TRIBULATION LIE

[dcontroversal]

THE COMING of THE LORD (for HIS SAINTS) is quite a different thing than the DAY of THE LORD (for the unexpected and the unbelievers)

Actually, Paul and Peter tie all three days together as one....the days being, the Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ and the Day of God

 

[miknik5]

Actually, Paul and Peter tie all three days together as one....the days being, the Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ and the Day of God

Of course!

just as THE HOLY SPIRIT, the SPIRIT of GOD, THE SPIRIT of CHRIST are ONE and synonymous

 

[Ahwatukee]

read what is written about the false christ and false prophet
When these two are cast into the lake of fire, they are identified as such
"BOTH" were cast alive into the lake of fire

they are not identified as a mass group of people or an organization

Absolutely correct! For the scripture says, "the [two of them] were cast [alive] into the lake of fire. This is definitely referring to two persons. Another proof is the fact that they are both thrown alive into the lake of fire.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Mr valiant,
if the 1000 year reign is current then Satan is bound up?
and if Satan is bound up, Christ would not have told us to pray that GOD keep us from the evil one nor would CHRIST have forewarned the church to "overcome" since Satan will cast some of us in prison

Good day miknik5, Just FYI (If you haven't already figured it out) you are debating with a preterist. They don't believe in a literal thousand years, even though is repeats the words "a thousand years" six times. It is very difficult to say the least to debate a preterist with scripture and that because they spiritualize it or allegorize it. To them, all end-time events have found fulfillment in the past. Boy are they going to have a rude awakening.

 

[popeye]

Exactly!

That is what I am saying.

Did I not say that?



Do the Gates of Hell still exist? Are people still passing through them?

Yes every day people go there.

What that verse is saying is that we kick them down. We are not passive. We go after the kingdom of darkness. Intercessors do it 24/7. The devil's kingdom suffers do to the intercessors,and warrior believers. We go after those trapped in that kingdom.

 

[popeye]

Good day miknik5, Just FYI (If you haven't already figured it out) you are debating with a preterist. They don't believe in a literal thousand years, even though is repeats the words "a thousand years" six times. It is very difficult to say the least to debate a preterist with scripture and that because they spiritualize it or allegorize it. To them, all end-time events have found fulfillment in the past. Boy are they going to have a rude awakening.

Yep,I rarely address them. I got saved in a preterist church. I was a brand new believer,and found myself getting "straightened out" by the pastor. Somehow I knew he was wrong. I did my own research,and saw his deal was impossible. I can not believe anyone could take that deal seriously.

 

[valiant]

Mr valiant,
if the 1000 year reign is current then Satan is bound up?
and if Satan is bound up, Christ would not have told us to pray that GOD keep us from the evil one nor would CHRIST have forewarned the church to "overcome" since Satan will cast some of us in prison

Satan is bound up until Rev 9.1-11. He was bound by Christ Himself (Matt 12.29). That cannot be denied. What the binding of Satan involves is another matter. He is held back by 'him that restrains'.

 

[dcontroversal]

Satan is bound up until Rev 9.1-11. He was bound by Christ Himself (Matt 12.29). That cannot be denied. What the binding of Satan involves is another matter. He is held back by 'him that restrains'.

Peter must have missed your memo....He Satan as a roaring lion walks about seeking whom he may devour.....

 

[valiant]

Good day miknik5, Just FYI (If you haven't already figured it out) you are debating with a preterist.

if you mean me you are totally wrong. I am not a preterist. But I expect slurs from you. You are unable to debate freely, trapped in your ideas of a millennium,

They don't believe in a literal thousand years, even though is repeats the words "a thousand years" six times. I

if you read the OT with blinkers off you will discover that 'a thousand' means a large indetermined number, eg a thousand generations. It is rarely if ever used literally.

it is very difficult to say the least to debate a preterist with scripture and that because they spiritualize it or allegorize it.

