Not By Works

[PeterJens]

This statement implies you stand with one or the other false positions you presented PeterJens.
"So my puzzle is not who I stand with but why people oppose me as an individual."

And it also makes it about YOU and ask people to tell you their issues with YOU.

When you say "believer" and "Pharisee"....well everyone knows you don't believe in "easy believism" so it's obvious you don't identify with "believer" description you gave....

I just put two positions.
I related one to the failure of the pharisees as I see it and the other
to one who has faith of some sort and insists on certainty of going to heaven.

It struck me though in different languages the outcome was the same.
It also struck me a similar problem with hearts, behaviour, excuses in many discussions
has arisen. Because words like repentance and sin have been changed, it can end up
like I am saying the same statements, but they are read totally differently.

So Ariel, do you understand my actual intention, rather than your reading of it?

I know you are angry with me and regard me as hypocritical. But that is a different
issue. My point is one of similarity. Do you agree there is a sense of presumption,
maybe correctly founded, maybe not, but is still there?

 

[Ariel82]

Just showing you what anyone reading your statements would "read into" your words.

Perhaps you could practice being clearer.

I am not angry at you but I do find you hyprocritical because you complain that people call you names but you call others names and say they are "just observations".

Perhaps they are just making "observations" of what you say.

It's not "reading into" your words.

Your words are unclear and something you probably need to work upon.

 

[FranC]

Originally Posted by PeterJens

A phrase from someone who decided I was totally wrong, unsaved, lost.

"You do not know what I believe"
"You have no idea about anything about me"
"You liar, deceiver, you evil creature" "Diablo"
"You insult, slander, lie continually about us"
"You are going to hell and sending others to hell"




So have I - and ironically from some of the very ones that say we are to walk in righteousness and purity of heart and to follow Christ. Go figure?

James 3:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

Hi Grace,
You wrote a very nice post to me to which I wanted to reply. I've been busy but wanted to spend some time with it, instead this thread goes too fast and I can't find it anymore!

I agree with everything you say. The problem I have is that some people hear what they want to hear and not what the person is saying.

I was at a funeral mass the other day and a very nice priest (a friend) spoke about the DOOR, the GATE. You have to go through the gate. Who is the gate? Jesus. The RCC does teach belief in Jesus, but many do not HEAR this. At the luncheon I spoke about this and no one at that table (except for my born again daughter) understood what the priest said, although it could not be clearer.

SO, when a new Christian reads along, he might get the impression from reading certain things (which I happen to agree with)
that he JUST HAS TO HAVE FAITH IN JESUS, and all will be just fine --- when in reality Jesus said we are to do the work of the Kingdom.

I've thought about this and I believe the difficulty I personally have here is the Language we speak.

We talk about works...


Works are necessary as we all agree.
So maybe the problem is with the words "LAW" and "GRACE"?

A girl at out table told me she goes to Mass because she feels she has to. This is following the Law.
I told her it's like not even going, and she should go because she loves God. This is Grace.

She's still going to Mass, but one is efficacious and the other is of no value.
BOTH ARE A WORK.

Everything we do is a work. It's just that some have value and some don't.
We still must FOLLOW THE LAW. It was NOT abolished.
But the REASON we follow the Law and do works is what counts.

So, OF COURSE we are saved by faith ALONE.
Works come after.

When we say that FAITH ONLY STILL SAVES US AND CONTINUES TO SAVE US,
that's where I fear some may misunderstand.

Continued salvation, or progressive justification, or sanctification, ARE a cooperative effort which includes man.

AND we cannot say that God does everything in us.
If this were true, then He would also have to accept the responsibility when we do not listen to Him and sin.
WE are RESPONSIBLE for our once time decision (salvation) and our daily decisions (sanctification).

Thessalonians 3:11 tells us to work and not be idle. Paul meant real work, like at a job, however some had stopped doing everything and instead Paul said we are to continue to do everthing --- until the Lord returns. In verse 14 Paul goes so far as to say to not associate with those who do not obey his instructions.

