Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Pharisee - We are living by the law, we are righteous, we are chosen, we are Gods blessed
Believer - We are going to heaven guaranteed, God has no issues with us or our lives.
Peter felt he was impenetrable, yet denied the Lord three times.
Paul felt he was impenetrable, yet ended up killing the Lords people.
Certainty is our problem when everything actually rests on communion with the Lord
and often our blindness and mistakes against His grace and leading. In Christ there
is life, but we do have to walk in it, so as to fulfill the promise, to be Gods ambassadors
on earth, rather than failures waiting to get it right at the door.
Korah was certain God would choose him, yet he it was who was standing against
the Lords anointed. Hundreds of people supported Korah, it was not a minor question,
it went to the heart of Israel and their future direction.
So my puzzle is not who I stand with but why people oppose me as an individual.
I share we should walk in love, repentance and grace. We should be cautious of arrogance
and certainty, but seek the Lord and His guidance in the word and His people.
If the only coherent response is personal, then whoever you are, please go to the Lord, and
work it through. This has nothing to do with me and everything to do with you and the Lord.
In a few sentences I cannot convey such animosity or feeling, you are literally generating it
in yourselves, and then putting it on me. I pray that the Lord can help you to work it through,
but this is a spiritual problem in your heart. Sin is obvious, it is clear cut, you can describe it
and articulate it. If you feel a strong feeling and cannot articulate it, then it has to do with
something else. Something from your past, relationships, bad experiences. And they are
unresolved. For one person it was the pain of taking leadership roles and not coping with the
pressure and continual knocks. Some crack up under such loads, because we want to be loved
and appreciated, and come often with a good heart and good goals. So God bless you all,
let us learn how to be wise about ourselves and others going forward in Christ.
Believer - We are going to heaven guaranteed, God has no issues with us or our lives.
Peter felt he was impenetrable, yet denied the Lord three times.
Paul felt he was impenetrable, yet ended up killing the Lords people.
Certainty is our problem when everything actually rests on communion with the Lord
and often our blindness and mistakes against His grace and leading. In Christ there
is life, but we do have to walk in it, so as to fulfill the promise, to be Gods ambassadors
on earth, rather than failures waiting to get it right at the door.
Korah was certain God would choose him, yet he it was who was standing against
the Lords anointed. Hundreds of people supported Korah, it was not a minor question,
it went to the heart of Israel and their future direction.
So my puzzle is not who I stand with but why people oppose me as an individual.
I share we should walk in love, repentance and grace. We should be cautious of arrogance
and certainty, but seek the Lord and His guidance in the word and His people.
If the only coherent response is personal, then whoever you are, please go to the Lord, and
work it through. This has nothing to do with me and everything to do with you and the Lord.
In a few sentences I cannot convey such animosity or feeling, you are literally generating it
in yourselves, and then putting it on me. I pray that the Lord can help you to work it through,
but this is a spiritual problem in your heart. Sin is obvious, it is clear cut, you can describe it
and articulate it. If you feel a strong feeling and cannot articulate it, then it has to do with
something else. Something from your past, relationships, bad experiences. And they are
unresolved. For one person it was the pain of taking leadership roles and not coping with the
pressure and continual knocks. Some crack up under such loads, because we want to be loved
and appreciated, and come often with a good heart and good goals. So God bless you all,
let us learn how to be wise about ourselves and others going forward in Christ.
Thank you Jesus for your blessing of us here today. Thank you that you have graced
us with another day to bring praise to Your name, and share the love that is at work in
our hearts to bring glory to Your Name, In Jesus Christs Name, Amen.
So I will ask you brothers and sisters, am I allowed to pray this prayer of thanks?
Am I allowed to claim the name of Jesus Christ?
I do not deny any of you this right, because it is God who has given us all the right
to pray and talk with Him. God has an open door policy to senior management, what
a King.
What I find illuminating is some have expressed the feeling, that I have no right to
pray, or if I am praying I am not praying to God. I mention this because it is such a
strange idea. God is the judge of our prayers and our hearts, and we should encourage
all to go to Him. In evangelism this is the first step. Talk to Jesus because He will answer.
