Not By Works

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace,
You wrote a very nice post to me to which I wanted to reply. I've been busy but wanted to spend some time with it, instead this thread goes too fast and I can't find it anymore!

I agree with everything you say. The problem I have is that some people hear what they want to hear and not what the person is saying.

I was at a funeral mass the other day and a very nice priest (a friend) spoke about the DOOR, the GATE. You have to go through the gate. Who is the gate? Jesus. The RCC does teach belief in Jesus, but many do not HEAR this. At the luncheon I spoke about this and no one at that table (except for my born again daughter) understood what the priest said, although it could not be clearer.

SO, when a new Christian reads along, he might get the impression from reading certain things (which I happen to agree with)
that he JUST HAS TO HAVE FAITH IN JESUS, and all will be just fine --- when in reality Jesus said we are to do the work of the Kingdom.

I've thought about this and I believe the difficulty I personally have here is the Language we speak.

We talk about works...


Works are necessary as we all agree.
So maybe the problem is with the words "LAW" and "GRACE"?

A girl at out table told me she goes to Mass because she feels she has to. This is following the Law.
I told her it's like not even going, and she should go because she loves God. This is Grace.

She's still going to Mass, but one is efficacious and the other is of no value.
BOTH ARE A WORK.

Everything we do is a work. It's just that some have value and some don't.
We still must FOLLOW THE LAW. It was NOT abolished.
But the REASON we follow the Law and do works is what counts.

So, OF COURSE we are saved by faith ALONE.
Works come after.

When we say that FAITH ONLY STILL SAVES US AND CONTINUES TO SAVE US,
that's where I fear some may misunderstand.

Continued salvation, or progressive justification, or sanctification, ARE a cooperative effort which includes man.

AND we cannot say that God does everything in us.
If this were true, then He would also have to accept the responsibility when we do not listen to Him and sin.
WE are RESPONSIBLE for our once time decision (salvation) and our daily decisions (sanctification).

Thessalonians 3:11 tells us to work and not be idle. Paul meant real work, like at a job, however some had stopped doing everything and instead Paul said we are to continue to do everthing --- until the Lord returns. In verse 14 Paul goes so far as to say to not associate with those who do not obey his instructions.

Thessalonians 4:3 it is God's will that we be sanctified --- and then it goes on to say what we are not to do. Paul says that the Lord will punish those for such sins. This means that WE are responsible for our own sins and cannot blame God.

Paul goes on to say that God called us to live a holy life, and he who rejects this does not reject man but rejects God, who gives us the Holy Spirit.

Faith and belief in Jesus DOES CONTINUE to save us.
But what does BELIEF in Jesus mean?
Everyone here, including yourself, seems to understand Greek.
BELIEF in the Greek means TO FOLLOW, to AGREE WITH, TO OBEY.

So, my question is simple:
Is it correct to say that ONLY FAITH CONTINUES to save?
Or should we say that our OBEDIENCE of faith continues to save us?

Hey Fran.

I believe that none of us knows all things as ought to know it and your story about the priest saying Jesus is the door is a great example. Others that see the "other" aspects of the catholic belief system will reject everything and thus miss the fact that the priest said "Jesus is the gate".

Sometimes we Christians take what are descriptions of the life of Christ manifesting in and through us and then we can try to "dictate' His fruit and make it a requirement for on-going salvation in reference to living with Him for all eternity because we are joined as one spirit with Him in our inner man of the heart - the new creation in Christ.

Well, Jesus is the Savior - not ourselves. He supplies all the nutrients needed. In His grace faith is supplied.

To answer your question in brown above.

Obedience to the faith is what saves us for eternal life being brought to us - all because of Christ Himself. We can walk in the things of the life of Christ that is in us now by walking by the spirit and thus experience His life in us in this earth or walk by the flesh which brings destruction of some sort in this life.


The process for salvation as in being joined as one spirit with the Lord remains intact - no matter how much our stinking thinking gets screwed up because of the experiences we encounter in this life after we receive Christ.

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple.

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1)

the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2)

you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)

you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.

 

[Ariel82]

Hey,there are still some decent pastors out there too,EG.

 

[garee]

I just put two positions.
I related one to the failure of the pharisees as I see it and the other
to one who has faith of some sort and insists on certainty of going to heaven.

Two possible positions of understanding Him not seen, called walking.

Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

Either as new creatures we walk by the same spirit of faith ,Christ’s, the Holy Sprit of God, according as it is written .... or like the Pharisees with Sadducees who would not believe (work to exercise faith) unless they saw a sign created by a work they performed.
(self aproval).

If they loved someone or were working out a ceremonial law as a shadow of good things they would take that as evidence they have the Holy Spirit. They required a sign by some work they could do. They stumbled over the cross the emblem signifying the work he finished .

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,(look what I did) and the Greeks seek after wisdom(look how smart I am)
Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.(no faith)
Signs are for those who will not believe, not walking by faith, the unseen .Scripture calls them rebels or the confederate.

1Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Jesus said that those who walk after some work they perform as a sign that they are believers do not have the his words of faith abiding I them .Its what a hope of self rightousness produces (pride) , no faith.

Jesus does not receive honor from men as if he was served by human hands and neded something from the clay he is forming. It is why he said to the sign seekers below.

And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.I receive not honour from men. Joh 5:38

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is where we disagree.

You believe Jesus love is conditional on your obedience and lack of sin.

God says even when we are faithless. He is faithful to save us.

God loved us while we are sinners and He is mighty to save and teach His kids how to overcome. That is why He chastens people. If someone is ALREADY sinless,why would they need chastenment?

He saved the people in Egypt.. Unconditionally.

He promised Abraham an inheritance (and his children) Unconditionally

He promised David a house (family) which would endure forever (through Christ) Unconditionally.

The only conditional promise God made was mosaic law. And we could not keep out part of the agreement, So God could not keep his (it was conditional) thats why the unconditional agreement of Grace is our only hope.

People want to go back to law (works) and reject grace, And yet proclaim how holy they are. when they do not realise how unrighteous they really are.. This is the issue and the danger of works theology.

 

[PeterJens]

Hi PeterJens,

I haven't been here long but I have to agree with everything you say above.
---------

Seems like we've come a long way from the beginnings.
Was Christianity correct THEN or NOW??
This seems like an important question to me.

The title of this thread is Not By Works

Not by works what? That's all Jesus spoke about.

Thanks for the agreement.

"Not by works what? That's all Jesus spoke about."

I agree works are part of Christs message. It is like saying love is just a nice emotion
you feel but changes nothing. Or as one pop song said

"What has love got to do with it, It is just a second hand emotion"

Quality of life matter, and how we communicate. I met many believers who like the idea
of people helping themselves but social action was only for those so inspired, you got what
you deserved. Some said that being like the world and believing in Christ was the way to
show it is not a religion but a relationship. In a cultural sense this made sense, but not in
a moral and loving perspective sense.

Some here manage to confuse the two, and end up polarising around a group who agree and
the others. They often miss the fact they disagree with each other on quite a few fundamental
positions, but this is often secondary to the primary objective, of de-legalising the church. lol

Now if this was identification of sin in the heart, followed by repentance of ones sins and faith
in Christ for the forgiveness of sins, but often it is something different.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hey,there are still some decent pastors out there too,EG.

Oh I know..

But we still should not blindly follow them.. Test all spirits to see if they are from God,, I love my pastors and elders who teach me, But I do not trust them so much I would just follow them blindly In fact, they demand we test them out, Because they admit,, They are not perfect..

 

[Grace777x70]

Christians do not have sin in their hearts. This is where the true gospel is getting messed up by the religion of Christianity.

God gave us new hearts - this is our true identity. We will have the flesh with us until we die and go to be with the Lord. In the flesh is the power or law of sin and that has a "voice". The flesh is not the real us - we are responsible with what we do in our bodies.

When we die and go to be present with the Lord - the flesh will not go with us. Eventually we do get a new incorruptible body without sin in it but until then - if you go looking for sin - it's be a full time job and it's a deception from the enemy..

If any man be in Christ , he is a new creation - Behold - which means to look, to see, to perceive - all things are new.

Not understanding our true identity in Christ and thinking we have sin in our hearts creates a works-based religion of D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness because we think we need to get these things out of our heart.

This belief system will nullify the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ from operating in our lives like it was meant to for us to live in this present world.

Paul says "Walk by the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires."

 

[Ariel82]

My primary PeterJens is following God and speaking His truth.

Without double speak or hidden innuendo or false claims of what others believe.

 

[Ariel82]

We still have spiritual strongholds that lead to sin in our minds that need to be torn down G777.