Thessalonians 4:3 it is God's will that we be sanctified --- and then it goes on to say what we are not to do. Paul says that the Lord will punish those for such sins. This means that WE are responsible for our own sins and cannot blame God.

Paul goes on to say that God called us to live a holy life, and he who rejects this does not reject man but rejects God, who gives us the Holy Spirit.

Faith and belief in Jesus DOES CONTINUE to save us.
But what does BELIEF in Jesus mean?
Everyone here, including yourself, seems to understand Greek.
BELIEF in the Greek means TO FOLLOW, to AGREE WITH, TO OBEY.

So, my question is simple:
Is it correct to say that ONLY FAITH CONTINUES to save?
Or should we say that our OBEDIENCE of faith continues to save us?

 

[notmyown]

Christ is still King!

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. (Col 1:15-18 NASB)


just thought i'd mention it

 

[PeterJens]

Your words are unclear and something you probably need to work upon.

"probably" - I always need to work on clarity. I tend to get better as I clarify
my thinking and refine how I express it. This is why I also like the to and fro of
discussion. I once had a discussion with my son on free will. Did not go well
because he wanted a defined answer, and there is probably not one.

So I find making observations, padding things out working through things helps.
And I am not complaining, I am observing the difference between a true rejection
of someone or a position, and just abuse. We will see both, and knowing what is
one and what is the other is helpful.

I hope to identify those who desire actual discussion and enquiry from those whose
intention is abusive. And I am happy if you call me out on this. I did go too far
the other day, for which I am sorry. I suppose we believe we are adults though sometimes
we behave like stroppy kids, lol.

I saw a debate between a group of radicals and a university scholar. As soon as the discussion
got difficult, one side said the other just hated them, and this was why they said what they said.

The guy stopped talking and left, because this was just abuse, and made discussion pointless.
If one believes in truth and bringing people into wisdom, it means both sides have to accept the
integrity of the other, even if they disagree at a fundamental level. Some find this concept too
difficult to accept.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To believe you wil end up in heaven if you honor and obey is good enough to me bro..

Thats the problem. You can honor and obey all you want, It will not get you to heaven.. Only Jesus and the cross can get you into heaven.

Thats why the phairsee rejected chrit, they thought all they had to do was honor and obey God. They did not need a "messiah" who would save them from their sins, They needed a "Messiah" to free them from the romans.

 

[FranC]

Pharisee - We are living by the law, we are righteous, we are chosen, we are Gods blessed

Believer - We are going to heaven guaranteed, God has no issues with us or our lives.

Peter felt he was impenetrable, yet denied the Lord three times.
Paul felt he was impenetrable, yet ended up killing the Lords people.

Certainty is our problem when everything actually rests on communion with the Lord
and often our blindness and mistakes against His grace and leading. In Christ there
is life, but we do have to walk in it, so as to fulfill the promise, to be Gods ambassadors
on earth, rather than failures waiting to get it right at the door.

Korah was certain God would choose him, yet he it was who was standing against
the Lords anointed. Hundreds of people supported Korah, it was not a minor question,
it went to the heart of Israel and their future direction.

So my puzzle is not who I stand with but why people oppose me as an individual.
I share we should walk in love, repentance and grace. We should be cautious of arrogance
and certainty, but seek the Lord and His guidance in the word and His people.

If the only coherent response is personal, then whoever you are, please go to the Lord, and
work it through. This has nothing to do with me and everything to do with you and the Lord.

In a few sentences I cannot convey such animosity or feeling, you are literally generating it
in yourselves, and then putting it on me. I pray that the Lord can help you to work it through,
but this is a spiritual problem in your heart. Sin is obvious, it is clear cut, you can describe it
and articulate it. If you feel a strong feeling and cannot articulate it, then it has to do with
something else. Something from your past, relationships, bad experiences. And they are
unresolved. For one person it was the pain of taking leadership roles and not coping with the
pressure and continual knocks. Some crack up under such loads, because we want to be loved
and appreciated, and come often with a good heart and good goals. So God bless you all,
let us learn how to be wise about ourselves and others going forward in Christ.