It is easier to say, the enemy are this horrible creature who does .... They are so
bad they do .... To love your enemy the first step is to know they are just like you but
with a minor difference, a little perspective change, which may be critical, or maybe not.
Once you have begun to see and identify with others, you begin to see the truth about
all of us, and what the issues really are. So I sincerely pray, that you might begin to understand
the walk in Christ is a walk inside as well, a walk of empathy, a walk of knowing others and
how we all are, and how we create worlds of extremes that do not exist, but we want them to.
We want them to because they excuse the strong feelings we have and throw at others.
God bless you this day, Amen
us with another day to bring praise to Your name, and share the love that is at work in
our hearts to bring glory to Your Name, In Jesus Christs Name, Amen.
So I will ask you brothers and sisters, am I allowed to pray this prayer of thanks?
Am I allowed to claim the name of Jesus Christ?
I do not deny any of you this right, because it is God who has given us all the right
to pray and talk with Him. God has an open door policy to senior management, what
a King.
What I find illuminating is some have expressed the feeling, that I have no right to
pray, or if I am praying I am not praying to God. I mention this because it is such a
strange idea. God is the judge of our prayers and our hearts, and we should encourage
all to go to Him. In evangelism this is the first step. Talk to Jesus because He will answer.
It is easier to say, the enemy are this horrible creature who does .... They are so
bad they do .... To love your enemy the first step is to know they are just like you but
with a minor difference, a little perspective change, which may be critical, or maybe not.
Once you have begun to see and identify with others, you begin to see the truth about
all of us, and what the issues really are. So I sincerely pray, that you might begin to understand
the walk in Christ is a walk inside as well, a walk of empathy, a walk of knowing others and
how we all are, and how we create worlds of extremes that do not exist, but we want them to.
We want them to because they excuse the strong feelings we have and throw at others.
God bless you this day, Amen
A phrase from someone who decided I was totally wrong, unsaved, lost.
"You do not know what I believe"
"You have no idea about anything about me"
"You liar, deceiver, you evil creature" "Diablo"
"You insult, slander, lie continually about us"
"You are going to hell and sending others to hell"
Now at the end of a real analysis of faith, finding out where someone is in their
lifestyle, their theology, their authority, their view of scripture, these words could
be true. But as general statements before any of this is complete and stated they
are just exercising prophecy or painting an enemy because of emotional feelings.
If one spends months working through step by step someones faith, listing it and
showing it, a statement "you do not know what I believe" is delusional.
Now with all sincerity I respect each persons position, no matter what it is, because
it is their right that God has given them. But if you want to walk with Christ, you
have to let your "yes" be "yes" and your "no" be "no". Being in the light is just that,
being open and honest, facing the weakness and strengths of where you stand.
Can you learn to do this, because this is Jesus's way? At least this is my understanding
of my Lord. Maybe you believe hiding things and appearing to be something different
is part of the spiritual warfare, so "all is fair in love and war." I am sure some follow
this morality, based on their sentiments, but is the true of Christ?
"You do not know what I believe"
"You have no idea about anything about me"
"You liar, deceiver, you evil creature" "Diablo"
"You insult, slander, lie continually about us"
"You are going to hell and sending others to hell"
Now at the end of a real analysis of faith, finding out where someone is in their
lifestyle, their theology, their authority, their view of scripture, these words could
be true. But as general statements before any of this is complete and stated they
are just exercising prophecy or painting an enemy because of emotional feelings.
If one spends months working through step by step someones faith, listing it and
showing it, a statement "you do not know what I believe" is delusional.
Now with all sincerity I respect each persons position, no matter what it is, because
it is their right that God has given them. But if you want to walk with Christ, you
have to let your "yes" be "yes" and your "no" be "no". Being in the light is just that,
being open and honest, facing the weakness and strengths of where you stand.
Can you learn to do this, because this is Jesus's way? At least this is my understanding
of my Lord. Maybe you believe hiding things and appearing to be something different
is part of the spiritual warfare, so "all is fair in love and war." I am sure some follow
this morality, based on their sentiments, but is the true of Christ?
A
Took me a while to find this post...