 

[blue_ladybug]

I was just about to say that the Speak Your Mind thread isn't for debates like this, then I looked at the thread title and realized I'm on the Not By Works thread... hehehe

Carry on..

 

[Grace777x70]

We still have spiritual strongholds that lead to sin in our minds that need to be torn down G777.

Yes..the renewing of our minds to the truths in Christ and what He has already done for us are paramount to growing up in Him.

 

[BillG]

It is sad.

What is even sadder is people like Peter Jens (who fits every one of those comments) still will not repent, and try to figure out what ther people believe.

I have yet to see you say something about another person they did not believe, And if you did, I know you would repent if they corrected you on a particular issue you got wrong about them,, Which again, Peter and a few others refuse to do, Thats one of the reasons he get so much flack from many people

Thanks.

If ever I did say something like that or have gone over the top I am happy for any of you to let me know.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thanks.

If ever I did say something like that or have gone over the top I am happy for any of you to let me know.

I am the same way, we all need to be this way,,

 

[PeterJens]

That is where we disagree.
You believe Jesus love is conditional on your obedience and lack of sin.
God says even when we are faithless. He is faithful to save us.
God loved us while we are sinners and He is mighty to save and teach His kids how to overcome. That is why He chastens people. If someone is ALREADY sinless,why would they need chastenment?

"You believe Jesus love is conditional on your obedience and lack of sin."

I have never said this, I would call this an interpretation of my faith.
Jesus will save us because we have faith in Him.
Having faith in Him means obeying His commands, and walking in the Spirit.
The fruit of obedience and walking in the spirit is a righteous walk.
Now how far we progress to the image of Christ and how righteous our walk is
without stumbling, the Lord knows. But this is the goal.

The key issue for me is faith. The key fruit of this faith is a desire to walk righteously
without evil or sin. Theologically I see nothing stops us achieving this.

I would say our thinking needs to be transformed to know what is it to be one with
Christ and how we fail to understand ourselves and others around us so easily.

 

[Ariel82]

Yes..the renewing of our minds to the truths in Christ and what He has already done for us are paramount to growing up in Him.

Also learning what He wants done in this world for His glory is also important.

 

[Ariel82]

"

If you defile this with sin and loose your faith, so the relationship is broken."

So i don't get accused of "reading into" your words.

What happens to someone who has a dead broken relationship with God?

 

[PeterJens]

"

So i don't get accused of "reading into" your words.

What happens to someone who has a dead broken relationship with God?

The interesting thing with a lot of people who have backsliden, is they often still believe
in Christ and some come back to faith. The emotional reasons why they walk away seem
complicated.

Hebrews seems to suggest with a real break with God, there is no way back.
I think this is more of warning as to what happens to peoples hearts rather than a statement
if you come to the Lord and repent He will not open up the door.

What I wonder at is why this issue bothers you so? Is staying in love so hard, knowing love
flowing in your heart day after day?

Sin discourages our hearts. It takes away our faith and gives us an independant view of
life where that which used to inspire us becomes dead, and the world starts to look good.
Evil unrepented of is rebellion. How can we believe God will listen to us, when we stand
in rebellion? King David when confronted realised his state and repented. The Lord is
gracious, yet people are often so hard in their judgements.

When sin is a constant focus, where are our relationships or self understanding?
Do we care so little for others, we sin against them constantly?

 

[PeterJens]

My primary PeterJens is following God and speaking His truth.
Without double speak or hidden innuendo or false claims of what others believe.

Amen.

Do you know this difference between sarcasm and a complement?
A cultural context. This is why double speak or hidden innuendo or false claims needs to be
avoided. It can be hard to achieve without honest co-operation by parties and a good heart.

Sometimes it takes years and learning a cultural language.

 

[PeterJens]

Christians do not have sin in their hearts.

Blow me down. g7 is saying as believers we are born again with a pure heart,
without lusts of the flesh.

So the pornography problem with believers is actually because they are not believers.

That mucks up ones view of faith and transformation.

I notice how the argument goes from we are terrible sinners who can never attain to
purity of heart to we have pure hearts from day 1.

When you anchor belief in the word and ones experience, you come close to what is truth.
It stops this massive flipping of arguments depending on the audience. It is why I call this
type of approach a mirage.

 

[Ariel82]

"if you come to the Lord and repent He will not open up the door."

?????