TRIBULATION LIE

[GaryA]

Matthew 24:

[SUP]15[/SUP] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ( whoso readeth, let him understand: ) [SUP]16[/SUP] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: [SUP]17[/SUP] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: [SUP]18[/SUP] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. [SUP]19[/SUP] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! [SUP]20[/SUP] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: [SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22[/SUP] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mark 13:

[SUP]14[/SUP] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, ( let him that readeth understand, ) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: [SUP]15[/SUP] And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: [SUP]16[/SUP] And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. [SUP]17[/SUP] But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! [SUP]18[/SUP] And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. [SUP]19[/SUP] For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. [SUP]20[/SUP] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Luke 21:

[SUP]20[/SUP] And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. [SUP]21[/SUP] Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. [SUP]22[/SUP] For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [SUP]23[/SUP] But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. [SUP]24[/SUP] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


All three of these passages are talking about the-very-same-exact-thing.

The Matthew, Mark, and Luke accounts of the Olivet Discourse are just that - three accounts of the-very-same-exact-thing. Jesus did not give Matthew one discourse, Mark another, and Luke another...

Believe it!

 

[valiant]

Valiant,,,, easy there, your Hatred is showing....for all to see.

don't be silly.

The readers of the post can see all three.. One, who was brave enough to ask a relevant question and the answer from one who believes:" a literal nation Israel to be restored in the future, a literal Kingdom, a literal tribulation and a literal return of the Lord and a Literal Rapture."

and

the third person, who does not agree with any of the points answered within the post and has what appears to be a deep seated hatred for God's Chosen people... Israel.

I don't agree with your millennial tripe, As to the rest, Absolute nonsense

You, the reader has a choice to make here...Will it be a literal, futurist, fundalmentalist interpretation which means:

Literally reading and interpreting the WORD of GOD as it is written

no never.it means accepting the views of men like darby and Newton

that includes interpreting symbols when needed, using the SAME hermeneutics throughout the whole book, interpretation of sentence structure(s) and literal interpretation of some 200 other figures of speech the Bible provides the reader with from Genesis 1 through Revelation 22 and more.

and you get it absolutely right of course LOL LOL

As far as the definition of a preterist (full or partial). I am sure there are plentiful sites on you-tube and other sites that will gladly inform you of the Doctrine associated with this type of eschatology.

I am well aware of what preterism and part preterism are thank you. And the latter is interpreting correctly

 

[valiant]

Pay attention to History but do not use it as preterist do.... to make the Bible say what they want it to. History is a useful tool as are some noncononical Books (i.e Enoch, Jasher,etc.). I think if you are serious, you are looking in the right direction. Rem.

A pity you do not do so.

The AoD will happen in the Future.

The abomination of desolation as spoken of by Jesus HAS happened

This was foretold in the OT as well as the NT....

the Abomination of desolation in Daniel happened even earlier.

We know that the population of Israel at the time of the start of the "Great Tribulation" (Last Half of Daniels 70th week) will be cut by 2/3. Yes that many will die. WWII saw only 1/3 of the Jewish population dies (6 million).

That has occurred from 70 ad onwards in the great tribulation on the Jews,

As far as the rest of the world, From the time gap after the Rapture until the end of the tribulations (Armageddon), I would say roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of the population will die.

we are to take your word for it? Certainly it is not in Scripture.

Rem..the Church will be raptured (estimated at 1/3 the population of America,GB and other countries will only be around 4-500 million. The Martyred Saints and the those that the 144,000 bring on board will be in the billions. That leave earth dwellers. Approx. 13/ of them will Die. during this time. Leaving one a Remnant of Israel and a Remnant of Gentiles who live through Daniel's 70th week. They will repopulate the earth for the Millennium to come.

Dream on,

For further Study, I suggest Daniel from Beginning to end.

you should read my commentary on it you would learn something,

 

[Jimbone]

And yes, JimBone, you were more intent on judging me as a "know it all"

Well that was how I feel you come off honestly, but it is not the best way to try to get a point across to you so I apologize. I also think you STILL are confused about me because I have never said we shouldn't judge, I don't believe Jesus told us "never judge anyone ever for any reason". Of course ultimate judgement is for Jesus alone, but we have to live day to day making constant judgement about everything, we have to otherwise we could only stand there doing nothing. So honestly I think it is perfactly fine for me to read through your comments, seeing you are arguing in just about every one of them trying to "teach" people, and come to the conclusion you come off like a "know it all". You have not once even told me what you were correcting me on. You seem caught up in so many conflicts, or I'll just say "conversations" that you can't even keep them straight and also seem so scatterbrained it's impossible to have a rational conversation with you. Again YOU came at me first, and still can't tell me what you were correcting me on. Please can you please answer that for me?