I numbered the questions and statements so could answer or comment with having to do the "quotes"
1. Yes our newly resurrected bodies will not have sickness or age when Jesus comes back and makes the New Heaven and New Earth.
2. The Seed can't be corrupted. Our spirits remain pure because out soul/spirit is from God but our minds and bodies can be tempted to sin, this can be corrupted by our interactions with this corrupt world.
3. Some battles are won, some are lost but the war was won by Jesus upon the cross. We won by listening and following the Holy Spirit.
4. You kind of answer this question with your statement 5. You get attack because you aren't keeping watch and guarding your heart. When I write to people, I am not trying to tell folks anything "new", just trying to remind them what they already know because God told them the same in the Bible.
I don't see anyone on this forum as my "enemy" but I do see some as being enslaved to false doctrines and lies that war against the knowledge of God.
5. I agree. We should keep watch and pray. However, we can also trust God to keep watch and guard us so that we can rest at times too.
6. Yeah I also agree that Satan doesn't follow God's orders as some people falsely teach. The Bible says we are not tempted of God but our own flesh leads us astray. Yet some folks still want to blame God,instead of take personal responsibility and repent.
7. I believe the Bible says forgive as you have been forgiven. Bless because you have been blessed. God doesn't say to do things in order to receive but because we have already been given love by the grace of God. We should give others grace also even if we don't think they deserve it, even if we never see any earthly blessings.
God does not say for us to work to be paid. So we dont bless in order to receive blessings...that sound too much like the false prosperity gospel many people have become enslaved in and makes people think God "owes" them something for their "good" works.
God doesn't owe us anything. We need to,be,more humble and thankful for,the blessings He has already given.
7. We may call a work "good" but God looks at a person's heart. Does that person do it for power or personal recognition?
Then it's not "good" but done out of selfish motives.
Good works are only good when done by a person whose heart,has been cleaned by God, because they do the work to glorify God.
Therefore it would be better to say good people will do good works, but the person is made good by the Blood of the Lamb and the leading of the Holy Spirit that allows them to confidently say they are children of the most High God
Ps. Thanks for your reply to my question. You will be the first person I meet who attends an Anglican Catholic church.
I numbered the questions and statements so could answer or comment with having to do the "quotes"
1. Yes our newly resurrected bodies will not have sickness or age when Jesus comes back and makes the New Heaven and New Earth.
2. The Seed can't be corrupted. Our spirits remain pure because out soul/spirit is from God but our minds and bodies can be tempted to sin, this can be corrupted by our interactions with this corrupt world.
3. Some battles are won, some are lost but the war was won by Jesus upon the cross. We won by listening and following the Holy Spirit.
4. You kind of answer this question with your statement 5. You get attack because you aren't keeping watch and guarding your heart. When I write to people, I am not trying to tell folks anything "new", just trying to remind them what they already know because God told them the same in the Bible.
I don't see anyone on this forum as my "enemy" but I do see some as being enslaved to false doctrines and lies that war against the knowledge of God.
5. I agree. We should keep watch and pray. However, we can also trust God to keep watch and guard us so that we can rest at times too.
6. Yeah I also agree that Satan doesn't follow God's orders as some people falsely teach. The Bible says we are not tempted of God but our own flesh leads us astray. Yet some folks still want to blame God,instead of take personal responsibility and repent.
7. I believe the Bible says forgive as you have been forgiven. Bless because you have been blessed. God doesn't say to do things in order to receive but because we have already been given love by the grace of God. We should give others grace also even if we don't think they deserve it, even if we never see any earthly blessings.
God does not say for us to work to be paid. So we dont bless in order to receive blessings...that sound too much like the false prosperity gospel many people have become enslaved in and makes people think God "owes" them something for their "good" works.
God doesn't owe us anything. We need to,be,more humble and thankful for,the blessings He has already given.
7. We may call a work "good" but God looks at a person's heart. Does that person do it for power or personal recognition?
Then it's not "good" but done out of selfish motives.
Good works are only good when done by a person whose heart,has been cleaned by God, because they do the work to glorify God.
Therefore it would be better to say good people will do good works, but the person is made good by the Blood of the Lamb and the leading of the Holy Spirit that allows them to confidently say they are children of the most High God
Ps. Thanks for your reply to my question. You will be the first person I meet who attends an Anglican Catholic church.
