Are we justified by works?

[valiant]

The Loveless Church

2 “To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,

‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: [SUP]2 [/SUP]“I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; [SUP]3 [/SUP]and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’



OSAS STARTING TO LOOK A LITTLE SHAKY AT THIS POINT.

Why? I don't see any shakiness. The church is plunging into lovelessness and is warned that if it goes on they will be allowed to die. By this time only nominal Christians will survive. It deserves to die.

But the true Christians, the overcomers, will be given to eat of the tree of life.

It is a typical presentation of genuine Christin as opposed to nominal Christian. I don't see how it affects OSAS one way or the other. It is not saying that the nominal Christians were ever saved BY GOD.

 

[BillG]

i think willful sin is, something you know to be a sin and do knowingly


also if something is an accident

like a woman runs in front of you with yoga pants and for .000.001seconds you look before you repent and turn around or close your eyes

you were sinning from when you looked to when you repented if in your mind you felt lust instead of disgust for her imodesty?


maybe smoking weed is willfull

but someone spiking your verners is accidental sin?

Ok here are my thoughts

I don't think it's sinning knowingly as you put it. I am glad you can go .000.0000 1 seconds, better than me.

To me the sin that is being committed is here is to reject the knowledge of truth, who is the truth? It is Jesus.
Of we remedy the truth we reject the provision of God for salvation, if we do that then there is no other remedy for our sin of unbelief.

To me you you are thinking of works of the flesh that do manifest. Lady yoga pants. That is something along with other stuff we will struggle with until the day we die, even though we hate it and ask God for help.

But for me as I have said, the wilful sin here is rejecting Christ even though we have the full knowledge that through him we are saved and it's the only way to be saved

 

[JaimeMartinez26]

Ok here are my thoughts

I don't think it's sinning knowingly as you put it. I am glad you can go .000.0000 1 seconds, better than me.

To me the sin that is being committed is here is to reject the knowledge of truth, who is the truth? It is Jesus.
Of we remedy the truth we reject the provision of God for salvation, if we do that then there is no other remedy for our sin of unbelief.

To me you you are thinking of works of the flesh that do manifest. Lady yoga pants. That is something along with other stuff we will struggle with until the day we die, even though we hate it and ask God for help.

But for me as I have said, the wilful sin here is rejecting Christ even though we have the full knowledge that through him we are saved and it's the only way to be saved

interesting....


thanks for that perspective

 

[valiant]

The Faithful Church

[SUP]7 [/SUP]“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]“I know your works.


The Lukewarm Church

[SUP]14 [/SUP]“And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[SUP][f][/SUP] write,

‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: [SUP]15 [/SUP]“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. [SUP]16 [/SUP]So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[SUP][g][/SUP] I will vomit you out of My mouth.


VOMITING THEM OUT INTO.......HEAVEN??

Their works were like lukewarm water, they made Him sick. Again they are nominal Christians. No problem for OSAS here

 

[BillG]

im posing questions haha

im not claiming to be the most mature in my understanding

Jesus took me from being a willful fool a couple years ago

post away, keep posting. Nothing wrong with that.

Heck I do it every day with God.

I often find myself saying "God what is that I don't get about you, what am I missing?

We all need to keep position, searching and wanting to learn.

 

[Chris1975]

well its quite clear. Most of the members are nominal Christians who have a name but no reality. They are warned that they need to become real. For only he who overcomes (the true Christian) will be clothed in white garments. For them the future is certain. Far from being blotted out of the book of life (which is not possible), they will be confessed before the Father,

Psalm 69v28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
And not be written with the righteous.

But I am open to the fact of your statement insofar as the topic of Election is concerned.

 

[Chris1975]

Why? I don't see any shakiness. The church is plunging into lovelessness and is warned that if it goes on they will be allowed to die. By this time only nominal Christians will survive. It deserves to die.

But the true Christians, the overcomers, will be given to eat of the tree of life.

It is a typical presentation of genuine Christin as opposed to nominal Christian. I don't see how it affects OSAS one way or the other. It is not saying that the nominal Christians were ever saved BY GOD.

Good, now we are getting somewhere. How do you tell a true Christian from a nominal Christian?

You know them by their __________ ?

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

Why? I don't see any shakiness. The church is plunging into lovelessness and is warned that if it goes on they will be allowed to die. By this time only nominal Christians will survive. It deserves to die.

But the true Christians, the overcomers, will be given to eat of the tree of life.

It is a typical presentation of genuine Christin as opposed to nominal Christian. I don't see how it affects OSAS one way or the other. It is not saying that the nominal Christians were ever saved BY GOD.

Good, now we are getting somewhere. How do you tell a true Christian from a nominal Christian?

You know them by their __________ ?

God, and He's the One Who is important here, knows them by their faith. He rejoices in their faith long before that faith is productive in works. Its only men who afterwards have to see works.

A nominal Christian may well produce works, but they are not satisfactory to God.

 

[BillG]

Psalm 69v28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
And not be written with the righteous.

But I am open to the fact of your statement insofar as the topic of Election is concerned.

Look at previous verses quoted before v28.

Read the whole Psalm and put into the context of the one verse you have posted.

 

[valiant]

Psalm 69v28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
And not be written with the righteous.

But I am open to the fact of your statement insofar as the topic of Election is concerned.

The book of the living (those alive at the time) is not the same as the Lamb's book of life where names are permanently entered. The latter are written with the righteous

 

[dcontroversal]

dc may you explain this for me?


hebrews 10:26
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The context is counting the blood of Jesus a common ordinary base thing and trampling under foot the son of GOD by forsaking the assembling of oneself with the Lord's assembly....