Hi PeterJens,

I haven't been here long but I have to agree with everything you say above.

Our discussions should be based on doctine and on biblical concepts --- personal remarks should be left out of our posts.
I don't think people here dislike you personally, or me either for that matter, I think the problem is that they don't understand our position. Or maybe they do and we don't understand thiers.

We all seem to believe in works, and yet some here almost do not want to admit this.
I don't know why. I don't know why the word "works" is so scary.
Maybe it means different things to different people.

Christianity has changed in the past 500 years. It was Always the same for the first 1,500.
Luther changed everything. And then more change came along.

Today we have the WOF movement, which demands that God do as WE SAY, not that we do as GOD SAYS. This is an interestng concept to me. It seems to me we're to serve God, not the other way around.

Then we have the Hyper-Faith movement. Everything is faith. One in a great while, it will be said that we are not to sin, but faith is stressed and one comes away thinking that this is all that's needed.

Then we have Mr. Calvin. He totally changed the NATURE of GOD. How anyone could serve the God he created is a mystery to me, but alas, many follow this teaching.

Seems like we've come a long way from the beginnings.
Was Christianity correct THEN or NOW??
This seems like an important question to me.

The title of this thread is Not By Works

Not by works what? That's all Jesus spoke about.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

oh forgot the works part to honor and obey is a works..

If you do it to "Get Saved" "Stay Saved" or "Not lose salvation" This is not honoring God, and is called legalism

If you do it because you are saved ,then you honor God. This is called sanctification

 

[Ariel82]

Our obedience doesn't continue to save us.

Saying our faith saves or that the power of God through us saves is different than saying we are robots.

It is acknowledging that only by God's power can we do good or continue to obey.
.it is NOT blaming God for our sins but giving glory to God for our successes which can only happen by His power and guidance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You hit the nail on the head!

Amen, it is sad that so many people od not understand the difference between justification *salvation) and sanctification (Christian Growth)

Thats why people get so confused over these issues..

 

[FranC]

Wait wait wait...,,peterjens did you just identify yourself as a Pharisee?

Anyway your definition of "believer" is incorrect unless you mean a believer in a false gospel,because God does have a problem with most of us, that's why He sent Jesus.

Here let me help you out.

A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER is someone who has died to his/her old self, repented of being a sinner and disobeying God, repented of unbelief and been given the Holy Spirit that declared them as children of God. God thenchastens and trains each adopted child to live godly lives. Of God is not convicting and teaching people how to overcome their sins then they are illegitimate and not true children of the Most High God. God does not only teach us what sin is according to Him, he empowers us to overcome. He lifts us up when we fall into a ditch the enemy digs and teaches us how to avoid such traps in the future. He is not a distant God but a living Father that walks with us through the valleys and mountains of our lives. Some days He carries us on wings of eagles and others He shelters us through the storms of our lives.

A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER walks with GOD daily and are ambassadors for the King to this world in need of His light and life giving water.

I know I am a BORN again believer.


A Pharisee is someone who teaches the Law and externally obeys but in their heart murders people daily. With their mouth they slander and lie but deny they have done any wrong. They do not repent or pray and seek God or His ways. They preach God's law without understanding the true depth of it but only judge people by external signs. They lack spiritual discernment and condemn people as lost fools who do not agree with them. They may speak from the Bible, but they lack power because their words contain no love for those they speak. Jesus called them whitewashed tombs. They look clean and pure on the outside but inside they are filled with dead men's bones. They seek to enslave those God has freed to the chains of condemnation and use God's law unlawfully to create their chains of lies and false doctrine.

I don't know why anyone would want to identify with Pharisees.

WELL SAID!
AMEN!

 

[Ariel82]

"Not by works what? That's all Jesus spoke about."

No Jesus spoke of grace and people's need for a savior, because they could not keep perfectly the Law of God.