I wouldn't know about a preterist, But much of Scripture IS not to be taken literally. And that includes much of Revelation as John made clear at the beginning

To them, all end-time events have found fulfillment in the past. Boy are they going to have a rude awakening.

as I do not hold that view I would expect an apology from a decent person.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

Satan is bound up until Rev 9.1-11. He was bound by Christ Himself (Matt 12.29). That cannot be denied. What the binding of Satan involves is another matter. He is held back by 'him that restrains'.

Peter must have missed your memo....He Satan as a roaring lion walks about seeking whom he may devour.....

No, peter saw it. any intelligent person would realise that he meant that Satan was walking around in his minions, especially the Romans and their ilk

 

[miknik5]

So He came on the clouds of Heaven (to the throne of God) after His resurrection. The chief priests 'saw it'. They were aware that it had happened even if they would not admit it,



a totally different event, which will occur at the end.



But He had not come visibly. This visible coming was at the end of time.,



No they will see 'these things' i.e. the destruction of Jerusalem (when shall 'these things' be?,

I just want to remind you of something else that you need to re-review?

please tell me when HE "came to the throne of GOD?

but please re-review revelation 12

do you admit that HE was "snatched up to HIS THRONE and GOD from the very beginning and before HIS resurrection?

 

[valiant]

I just want to remind you of something else that you need to re-review?

please tell me when HE "came to the throne of GOD?

but please re-review revelation 12

do you admit that HE was "snatched up to HIS THRONE and GOD from the very beginning and before HIS resurrection?

NO ............

 

[dcontroversal]

No, peter saw it. any intelligent person would realise that he meant that Satan was walking around in his minions, especially the Romans and their ilk

That is not what Peter said and the bible is clear enough to make distinctions between Satan and those who follow Satan.....so...consistency with the use of words and verbiage prove that your statement does not bear out.....He said...SATAN as a roaring LION.........He used a PROPER NAME....not an allusion to evil in general!

 

[miknik5]

The 1000 year (a long unspecified period of time) reign is already occurring

Satan is bound up until Rev 9.1-11. He was bound by Christ Himself (Matt 12.29). That cannot be denied. What the binding of Satan involves is another matter. He is held back by 'him that restrains'.

So we are currently in the 1000 year reign. Therefore there is no false prophet and false Christ to come?

No "dragon" who will give his power to the beast
and let me be sure of what you are saying, since you say we are currently in the 1000 year reign (and satan is bound)than Satan should have NO POWER over the saints

Correct?

 

[valiant]

That is not what Peter said and the bible is clear enough to make distinctions between Satan and those who follow Satan.....so...consistency with the use of words and verbiage prove that your statement does not bear out.....He said...SATAN as a roaring LION.........He used a PROPER NAME....not an allusion to evil in general!

you may believe that if you wish. I believe the obvious truth

 

[dcontroversal]

you may believe that if you wish. I believe the obvious truth

No worries, I will mate!

 

[valiant]

No "dragon" who will give his power to the beast
and let me be sure of what you are saying, since you say we are currently in the 1000 year reign (and satan is bound)than Satan should have NO POWER over the saints

Correct?

Satan is restrained and bound, he is not totally disempowered. If he were not restrained in some way we would not stand a chance.

 

[miknik5]

Satan has power over the flesh of all men but he has NO POWER over SPIRIT/spirit for those who are in CHRIST JESUS

Now when the 1000 year reign ACTUALLY does come, and Satan actually is bound, he will have no power over either flesh or spirit regardless

and that 1000 year reign will be a temporary temporal period of peace before Satan is let loose once again

And do you know what this will reveal when he is let loose, that men, during a time of peace when satan had no power to do anything, men who will rebel will have no one to blame their iniquity on but themselves

 

[miknik5]

Satan is restrained and bound, he is not totally disempowered. If he were not restrained in some way we would not stand a chance.