There is no more sacrifice for sins....and to expect judgment if one does such....this does not imply the loss of salvation......and if salvation can be lost...NO ONE IS MAKING IT...there is NOT a JUST man upon the earth that does GOOD and SINS NOT.......

 

[Chris1975]

God, and He's the One Who is important here, knows them by their faith. He rejoices in their faith long before that faith is productive in works. Its only men who afterwards have to see works.

A nominal Christian may well produce works, but they are not satisfactory to God.

They are known by their fruit.

 

[Chris1975]

They are known by their fruit.

[h=3]The Parable of the Sower Explained[/h][SUP]13 [/SUP]And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? [SUP]14 [/SUP]The sower sows the word. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. [SUP]16 [/SUP]These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; [SUP]17 [/SUP]and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, [SUP]19 [/SUP]and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

 

[dcontroversal]

They are known by their fruit.

Sure...covered numerous times but rejected by you....so, in all of your infinite wisdom how would you describe the works of these saved men

a. Wood, hay and stubble
b. Corinthian brother and his fornication
c. David killing Uriah
d. Peter denying the Lord 3 times
e. Peter playing the hypocrite with the Jews

 

[dcontroversal]

Look at previous verses quoted before v28.

Read the whole Psalm and put into the context of the one verse you have posted.

To teach, believe and push works for salvation one must

a. Deny context
b. Reject and ignore verses
c. Reject and ignore verb tense

end of story......everyone of them will make the plenteous in number that boasts in their works as their means of entrance.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Their works were like lukewarm water, they made Him sick. Again they are nominal Christians. No problem for OSAS here

This comment borders on moronic....

 

[Chris1975]

Sure...covered numerous times but rejected by you....so, in all of your infinite wisdom how would you describe the works of these saved men

a. Wood, hay and stubble
b. Corinthian brother and his fornication
c. David killing Uriah
d. Peter denying the Lord 3 times
e. Peter playing the hypocrite with the Jews

----
a) wood, hay, stubble - works done out of your own strength, and for own prideful reasons. Not originating from Godly purposes.
b) Unless this brother repented before his death : flesh was sentenced to destruction (diseased/cancer) so that on his deathbed he could have a change of heart and repent of his sin. If he chose not to, and hardened his heart to this, then he wouldn't have been saved.
c) David, if he rejected the correction by the prophet Nathan (and in essence then rejecting God's correction), would have perished. David immediately repented. Question back at you --- what if David did not repent? What do you think the difference is between repentance and no repentance? Do you think repentance is not necessary (since you believe OSAS)?
d) Peter repented. Jesus asked Peter 3 times "Do you love me?" - on the beach after Jesus' resurrection. To which Peter affirmed. Then feed my lambs etc etc.
e) Repentance.

So let me ask you.....
If you think OSAS is a done deal at conversion......then you think its impossible to lose salvation.......then surely repentance is now OPTIONAL??

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

Their works were like lukewarm water, they made Him sick. Again they are nominal Christians. No problem for OSAS here

This comment borders on moronic....

do you see a problem for OSAS here?

 

[valiant]

----
a) wood, hay, stubble - works done out of your own strength, and for own prideful reasons. Not originating from Godly purposes.
b) Unless this brother repented before his death : flesh was sentenced to destruction (diseased/cancer) so that on his deathbed he could have a change of heart and repent of his sin. If he chose not to, and hardened his heart to this, then he wouldn't have been saved.
c) David, if he rejected the correction by the prophet Nathan (and in essence then rejecting God's correction), would have perished. David immediately repented. Question back at you --- what if David did not repent? What do you think the difference is between repentance and no repentance? Do you think repentance is not necessary (since you believe OSAS)?
d) Peter repented. Jesus asked Peter 3 times "Do you love me?" - on the beach after Jesus' resurrection. To which Peter affirmed. Then feed my lambs etc etc.
e) Repentance.

So let me ask you.....
If you think OSAS is a done deal at conversion......then you think its impossible to lose salvation.......then surely repentance is now OPTIONAL??

No, for those who are saved repentance is certain

 

[Chris1975]

To teach, believe and push works for salvation one must

a. Deny context
b. Reject and ignore verses
c. Reject and ignore verb tense

end of story......everyone of them will make the plenteous in number that boasts in their works as their means of entrance.....

Now lets look at the 1 Cor 5 "Brother"

[h=1]1 Corinthians 5New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [h=3]Immorality Defiles the Church[/h]5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[SUP][a][/SUP] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! [SUP]2 [/SUP]And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]5 [/SUP]deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (BODY/CANCER/DISEASE), that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (THROUGH REPENTANCE BEFORE HE BREATHES HIS LAST).[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? (SO SIN STILL SEEMS TO BE A PROBLEM THEN IN THE CHURCH. MANY HERE SAY THAT IT WAS DEALT WITH AND NAILED TO THE CROSS AND NO LONGER A FACTOR. YET WE SEE IN THIS INSTANCE ACTUAL SIN 'leaven' WORKING ITS WAY THROUGH THE BATCH) [SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

[h=3]Immorality Must Be Judged[/h][SUP]9 [/SUP]I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. (ONCE AGAIN, THE IMPORTANCE OF DEALING WITH SIN. WHY DO YOU SUSPECT PAUL HAS TO ADDRESS THIS TO OSAS BELIEVERS? IF OSAS BE TRUE, WHY THE FOCUS ON THE LEAVEN WORKING THROUGH THE WHOLE LUMP?)

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? [SUP]13 [/SUP]But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[SUP][d][/SUP]