are there any universalists here?????

[Muzungu256]

There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that man or the soul of man is immortal aside from the life that is found through faith in the shed blood of Jesus upon the cross, where Christ paid the price for sin, which is death. In fact, Scripture explicitly says that man is mortal and puts on immortality through Christ. Scripture also explicitly says that only God is immortal, and that He can destroy both body and soul. Over and over and over again we are told that the soul that sins shall die. The dead know nothing. Anyone not found in Jesus Christ at the end of this age passes into the second death. These things are all explicitly stated, clearly said, and yet people deny them.

There are quite a few places in the Bible where forever is not
meant to be taken to mean without end. Here are a few of them:

Sodom's fiery judgment is 'eternal' (Jude 7) - until...
God 'will restore the fortunes of Sodom' (Eze. 16:53-55).

Israel's 'affliction is incurable' (Jeremiah 30:12) - until... the
Lord 'will restore health' and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

The sin of Samaria 'is incurable' (Micah 1:9) - until...
Lord 'will restore the fortunes of Samaria.' (Ez. 16:53).

Ammon is to become a 'wasteland forever' and 'rise no more'
(Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27) - until... the Lord will 'restore
the fortunes of the Ammonites' (Jeremiah 49:6).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's
congregation 'forever' - until... the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3).

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were 'everlasting',
that is - until... they 'were shattered' (Habakkuk 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an 'everlasting' priesthood (Exodus 40:15),
that is - until... it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's
Temple 'forever' (1 Kings 8:13), that is - until... the Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an 'everlasting covenant' (Leviticus 24:8), yet we read in the New Covenant the first was 'done away' and 'abolished' (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God 'made the first old' (Hebrews 8:13).

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a 'perpetual' - until... Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah 'forever' - until... the Lord delivers
him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17).

Egypt and Elam will 'rise no more' (Jeremiah 25:27) - until... the Lord will 'restore the fortunes of Egypt' (Ezekiel 29:14) and 'restore the fortunes of Elam' (Jeremiah 49:39).

'Moab is destroyed' (Jeremiah 48:4, 42) - until... the Lord
'will restore the fortunes of Moab' (Jeremiah 48:47).

Israel's judgment lasts 'forever' - until... the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bondslave
was to serve his master 'forever' (Exodus 21:6), that is - until... his death."

hi!! i agree that eternal does not so often mean eternal, many would think its an error of the bible but its actually just a problem of translation, if you look into the word aion you know its just a certain time period, could be three days or three thousand days. sister Magenta i see you care about words, i urge you to look at the word basanizo in revelation its translated torment but the first definition of it is test metals by the touchstone!!! why did the translators use the most gruesome word out of all the ones available? i think it tells something of the translator more than the original manuscript i dont know. people dont want to forgive and love each other so they paint God in the same picture.

also did you know that of the early church skools only one taught eternal conscious torment all rest either universalist or annihilationist. yes.

 

[Depleted]

hi!!!!!!!!!! i want to ask if there are any universalists on this forum?????????????????? i think its a beautiful doctrine but I do wonder about the many warning passages!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what does it all mean??????????????? Adam succeeded in condemning humanity, will Christ succeed in redeeming it all??????????????????????? all shall confess Jesus as Lord and thats how we get saved, isnt everyone saved???????????????? why not???????????? is Adam more succesful than Jesus????????????? why preach if you are a universalist????????????????

i would like to hear opinions on this topic there was a book called love wins and re thinking hell website........... much talk about this yes.........

God lies, doesn't mind sin at all, pretty much lost all control, so he just swoops everyone up just in case is beautiful? I sure can tell you it's not doctrine. The word "doctrine" means something and everyone is saved means nothing. It's up there with a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow too. Fantasy.

 

[Desertsrose]

The second death is eternal ever after. Why can you not accept the plain teaching of Scripture???

Hi Magenta,

I think if it was so easy to understand, we wouldn't have a different view.

I still haven't had a chance to consider all the scriptures you've posted yet, but I will. I've researched some of what you've written, but haven't had the chance to cover all of it yet.

The very first problem I see is that we have to take all the scriptures that seems to say there is a tormenting judgement waiting for those who don't believe, and compare them with the scriptures you've brought up. And some of them are the words of Jesus.