Yes sir we know that
which is why we are back to 2 Thessalonians 2

"when HE who holds all things back is taken out of the way"

while THE HOLY SPIRIT is in the world, HE convicts the world of sin

But when HE is taken out of the world, there will be no one to temporary convict the world of sin

and then the man of sin will be revealed and evil will have full reign

 

[AbdiyEL]

Good evening AbdiyEL,



"The great day of the Lordis near—near and coming quickly." - Zephaniah 1:14

"Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand—a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such as never was in ancient times nor ever will be in ages to come." - Joel 2:1-2

"Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp,every heart will melt with fear. Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame." - Isaiah 13:6-8

"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place." - Rev.1:1

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." - Rev.1:3

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

The day of the Lord spoken of by the OT prophets, as well as in the book of Revelation, are referring to the same time of God's wrath against mankind, also referred to as "the hour of trial" and "the great day." This time of God's coming wrath is neither an hour nor a day in length, but is a phrase designating a period of time in which God's wrath will take place.

Regarding this time of wrath, what both the OT prophets and the book of Revelation have in common, is that this time of wrath, the day of the Lord is referred to as "soon taking place" and "the time is near." Now, being that the day of the Lord, the wrath of God has yet to take place, it should move the reader to reconsider the meaning of those phrases, for it certainly couldn't be referring to our understanding of being either a day, week, month or year away. For 2800 years or so have passed since making reference to that day being near or shortly to take place.

Since the gathering of the church is apart of the day of the Lord and in fact what initiates it, the reference to being near is synonymous with the Lord's return which has always been imminent for both the OT prophets and the apostles. Therefore, the meaning of "the day of the Lord" is that it is always near, about to happen, on the horizon, looming, in the workings, etc. The phrase "is near" or "is close at hand" is referring to the day of the Lord, the time period of God's wrath, as always being imminent.

The information contained in the book of Revelation regarding the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are a detailed account of the day of the Lord, the wrath of God. 2800 years later we are still saying that the day of the Lord is near, about to take place. The only difference between believers today vs. the OT prophets and the apostles, is that we can say with certainty that the day of the Lord is approaching quickly and that because we are seeing all of the signs. We are seeing the stage being set for that time of God's wrath and the reign of the antichirst.



The word "Rapture" is from the Latin "Rapio" which has the same meaning of the Greek word "harpazo" which is the word used in 1 Thes.4:16:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be [caught up] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Harpazo/Rapio is defined as "properly to seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively, to seize, catch up, snatch away."

Harpazo is the same word used when Paul said that he was "caught up" to the third heaven. And is the same word used when Philip was "snatched away" from the Eunuch. It is also the same word used to describe the male child of Rev.12:5 being "caught up" to God and to his throne. So yes, the word is in deed there in the scripture.

In reference to 1 Thes.4:16-17, based on the rest of the context, the meaning is that when the Lord apppears, believers will be caught up to meet Christ in the air in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 where the Lord will then take the entire group back to the Father's house (heaven).

It is true that the term "day of the Lord" can refer to more than one thing depending on the context of what you are reading. But for sure the term does refer to the second coming of the Messiah. In 1Thessalonians 4:16-17 are definitely talking about the second coming of Messiah, and we agree that at that time the saints will be caught up into the air to meet Him, but the verses in question never say that we will go to heaven, simply that we will always be with Him, it doesn't say where. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 does not explain what happens after we are caught up into the air, but the prophet Zechariah does.

Zechariah 14:1-5
1. Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3. Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
5. Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.

the term "day of the lord" here is also speaking of the scond coming of Messiah. Notice that at that time Zechariah tells us He will come down, set His feet on the mount of Olives, it will split making a valley. And at this point Messiah will come down and "His saints with Him". 1 Thessalonians tells us that when Messiah returns the saints will be caught up into the air to meet Yahushua, the dead in Messiah first then those who are still alive, Zechariah tells us that after that Yahushau will come down on Jerusalem, with us who had just met Him in the air, (His saints)to begin His reign on earth. Who else could Zechariah be refering to as "saints" if not us? If you believe that the saints will be going to and living in Heaven you will need to provide Scripture to prove it brother.