Ok in comment 279 and 280 I was responding to Ahwatukee and only to him, I was saying it is better and more effective to discuss these things in love and not take shots at each other, then in comment 284 you jumped in to correct and teach me. What EXACTLY were you disagreeing with and correcting me on? Is is better to fight endlessly? Please answer that 1 question for me, or tell me you misunderstood what I was saying, because it seemed to me you were just trying to be a "know it all" and correct me on something I wasn't talking about..

 

[miknik5]

Jim,

i guess i was "correcting" you on the danger of listening to those who say "peace peace...then comes destruction

people who are forgetting that while they may be believers and as such, have fled and are already in THE REFUGE which GOD has provided in HIS SON, there are many who are listening in to this conversation (and though they may not be a part of the back and forth exchange) who haven't fled to THE REFUGE and don't even realize the need to

Tou addressed another poster. But your post came out of no where after much more discussion has occurred. And I thought you were becoming uncomfortable with my questioning the poster. And when you replied that this shouldn't separate those in the BODY, yes, I agree


But as I said, not all are in THE BODY and they also should be made aware of what is supported by HIS WORD from what isn't

I don't know your stance nor do you have to tell ne
hoqver, I believe HE will come a second time

and at that time, not as THE LAMB

 

[miknik5]

Thank you, Jim for taking the time to post to me

I think you also misjudged me

 

[Jimbone]

Jim,

i guess i was "correcting" you on the danger of listening to those who say "peace peace...then comes destruction

people who are forgetting that while they may be believers and as such, have fled and are already in THE REFUGE which GOD has provided in HIS SON, there are many who are listening in to this conversation (and though they may not be a part of the back and forth exchange) who haven't fled to THE REFUGE and don't even realize the need to

Tou addressed another poster. But your post came out of no where after much more discussion has occurred. And I thought you were becoming uncomfortable with my questioning the poster. And when you replied that this shouldn't separate those in the BODY, yes, I agree


But as I said, not all are in THE BODY and they also should be made aware of what is supported by HIS WORD from what isn't

I don't know your stance nor do you have to tell ne
hoqver, I believe HE will come a second time

and at that time, not as THE LAMB

I do agree with that, and I wasn't saying "peace peace" at the cost of truth. I would never say that. I agree with you that we should always speak truth no matter who gets upset. You are also correct, and I think this is where I misunderstood where you were coming from. That first comment was not towards you, or what you and Valiant where talking about at all. I see where the misunderstanding came in now.

My ONLY point in that comment, and this whole time, was that we as Christians (and I believe a truly saved soul could believe different things in regard to the timing of the rapture) should come together in love and respect to discuss our different beliefs in these matter, and that not only should we not call each other names, but it is also VASTLY less effective to just argue and fight.

So I am sorry for my half of this misunderstanding, and see what you meant now, only I wasn't addressing you at all with that comment at that point.

Thank you for answering me and helping to clear that up. Sorry if I was too hash towards you. I hope you have a great weekend. Oh yea, I 100% without a doubt believe Jesus is coming back a 2nd time.

 

[miknik5]

I do agree with that, and I wasn't saying "peace peace" at the cost of truth. I would never say that. I agree with you that we should always speak truth no matter who gets upset. You are also correct, and I think this is where I misunderstood where you were coming from. That first comment was not towards you, or what you and Valiant where talking about at all. I see where the misunderstanding came in now.

My ONLY point in that comment, and this whole time, was that we as Christians (and I believe a truly saved soul could believe different things in regard to the timing of the rapture) should come together in love and respect to discuss our different beliefs in these matter, and that not only should we not call each other names, but it is also VASTLY less effective to just argue and fight.

So I am sorry for my half of this misunderstanding, and see what you meant now, only I wasn't addressing you at all with that comment at that point.

Sorry if I was too hash towards you. I hope you have a great weekend. Oh yea, I 100% without a doubt believe Jesus is coming back a 2nd time.

Thank you, Jim for reaching out and clearing up what you meant. Thank you for hearing me out and I'm glad that we can move forward from here restored

You also have a great weekend
Sorry for my passion I know I may come across too strong. I don't mean to. However when something is not scripturally lining up, it bothers me. It has to line up and it has to agree with all of HIS WORD or I can't accept it

And I don't know how anyone else can


Thank you Jim for speaking with me

 

[GaryA]

... claim, in effect, to have developed an interpretation that you and you alone can explain and that only you can understand.

I really wish people would stop saying crap like this...

If I thought I was the only one who could understand my view [ of whatever ], why would I bother to try to explain it???

On the contrary, I do believe other people are very capable of understanding it -- which is why I think it is a worthy effort to try to explain it.