Also, I see is that we have to look at the definitions of all the words to see how they're used. Maybe a word has more than one meaning. If that's the case, we must really study to know how the word is being used.

For example:

The wine skins spoken of in Luke 5:37 were ruined (apollumi) and were not useful anymore, but they were not annihilated. The wine skin was visible and tangible, but it's not worth anything, it's not usable for what it was made.

Also the sheep Luke 15:4 who are wandering and lost (apollumi), are still alive and well but they are separated from their useful purpose, but not annihilated.

And we have the prodigal son in Luke 15:24 who was said to have been lost (apollumi). He also left his useful purpose of being a son and an heir of all his father had, but he wasn't annihilated either.

So that's about as far as I've gotten in this study. I don't reject what you're saying, I just need to study and see for myself if your view will hold water or not.

 

[Depleted]

Yes, and no. I'm never going to be able to swallow the "torment in a lake of fire as punishment" preaching.

There's a lot of "I'm never going to be able" we claim now that will be disproved in eternity.

 

[Locutus]

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

base12 wants to know what this Zebra did to deserve this many stripes:

 

[MultilingualMessenger]

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

base12 wants to know what this Zebra did to deserve this many stripes:

And on its face too; no mercy!

 

[Base12]

You make me chuckle base.

I have my own thoughts on the nature of the lake of fire - not conclusive and I can't put forth a good argument for it because there is little to go on with only a few verses mentioning it.

When I create my Reincarnation thread, maybe you can contribute some cool ideas.

I don't know if I'll get banned for my beliefs, so if that happens I just want to say I had fun here.

 

[posthuman]

If H. ‘is not’, then she never was. I mistook a cloud of atoms for a person. There aren’t, and never were, any people. Death only reveals the vacuity that was always there. What we call the living are simply those who have not yet been unmasked. All equally bankrupt, but some not yet declared.
But this must be nonsense; vacuity revealed to whom? bankruptcy declared to whom? To other boxes of fireworks or clouds of atoms. I will never believe — more strictly I can’t believe — that one set of physical events could be, or make, a mistake about other sets.

​

- C.S. Lewis, referring to his wife who had passed away (("H")),
​

from A Grief Observed
​

here's some questions:

is existence the same as life?
can you exist without life?
can you live without existing?
are existence and life both something given to you or something inherent to yourself?

Lewis is arriving here at the conclusion that existence supersedes physical life, and that existence is eternal.
if you accept this, then all who exist, exist forever, otherwise they never existed at all. now the question becomes - exist forever in life ((not "life" confined to physical mortality -- God never refers to humans as physical bodies, but as people -- life as Christ defines it, which is eternal, which is "to know the Father and to know Christ whom He sent" in re: John 17:3))? or exist forever in not-life?

 

[Spokenpassage]

Do you believe the soul is immortal against the clear teaching of Scripture?

Yes, but not against Scripture, but it affirms that our soul is immortal, but different than how specifically God is eternal. It seems oblivious that the rest of mankind will be resurrected at all if they are annihilated in the end. Eternal destruction is different than destruction, that it is a continual process. Dying yet never dying.

 

[maxwel]

One cannot have Eternal Destruction without a Creator eternally creating that which is destroyed.

1. This is based on a very incorrect, and entirely illogical definition of the word "destruction" as it is applied to the soul in scripture.



2. This is also based on a very poor understanding of the LAW OF CONSERVATION OF MASS as it applies to the metaphysical realm.

A. This law, if applicable, would not disprove the physics of the traditional view of the "soul in hell", as the soul in hell is not actually going into non-existence.

B. This law cannot even be applicable to actions of God anyway, as this law only applies to a "closed system", and the universe is not a closed system if and when it is acted upon by the creator of the system... who is by definition beyond, and outside of, any system he was able to create.



3. This is a terrible argument. You'd be better off just trying to debate the meaning of the Greek, and getting everyone caught up in semantics.

 

[Magenta]

Hi Magenta,

I think if it was so easy to understand, we wouldn't have a different view.

I still haven't had a chance to consider all the scriptures you've posted yet, but I will. I've researched some of what you've written, but haven't had the chance to cover all of it yet.

