Are we justified by works?

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

God, and He's the One Who is important here, knows them by their faith. He rejoices in their faith long before that faith is productive in works. Its only men who afterwards have to see works.

A nominal Christian may well produce works, but they are not satisfactory to God

They are known by their fruit.

And the dying thief?

 

[Chris1975]

No, for those who are saved repentance is certain

Just to clarify your comment here..... are you referring to the point of conversion, or referring to a lifestyle of repentance (ongoing)?

 

[Chris1975]

And the dying thief?

The one thief repented on the cross. The other didn't.

 

[valiant]

Now lets look at the 1 Cor 5 "Brother"

1 Corinthians 5New King James Version (NKJV)

Immorality Defiles the Church

5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[SUP][a][/SUP] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! [SUP]2 [/SUP]And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]5 [/SUP]deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (BODY/CANCER/DISEASE), that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (THROUGH REPENTANCE BEFORE HE BREATHES HIS LAST).[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]

There is no mention of cancer/disease, or of repentance. His spirit IS to be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus. That is the purpose of the excommunication.[/SUP]

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? (SO SIN STILL SEEMS TO BE A PROBLEM THEN IN THE CHURCH.

sin will always be a problem in the church. We must ever be on the watch. But it does not affect our security which depends on His faithfulness,

MANY HERE SAY THAT IT WAS DEALT WITH AND NAILED TO THE CROSS AND NO LONGER A FACTOR. YET WE SEE IN THIS INSTANCE ACTUAL SIN 'leaven' WORKING ITS WAY THROUGH THE BATCH)

sin is always a factor

Immorality Must Be Judged

[SUP]9 [/SUP]I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. (ONCE AGAIN, THE IMPORTANCE OF DEALING WITH SIN. WHY DO YOU SUSPECT PAUL HAS TO ADDRESS THIS TO OSAS BELIEVERS? IF OSAS BE TRUE, WHY THE FOCUS ON THE LEAVEN WORKING THROUGH THE WHOLE LUMP?)

Because God wants His followers to watch out for sin. Your mistake is to think this is all automatic. God uses chastening if necessary to get His way. But He succeeds in the end.

[SUP]

12

[/SUP]

For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? [SUP]13 [/SUP]But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[SUP][d][/SUP]

So they thrust him out for chastening. That is good. But it demonstrates God's continual action on the backslider. He NEVER leave him alone,

 

[dcontroversal]

do you see a problem for OSAS here?

Not at all....Corinthians teaches such....those who have works of wood, hay and stubble....still saved though their works are burnt to a crisp........the Corinthian brother who was in sin...put out for the destruction of the flesh and contrary to the above fallacy...there is zero proof he repented at any time.....

what you guys fail to attain is that JESUS paid for EVERY SIN and SIN is not the ISSUE anymore...the ISSUE IS FAITH....

WHEN the HS came he convicted, convinced and opened the eyes......TO SIN BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE NOT ON ME......

IT IS FINISHED = PAID IN FULL.....Christ died for me and PAID my SIN DEBT....his price SATISFIED the Heavenly FATHER and when I acknowledged him by FAITH his blood was eternally applied and I am saved, justified, sanctified in Christ positionally and sealed with the HS of promise.....

Was saved when I believed, am save now and will continue to be saved into the future..

NOTHING shall separate me from the LOVE OF GOD...

HOW do you describe the word NOTHING!