 

[GaryA]

No - the 'Wrath of God' is the 'Vials'; and, does not include the 'Trumpets'.


This is a list of prophetic events - in order of occurance:

Abomination Of Desolation
Great Tribulation
Trumpet 1
Trumpet 2
Trumpet 3
Trumpet 4
Trumpet 5
Trumpet 6
Heaven / Temple Opened
JESUS
Trumpet 7
Resurrection & Rapture
Pre-Wrath
Vial 1
Vial 2
Vial 3
Vial 4
Vial 5
Vial 6
Armageddon
Vial 7
Marriage Supper


The span of time that covers all of what is described in the 'opening' of the 6th seal runs from 'Trumpet 1' to 'Vial 7'.

Using the same list of prophetic events - ( in order of occurance ) :

Abomination Of Desolation
Great Tribulation
Trumpet 1
Trumpet 2
Trumpet 3
Trumpet 4
Trumpet 5
Trumpet 6
Heaven / Temple Opened
JESUS
Trumpet 7
Resurrection & Rapture
Pre-Wrath
Vial 1
Vial 2
Vial 3
Vial 4
Vial 5
Vial 6
Armageddon
Vial 7
Marriage Supper


The 'Wrath of God' runs from 'Vial 1' to 'Vial 7'.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Using the same list of prophetic events - ( in order of occurance ) :

Abomination Of Desolation
Great Tribulation
Trumpet 1
Trumpet 2
Trumpet 3
Trumpet 4
Trumpet 5
Trumpet 6
Heaven / Temple Opened
JESUS
Trumpet 7
Resurrection & Rapture
Pre-Wrath
Vial 1
Vial 2
Vial 3
Vial 4
Vial 5
Vial 6
Armageddon
Vial 7
Marriage Supper


The 'Wrath of God' runs from 'Vial 1' to 'Vial 7'.

And now, here is the true chronological order of events, exactly the way that God arranged them in his word:

* You are Hear!

* The gathering of the church

The Wrath of God:

1st Seal - The revealing of the antichrist
2nd Seal - Peace taken from the earth so that men kill each other
3rd Seal - World-wide famine causing food to be high priced
4th Seal - One fourth of the earths population killed as a result of the previous seals
5th Seal - Martyrs under the alter in heaven
6Th Seal - Great earthquake, sun darkened, moon blood red, stars fall to the earth
7th Seal - Angels receive their trumpets, prayers of the saints go up before God

---- 1st Trumpet - A third of the earth and trees are burned up
---- 2nd Trumpet - A third of the creatures die, a third of the ships destroyed
---- 3rd Trumpet - A third of the fresh water contaminated, many people die from drinking
---- 4th Trumpet - Sun, moon and stars are darkened so that a third of the light is missing
---- 5th Trumpet - Demonic beings are released from the Abyss to torment the inhabitants
---- 6th Trumpet - A third of mankind is killed by the four angels and the army of 200 million
---- 7th Trumpet - Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth

---------- 1st Bowl - Painful, ugly sores break out on those who receive the mark of the beast
---------- 2nd Bowl - The sea is turned into literal blood
---------- 3rd Bowl - The rivers and fresh water are turned into literal blood
---------- 4th Bowl - The sun scorches people with intense heat, searing them
---------- 5th Bowl - The beasts kingdom is plunged into darkness
---------- 6th Bowl - The Euphrates is dried up, demons gather for kings for Armageddon
---------- 7th Bowl - Strongest earthquake ever, hail stones from 75 to 100 lbs. fall

* Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His thousand year reign

* The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire

* Satan is seize and thrown into the Abyss during Christ thousand year reign

* The great tribulation saints are resurrected

* Millennial period

That is the correct chronological order of events

 

[GaryA]

1st Seal - The revealing of the antichrist
2nd Seal - Peace taken from the earth so that men kill each other
3rd Seal - World-wide famine causing food to be high priced
4th Seal - One fourth of the earths population killed as a result of the previous seals
5th Seal - Martyrs under the alter in heaven
6Th Seal - Great earthquake, sun darkened, moon blood red, stars fall to the earth
7th Seal - Angels receive their trumpets, prayers of the saints go up before God

---- 1st Trumpet - A third of the earth and trees are burned up
---- 2nd Trumpet - A third of the creatures die, a third of the ships destroyed
---- 3rd Trumpet - A third of the fresh water contaminated, many people die from drinking
---- 4th Trumpet - Sun, moon and stars are darkened so that a third of the light is missing
---- 5th Trumpet - Demonic beings are released from the Abyss to torment the inhabitants
---- 6th Trumpet - A third of mankind is killed by the four angels and the army of 200 million
---- 7th Trumpet - Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth

---------- 1st Bowl - Painful, ugly sores break out on those who receive the mark of the beast
---------- 2nd Bowl - The sea is turned into literal blood
---------- 3rd Bowl - The rivers and fresh water are turned into literal blood
---------- 4th Bowl - The sun scorches people with intense heat, searing them
---------- 5th Bowl - The beasts kingdom is plunged into darkness
---------- 6th Bowl - The Euphrates is dried up, demons gather for kings for Armageddon
---------- 7th Bowl - Strongest earthquake ever, hail stones from 75 to 100 lbs. fall

Read very carefully...