The very first problem I see is that we have to take all the scriptures that seems to say there is a tormenting judgement waiting for those who don't believe, and compare them with the scriptures you've brought up. And some of them are the words of Jesus.

Also, I see is that we have to look at the definitions of all the words to see how they're used. Maybe a word has more than one meaning. If that's the case, we must really study to know how the word is being used.

For example:

The wine skins spoken of in Luke 5:37 were ruined (apollumi) and were not useful anymore, but they were not annihilated. The wine skin was visible and tangible, but it's not worth anything, it's not usable for what it was made.

Also the sheep Luke 15:4 who are wandering and lost (apollumi), are still alive and well but they are separated from their useful purpose, but not annihilated.

And we have the prodigal son in Luke 15:24 who was said to have been lost (apollumi). He also left his useful purpose of being a son and an heir of all his father had, but he wasn't annihilated either.

So that's about as far as I've gotten in this study. I don't reject what you're saying, I just need to study and see for myself if your view will hold water or not.

Hello Desertsrose It is a matter of life and death, for which Jesus holds the keys, and it does not get any simpler than that, really, though I never said it was easy, only that it is explicitly revealed in a multitude of Scriptures, which many turn a blind eye to and pooh pooh besides. The soul is not immortal, but people say it is and then pretend I am wrong to show the Scriptures that plainly state otherwise. The wineskin was a symbol of the covenants, since Jesus was instituting a new and better one, while the old one was being done away with.

 

[Base12]

I sincerely hope nobody here is counting on that "fresh start".

Like I pointed out earlier...

Psalm 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"

It's how you got here to begin with.

Be thankful and appreciative that this 'loophole' exists.

I sure am.

God is Love. God is Mercy. God is Just.

It's more than any of us are able to do with our "send em to Hell" attitudes.

It's obvious to me that Christians don't like the idea of Reincarnation, NOT because they think it's unbibilical, but because their hatred for Humanity refuses to allow them to see it any other way.

God has more Love than all of us combined.

That is why he gives us another chance.

But...

One must never think that One will come back with a wonderful life. I'm living proof of that, and yet others have it worse than me.

It's all pre-determined at judgment time. Why do you think the unbleivers and unsaved are judged according to their works?

To reap what they've sewn.

It's all 100% fair and just.

 

[Magenta]

Yes, but not against Scripture, but it affirms that our soul is immortal, but different than how specifically God is eternal. It seems oblivious that the rest of mankind will be resurrected at all if they are annihilated in the end. Eternal destruction is different than destruction, that it is a continual process. Dying yet never dying.

Scripture explicitly states that only God is immortal, and that man is mortal, putting on immortality through Christ (via our faith in His propitiatory sacrifice on the cross, where He paid the sin debt of the world), Who offers a life more abundant, and further, that God can destroy both body and soul.

All are resurrected to judgement, though there is no condemnation in Christ, for we are covered by His righteous blood through faith. Those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life pass into the second death, which is forever after.

 

[Base12]

can you exist without life?

Is Energy destroyed or transferred?

 

[garee]

Why can't you reconcile God being love, and an eternal punishment? How do those two not coincide to you? What is it about Hell that would make you feel that God would be unjust to deal out such a punishment?

Such a punishment as real death (no spirit life) and therfore never again rising to new spiirt life?

Christ, as the Son of man in the likeness of sinful flesh experienced hell, called the heart of the earth, the belly of the whale)

Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Mat 26:38

Jonas like Christ was strengthen to finish the work of suffering unto death(not dead) typified as hell.

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. Luk 22:42

Again in the same way Noah was strenthened, by faith.

Hell is a living suffering or tribulation in the corrupted flesh, in a living hope of an answer when one is exceeding sorrow, as unto death (not dead).

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

It is a living sacrifice .The death of the old body revealed that Christ did pour out His Spirit life (not seen) as if it was blood, (seen).

We are to look to the unseen (faith principle ) in respect to the spirit and the not the temporal as that seen the blood. (2 Cor 4:18) A dead body witness’s spirit life unseen was given according to suffering.

It’s a living work of pouring out ones spirit life according to the parable of Jonas, a figure of hell (tribulation).