Last edited by a moderator:
I am interested in recognising its disfunctional source, and then putting it to one side.
Once one panders to this language, it encourages it to be repeated.
Some are addicted to division based on these kind of statements rather than real discussion.
Bill, this is why I appreciate you, because I am just interested in love and blessing, and finding
how to walk in Christs ways. It is an analytical passion and also a desire for revival, for the people
of Christ to rise from the dry bones. We need this more than ever, to find the passion of the Holy
Spirit taking His people forward, Amen.
Once one panders to this language, it encourages it to be repeated.
Some are addicted to division based on these kind of statements rather than real discussion.
Bill, this is why I appreciate you, because I am just interested in love and blessing, and finding
how to walk in Christs ways. It is an analytical passion and also a desire for revival, for the people
of Christ to rise from the dry bones. We need this more than ever, to find the passion of the Holy
Spirit taking His people forward, Amen.
A
Wait wait wait...,,peterjens did you just identify yourself as a Pharisee?
Anyway your definition of "believer" is incorrect unless you mean a believer in a false gospel,because God does have a problem with most of us, that's why He sent Jesus.
Here let me help you out.
A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER is someone who has died to his/her old self, repented of being a sinner and disobeying God, repented of unbelief and been given the Holy Spirit that declared them as children of God. God thenchastens and trains each adopted child to live godly lives. Of God is not convicting and teaching people how to overcome their sins then they are illegitimate and not true children of the Most High God. God does not only teach us what sin is according to Him, he empowers us to overcome. He lifts us up when we fall into a ditch the enemy digs and teaches us how to avoid such traps in the future. He is not a distant God but a living Father that walks with us through the valleys and mountains of our lives. Some days He carries us on wings of eagles and others He shelters us through the storms of our lives.
A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER walks with GOD daily and are ambassadors for the King to this world in need of His light and life giving water.
I know I am a BORN again believer.
A Pharisee is someone who teaches the Law and externally obeys but in their heart murders people daily. With their mouth they slander and lie but deny they have done any wrong. They do not repent or pray and seek God or His ways. They preach God's law without understanding the true depth of it but only judge people by external signs. They lack spiritual discernment and condemn people as lost fools who do not agree with them. They may speak from the Bible, but they lack power because their words contain no love for those they speak. Jesus called them whitewashed tombs. They look clean and pure on the outside but inside they are filled with dead men's bones. They seek to enslave those God has freed to the chains of condemnation and use God's law unlawfully to create their chains of lies and false doctrine.
I don't know why anyone would want to identify with Pharisees.
Anyway your definition of "believer" is incorrect unless you mean a believer in a false gospel,because God does have a problem with most of us, that's why He sent Jesus.
Here let me help you out.
A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER is someone who has died to his/her old self, repented of being a sinner and disobeying God, repented of unbelief and been given the Holy Spirit that declared them as children of God. God thenchastens and trains each adopted child to live godly lives. Of God is not convicting and teaching people how to overcome their sins then they are illegitimate and not true children of the Most High God. God does not only teach us what sin is according to Him, he empowers us to overcome. He lifts us up when we fall into a ditch the enemy digs and teaches us how to avoid such traps in the future. He is not a distant God but a living Father that walks with us through the valleys and mountains of our lives. Some days He carries us on wings of eagles and others He shelters us through the storms of our lives.
A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER walks with GOD daily and are ambassadors for the King to this world in need of His light and life giving water.
I know I am a BORN again believer.
A Pharisee is someone who teaches the Law and externally obeys but in their heart murders people daily. With their mouth they slander and lie but deny they have done any wrong. They do not repent or pray and seek God or His ways. They preach God's law without understanding the true depth of it but only judge people by external signs. They lack spiritual discernment and condemn people as lost fools who do not agree with them. They may speak from the Bible, but they lack power because their words contain no love for those they speak. Jesus called them whitewashed tombs. They look clean and pure on the outside but inside they are filled with dead men's bones. They seek to enslave those God has freed to the chains of condemnation and use God's law unlawfully to create their chains of lies and false doctrine.