 

[Ahwatukee]

Read very carefully...

I have read it and have studied it very carefully for over 40 years. I know the order and I known what constitutes God's wrath. All that I listed there was off the top of my head.

 

[GaryA]

Revelation 6:

[SUP]14[/SUP] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 16:

[SUP]17[/SUP] And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. [SUP]18[/SUP] And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. [SUP]19[/SUP] And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. [SUP]20[/SUP] And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. [SUP]21[/SUP] And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Do you believe that the red-highlighed portions of these verses are referring to the same event-in-time?

Or, do you think there will be an earthquake - sometime before the greatest earthquake "since men were upon the earth" - that will [ actually ] move every mountain and island out of their places...?

 

[GaryA]

[video=youtube;IkdmOVejUlI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkdmOVejUlI[/video]

 

[GaryA]

I wonder how many people will go search all of the commentaries of the well-known preachers they "follow" ( and / or - the internet ) to try to find a plausible-sounding answer that explains how it is possible that there will be two separate earthquakes - each powerful enough to move every island and mountain out of its place ( and, actually does it ) -- with one occuring "at the beginning of the tribulation" and the other occuring "at the end of the tribulation"...

( snicker )

 

[GaryA]

So -- is every island and mountain going to be moved out of its place - once? - or - twice?

 

[Ahwatukee]

So -- is every island and mountain going to be moved out of its place - once? - or - twice?

Hi GaryA,

No! The earthquake that takes place at the 6th seal, is a great earthquake, but is not the greatest Earthquake, such as the one which takes place at the 7th bowl.

At the 6th seal, the mountains and islands are stirred from the places, jostled, but remain. Whereas the earthquake which takes place at the 7th bowl will be a world-wide earthquake, which will be the most powerful quake to ever take place since man has been on the earh. The results of that quake will be that the mounts will sink into the earth, most likely from the liquification factor where the water table mixes with the earth and becomes like quicksand. In addition, the cities of the nations will collapse.

Therefore, though the earthquakes of the 6th seal and the 7th bowl appear to be the same, they are in fact two separate earthquakes that will take place during that last seven years.ll

 

[GaryA]

No! The earthquake that takes place at the 6th seal, is a great earthquake, but is not the greatest Earthquake, such as the one which takes place at the 7th bowl.

I did not say that both of them were the "greatest" earthquake...

At the 6th seal, the mountains and islands are stirred from the places, jostled, but remain. Whereas the earthquake which takes place at the 7th bowl will be a world-wide earthquake, which will be the most powerful quake to ever take place since man has been on the earh. The results of that quake will be that the mounts will sink into the earth, most likely from the liquification factor where the water table mixes with the earth and becomes like quicksand. In addition, the cities of the nations will collapse.

I knew that you would say this. I have heard it before. It is the only answer that the 'pre-trib' view seems to be able to offer to this particular question.

The first mentioned earthquake will not be world-wide? According to Revelation 6:14, every mountain and island will be moved out of their places. You don't consider that to be a world-wide earthquake? Also, that is a very powerful earthquake!


So -- you are saying that you believe that there will be an earthquake "at the beginning of the tribulation" that will be powerful enough to move every island and mountain out of its place - and that it will actually do just exactly that? And then what? Business-as-usual? For what - the first half of seven years - isn't that what you believe? Don't you believe that the first half of seven years will be "peaceful" - before "all hell breaks loose" upon entering the second half of that seven years?


I agree with the idea that the mountains and islands will probably "sink"; however, I do not believe that any 'quicksand' effect will be needed. Simply shaking the foundation [ sufficiently ] underneath is enough to "flatten" the mountains and cause the islands to sink to the floor of the oceans and seas.


So - tell me...


Revelation 6:

[SUP]14[/SUP] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Will there be no 'heaven' during the [ entire ] tribulation? After all, it does say that the heaven departs -- which means that it is "gone" - no longer anywhere to be found...

Will the 'heaven' ( which includes the Sun, Moon, and Stars ) disappear and go away at the beginning of the tribulation - never to be seen again...???

 

[GaryA]

I forgot to mention -- I would think that an earthquake powerful enough to level every mountain and sink every island would also level [ pretty much ] every city on Earth...