 

[PeterJens]

So, my question is simple:
Is it correct to say that ONLY FAITH CONTINUES to save?
Or should we say that our OBEDIENCE of faith continues to save us?

Salvation is our relationship with Christ.
If our relationship is not there, dead
If our relationship is alive and beating, we are alive
If our relationship has died, dead.

In Christ you have a living relationship with the Father.
If you defile this with sin and loose your faith, so the relationship is broken.
Many know the dread they have but not how Christ meets it, so they have
not even begun.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have had that said to me. Truly shocking indeed.

It is sad.

What is even sadder is people like Peter Jens (who fits every one of those comments) still will not repent, and try to figure out what ther people believe.

I have yet to see you say something about another person they did not believe, And if you did, I know you would repent if they corrected you on a particular issue you got wrong about them,, Which again, Peter and a few others refuse to do, Thats one of the reasons he get so much flack from many people

 

[Ariel82]

If you do it to "Get Saved" "Stay Saved" or "Not lose salvation" This is not honoring God, and is called legalism

If you do it because you are saved ,then you honor God. This is called sanctification

And this is the point many miss: what is your heart motive?

To keep or earn salvation OR to glorify God because He has already saved you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Our obedience doesn't continue to save us.

Saying our faith saves or that the power of God through us saves is different than saying we are robots.

It is acknowledging that only by God's power can we do good or continue to obey.
.it is NOT blaming God for our sins but giving glory to God for our successes which can only happen by His power and guidance.

Amen, Living in grace is depending on the power of God to sanctify us, Taking ownership of our sins and failures, and not trying to hide them or deny they are even sins. And continually able to go to the throne room of grace, because he always makes intercession for us, So satan can not attack us with our win issues.. to take us out..

 

[Ariel82]

Salvation is our relationship with Christ.
If our relationship is not there, dead
If our relationship is alive and beating, we are alive
If our relationship has died, dead.

In Christ you have a living relationship with the Father.
If you defile this with sin and loose your faith, so the relationship is broken.
Many know the dread they have but not how Christ meets it, so they have
not even begun.

That is where we disagree.

You believe Jesus love is conditional on your obedience and lack of sin.

God says even when we are faithless. He is faithful to save us.

God loved us while we are sinners and He is mighty to save and teach His kids how to overcome. That is why He chastens people. If someone is ALREADY sinless,why would they need chastenment?

 

[Ariel82]

Again "loose" is used in sentences like "My son has a loose tooth. I lost a lot of weight and these clothes are now loose,"

What you mean is "lose"

As in "if you beat on getting into Heaven by your own works,you will lose that bet"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"Not by works what? That's all Jesus spoke about."

No Jesus spoke of grace and people's need for a savior, because they could not keep perfectly the Law of God.

I was reminded this weekend of Egypt. And the total slaver the people of Israel were in. There was absolutely nothing they could do to buy their freedom, No matter how good they were, they were still slaves, They could not save themselves, They needed God to save them.

So dire was their situation, God sent plagues of all types to tyy to help free them But it did not work. FInally He did the one thing which could free them.

They had to take a lamb without blemish and sacrifice that lamb, Only the blood of that lamb would save them, If that blood was not applied, they lost.

This is our salvation, We are in such dire straights, we can not save ourselves. Only the blood of the lamb can save us,

Now after we are saved, We can be like most of the children and complain and not work, and walk around in misery (it would be better if I lived like I did before, at lest then I had some fun, so we think)) or we could be like Moses and Joshua and a few others, and work hard. And god will bless us even in the time in the desert..

I think alot of people like the OT and symbololgy, But they do not understand it, they need to go back and study again. This time with open minds and hearts. and let God talk to them, not their pastors.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And this is the point many miss: what is your heart motive?

To keep or earn salvation OR to glorify God because He has already saved you?

Thats just it,,

We say we obey BECAUSE we are saved, Yet we keep getting told we hate God and hate obedience.

If we stick to the context.. Everyone would see we do not hate either,, We love both