"