The father working together with the Son sent comfort strengthening Christ as Noah used as a parable to complete the mission

Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD God out of the fish's belly,And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. Jon 2:1

The belly of hell is reckoned as the heart of this earth,Again as a living suffering. In both cases hell is reckoned as a living work.

We can suffer for do right or doing wrong but in this life we will have (hell) tribulation/suffering.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

The scripture does not mention any suffering\tribulation from a body that has no spirit life. How could it suffer if it does not have a life source, it cannot work.

The dead know nothing they have no spirit life. A dead body without a spirit has no life by which it could work to suffer.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


No spirit no way to suffer.

 

[Magenta]

The scripture does not mention any suffering\tribulation from a body that has no spirit life. How could it suffer if it does not have a life source, it cannot work.

The dead know nothing they have no spirit life. A dead body without a spirit has no life by which it could work to suffer.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

No spirit no way to suffer.

Amen. The dead know nothing is explicitly taught in Scripture, yet it is again and again rejected by those who promote eternal conscious torment in the second death. Scriptures rule out any such theory as to any part of man continuing in consciousness after death.

 

[posthuman]

Is Energy destroyed or transferred?

are you wholly comprised of matter and energy?
are you suggesting that if i had the right frequencies and had sufficient control of a field, i could transplant "you" into any object i wanted to?

if i took half of your brain, and was able to transplant it into a living body that had no brain, while keeping the other half of your brain alive and functional in its original body, where would you be?

 

[Spokenpassage]

Scripture explicitly states that only God is immortal, and that man is mortal, putting on immortality through Christ (via our faith in His propitiatory sacrifice on the cross, where He paid the sin debt of the world), Who offers a life more abundant, and further, that God can destroy both body and soul.

All are resurrected to judgement, though there is no condemnation in Christ, for we are covered by His righteous blood through faith. Those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life pass into the second death, which is forever after.

Man is mortal in the flesh, I am sure Scripture is clear on that. God will provide an immortal body for the Christian at the resurrection from the dead, but the reprobate will be raised with their same bodies to be thrown alive eternally into hellfire.

Think about it like this. How can someone propitiate for our sins? Well, first, they have to have a mortal body and a rational human soul, because angels cannot substitute for humans. They have to suffer the same kind of consequences as the substitute. Was Jesus suffering in body and soul? Yes, because that is our just end. Did his divinity suffer? No, it cannot suffer, nor could it substitute for men being of another nature. So his flesh (body and soul) was punished on that cross to satisfy the wrath of God toward sin and his divinity helped him endure it, which if it were us, it would have taken an eternity to suffer. But his divinity upheld him to drink the dregs of that cup.

Now, was Jesus annihilated on the cross? Nope. Did his soul get destroyed from existence? Nope. That wasn't the punishment. His punishment was a complete and utter forsaken from his Father, which is what will experience if we die in our sin.

 

[Willie-T]

People here don't even understand what 'Eternal Punishment' means.

I'll try and explain it...

"Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for two weeks"

^^^
That is a temporary punishment

"Little Johnny's parents decide not to give Little Johnny his allowance for all of eternity"

^^^
That is an eternal punishment

Note that Little Johnny isn't being brutally tortured for ever and ever.

Does anyone see the difference?

You do know that the Bible speaks of actual never-ending fires burning over in the Biblical countries, don't you? Fires that cannot be found? And, there are several other instances of the word "eternal" used in the Bible that were referring to indeterminate time.

It is far better to say that we may not always know what is truly meant when we see that word in the book, than to doggedly declare there can be no other meaning than the one we declare.

 

[Base12]

are you wholly comprised of matter and energy?
are you suggesting that if i had the right frequencies and had sufficient control of a field, i could transplant "you" into any object i wanted to?

if i took half of your brain, and was able to transplant it into a living body that had no brain, while keeping the other half of your brain alive and functional in its original body, where would you be?

These are fantastic questions.

What you are suggesting is what I think the "Image of the Beast" is going to be about.

Mankind will find a way to circumvent judgment and Lake of Fire.

They will retrieve someone out of death in order to revive them again. Perhaps some ancient god.

I believe God will allow Man to get away with this in order to prove a point...

That Mankind has finally gone too far and must be properly dealt with.