 

[dcontroversal]

Now lets look at the 1 Cor 5 "Brother"

1 Corinthians 5New King James Version (NKJV)

Immorality Defiles the Church

5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[SUP][a][/SUP] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! [SUP]2 [/SUP]And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]5 [/SUP]deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (BODY/CANCER/DISEASE), that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (THROUGH REPENTANCE BEFORE HE BREATHES HIS LAST).[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? (SO SIN STILL SEEMS TO BE A PROBLEM THEN IN THE CHURCH. MANY HERE SAY THAT IT WAS DEALT WITH AND NAILED TO THE CROSS AND NO LONGER A FACTOR. YET WE SEE IN THIS INSTANCE ACTUAL SIN 'leaven' WORKING ITS WAY THROUGH THE BATCH) [SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Immorality Must Be Judged

[SUP]9 [/SUP]I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. (ONCE AGAIN, THE IMPORTANCE OF DEALING WITH SIN. WHY DO YOU SUSPECT PAUL HAS TO ADDRESS THIS TO OSAS BELIEVERS? IF OSAS BE TRUE, WHY THE FOCUS ON THE LEAVEN WORKING THROUGH THE WHOLE LUMP?)

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? [SUP]13 [/SUP]But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[SUP][d][/SUP]

God only WHIPS sons....and his sin and subsequent punishment had nothing to do with losing salvation......

 

[mailmandan]

Well I do not understand the controversy in those quotes. Abram works find him favour in the eyes of the Lord. And him having faith on the promise God made him qualified him to be a friend of God. As I have said before, to be declared righteous one must have faith and do good in the eyes of the Lord. So let's stop hiding behind the bushes..faith goes hand in hand with your works.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous." When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6, yet Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the alter and demonstrated the reality of his faith in Genesis 22.

 

[Chris1975]

Because God wants His followers to watch out for sin. Your mistake is to think this is all automatic. God uses chastening if necessary to get His way. But He succeeds in the end.



So they thrust him out for chastening. That is good. But it demonstrates God's continual action on the backslider. He NEVER leave him alone,

2 Peter 2
[SUP]20 [/SUP]If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. [SUP]21 [/SUP]It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[SUP][g][/SUP] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

[Chris1975]

God only WHIPS sons....and his sin and subsequent punishment had nothing to do with losing salvation......

See Post 88

 

[mailmandan]

God only WHIPS sons....and his sin and subsequent punishment had nothing to do with losing salvation......

Amen! In Hebrews 12:8, the Amplifed Bible explains it very clearly - Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God’s children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all].

 

[Chris1975]

Not at all....Corinthians teaches such....those who have works of wood, hay and stubble....still saved though their works are burnt to a crisp........the Corinthian brother who was in sin...put out for the destruction of the flesh and contrary to the above fallacy...there is zero proof he repented at any time.....

There is also zero proof he actually made it into heaven.

 

[mailmandan]

2 Peter 2
[SUP]20 [/SUP]If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. [SUP]21 [/SUP]It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[SUP][g][/SUP] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature," having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strong's #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution.

Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have "escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

 

[dcontroversal]

There is also zero proof he actually made it into heaven.

Right...PAUL was clear..SO THE SPIRIT WOULD BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF CHRIST....your reply proves you could care less for knowing the truth as much as you do making a dogmatic stand on falsehoods

IT IS THE SPIRIT that has BEEN born again....not the flesh!

 

[Chris1975]

Right...PAUL was clear..SO THE SPIRIT WOULD BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF CHRIST....your reply proves you could care less for knowing the truth as much as you do making a dogmatic stand on falsehoods

IT IS THE SPIRIT that has BEEN born again....not the flesh!

Paul could not pronounce salvation on a person based on a letter written to a Corinthian church. At the time of writing this believer was still living in sin. The believer had a choice to make. So Paul tells the church to hand this one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (disease/cancer, etc) SO THAT his Spirit could be saved (Repentance). Paul cannot save anyone. Nor can he pronounce salvation on anyone. A person is saved when he (A) Repents, and (B) Believes.

This order was the same as given by John the Baptist, as well a Jesus Christ. REPENT, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

 

[Chris1975]

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Hebrews 6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age [SUP]6 [/SUP]and who have fallen[SUP][c][/SUP] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.


verse 4 and 5 - let there be no doubt that this believer had it all.
verse 6 - absolutely kills OSAS.
verse 7 - herein lies the topic of 'works' again.