I don't know why anyone would want to identify with Pharisees.
A
Yeah so have i, but I forgave them and we have a civil relationship because they normally apologize and call me sister after they calm down.
Most people attack because they feel like they are being attacked and I tend to step into he middle of fights (often oblivious to the tension, sometimes intentionally because God prompts me to try and speak to my brothers and sisters).
So I don't take the name calling personal because what is more important is what God calls me and He calls us His beloved children.
I don't like hyprocrisy.
I think it's hyprocritical to complain of behavior if you engage in the same by calling people wolves, nutcases, etc.
Not that you do that, just make an "observation" that will probably fall on deaf ears.
Most people attack because they feel like they are being attacked and I tend to step into he middle of fights (often oblivious to the tension, sometimes intentionally because God prompts me to try and speak to my brothers and sisters).
So I don't take the name calling personal because what is more important is what God calls me and He calls us His beloved children.
I don't like hyprocrisy.
I think it's hyprocritical to complain of behavior if you engage in the same by calling people wolves, nutcases, etc.
Not that you do that, just make an "observation" that will probably fall on deaf ears.
Matthew 13:14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
Ephesians 4:18-19 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
James 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom.
James 3:14-18 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
Luke 12:11-12 “When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the holy spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.”
Acts 4:31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the holy spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.
2 Peter 1:20-21 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s OWN INTERPRETATION. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but MEN SPOKE FROM GOD as they were carried along by the holy spirit.
Ephesians 4:18-19 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
James 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom.
James 3:14-18 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
Luke 12:11-12 “When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the holy spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.”
Acts 4:31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the holy spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.
2 Peter 1:20-21 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s OWN INTERPRETATION. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but MEN SPOKE FROM GOD as they were carried along by the holy spirit.
A
2 Peter 3
14Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures
14Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures
I put up two statements, two people who hold two different positions yet are similar.
I did not say I was either of them or anyone was any of them.
I created a picture, of similarity.
You want to miss the point I am making, which is certainty of salvation is the same
as saying one is Gods chosen, done deal idea. It suffers from the same hypocracy
and contradiction.
This is all I am saying. It is a point about presumption over humbleness and relationship.
The cross is enough, but to those who are emotionally closed down, they want a contract
written out, which they will present at the right time.
Ariel, you made a polarised assumption, which I thought I made clear what I was doing.
Obviously not. Is there a reason you jumped to this conclusion?
Do you even see what I was linking? Maybe I need to make it simpler.
I did not say I was either of them or anyone was any of them.
I created a picture, of similarity.
You want to miss the point I am making, which is certainty of salvation is the same
as saying one is Gods chosen, done deal idea. It suffers from the same hypocracy
and contradiction.
This is all I am saying. It is a point about presumption over humbleness and relationship.
The cross is enough, but to those who are emotionally closed down, they want a contract
written out, which they will present at the right time.
Ariel, you made a polarised assumption, which I thought I made clear what I was doing.
Obviously not. Is there a reason you jumped to this conclusion?
Do you even see what I was linking? Maybe I need to make it simpler.
A phrase from someone who decided I was totally wrong, unsaved, lost.
"You do not know what I believe"
"You have no idea about anything about me"
"You liar, deceiver, you evil creature" "Diablo"
"You insult, slander, lie continually about us"
"You are going to hell and sending others to hell"
So have I - and ironically from some of the very ones that say we are to walk in righteousness and purity of heart and to follow Christ. Go figure?
James 3:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.
A
This statement implies you stand with one or the other false positions you presented PeterJens.
"So my puzzle is not who I stand with but why people oppose me as an individual."
And it also makes it about YOU and ask people to tell you their issues with YOU.
When you say "believer" and "Pharisee"....well everyone knows you don't believe in "easy believism" so it's obvious you don't identify with "believer" description you gave....
"So my puzzle is not who I stand with but why people oppose me as an individual."
And it also makes it about YOU and ask people to tell you their issues with YOU.
When you say "believer" and "Pharisee"....well everyone knows you don't believe in "easy believism" so it's obvious you don't identify with "believer" description you gave....