 

[dcontroversal]

Paul could not pronounce salvation on a person based on a letter written to a Corinthian church. At the time of writing this believer was still living in sin. The believer had a choice to make. So Paul tells the church to hand this one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (disease/cancer, etc) SO THAT his Spirit could be saved (Repentance). Paul cannot save anyone. Nor can he pronounce salvation on anyone. A person is saved when he (A) Repents, and (B) Believes.

This order was the same as given by John the Baptist, as well a Jesus Christ. REPENT, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Paul did not pronounce salvation pal...He knew it is the spirit that is saved and not the dead body of sin...wake up and the bolded is your embellishments that are not supported and only added to support you false dogma and PAUL treats him as a MEMEBER of the Corinthian CHURCH....he had already repented and acknowledged JESUS by faith at some point in the past and had been biblically immersed <---proved by his inclusion in the Corinthian Assembly...

Man do you miss the mark, embellish and take the cake

 

[dcontroversal]

Hebrews 6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age [SUP]6 [/SUP]and who have fallen[SUP][c][/SUP] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.


verse 4 and 5 - let there be no doubt that this believer had it all.
verse 6 - absolutely kills OSAS.
verse 7 - herein lies the topic of 'works' again.

Again out of context to hang your false dogma on....dude...as long as you refuse to acknowledge context you will waste away in your false ideology and non biblical dogma

 

[seed_time_harvest]

When James said show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works,he was talking man to man,a man can not SHOW his faith to another man without using his body.

But GOD does not need to see physical works.

Romans 4:1-2
King James Version(KJV)

1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2.)For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age [SUP]6 [/SUP]and who have fallen[SUP][c][/SUP] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

verse 4 and 5 - let there be no doubt that this believer had it all.
verse 6 - absolutely kills OSAS.
verse 7 - herein lies the topic of 'works' again.

I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." *NOWHERE does the Bible use the words "lost salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: "IF a Christian were to fall away . . " The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew them again to repentance. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption.

once enlightened - The word enlightened means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. Figuratively, photizo means to give guidance or understanding, to make clear or to cause something to be known by revealing clearly. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man"; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light.

partakers of the Holy Spirit - Partakers describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an enterprise or undertaking. It speaks of those who are participators in something. Business partner, companion. Participating in. Accomplice in. Comrade. Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews in the context of believers (Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ") and thus the statement that the readers have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit seems at first glance to be support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the indwelling of believers. It is very plausible to envision an individual becoming a sharer in or partaker of the Spirit (and his pre-salvation ministry - convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come) by responding for a time to His drawing power intended to lead sinners to Christ. The translation "shared" implies something done in company with others and before salvation all believers shared in the convicting ministry of the Spirit Who drew them to salvation. Note also that the writer does not state that these individuals were "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or "possessors of the Spirit's pledge (guarantee) of future inheritance."

tasted the good word of God - They had tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, yet they still turned away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept the thing that is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

fall away - I find it interesting that the term "fall away" or "stumble" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to "fall away." Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation. For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall FALL by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16)

Hebrews 6:7,8 - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this agricultural metaphor, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. When we recall the other metaphors in Scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and fruitfulness is a sign of false believers (for example - Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35), we already have an indication that the author is speaking of people whose most trustworthy evidence of their spiritual condition (the fruit they bear) is negative, suggesting that the author is talking about people who are not genuine Christians. Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. *Thorns and briars and permanent falling away do not accompany salvation.

It is generally stated by those who believe salvation can be lost that you can get it back again. If the writer of Hebrews was truly teaching that a really "saved," person really "lost their salvation" then why didn't he simply say, "For it is impossible for those who were once born again or saved, if they fall away, to renew them again to salvation? Why is it that we never find the words "lost or lose your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue.

 

[mailmandan]

When James said show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works,he was talking man to man,a man can not SHOW his faith to another man without using his body.

But GOD does not need to see physical works.

Romans 4:1-2
King James Version(KJV)

1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2.)For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Yes, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).