Calvinism and Tulip theology

[Sac49]

The main argument here seems to be against unconditinal election, meaning that God chooses some for salvation and the rest are eternally damned. We see this as God not being a loving God. But God in His grace and mercy made a way thru Christ for us to be saved. So the question that remains is, do we choose God or did God choose us?

We seem to agree on total depravity meaning we are all born with a sin nature and are against God in that nature. Before Christ came to us we were all wicked. Psalm 10:4 "In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God". In our wickedness we were not seeking God. Romans 3:10-12 summary is "no one seeks for God" while in their sinnful ways.

So if in our wickedness we would never seek God how did we come to God? In our wickedness our thoughts were never upon God so why did we "all the sudden" start thinking about God? Would you say that you somehow on your own broke free from your own wickedness? Was it God who pulled you out of your wickedness? Do you on your own have power over sin? Without God first coming to you would you be able to free yourself from sin? Yes, we all have accepted Christ but did we accept Christ on our own or was it by the Holy Spirit first touching us (John 3:27)?

Here are just a few passages to read to ponder these questions. Exodus 33:19, Psalm 10:4, Romans 3:10-12, John 3:20, Isaiah 64:7 Isaiah 65:1, Romans 9:15,16, John 6:44,65, and Philippians 2:13.

 

[Johnny_B]

hey, how've you been?

there are some good resources on the 'net, and also a reformed theologian wrote a book called "What is Reformed Theology". (catchy title, right? lol)

his website is ligonier dot org.

sorry, everyone, i have a bad habit of starting at the end of a thread.

You can find what you are talking about at Free Reformed Resources if they are not what you are talking about that are great information on Reformed Theology.

 

[Johnny_B]

The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The main argument here seems to be against unconditinal election, meaning that God chooses some for salvation and the rest are eternally damned. We see this as God not being a loving God. But God in His grace and mercy made a way thru Christ for us to be saved. So the question that remains is, do we choose God or did God choose us?

We seem to agree on total depravity meaning we are all born with a sin nature and are against God in that nature. Before Christ came to us we were all wicked. Psalm 10:4 "In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God". In our wickedness we were not seeking God. Romans 3:10-12 summary is "no one seeks for God" while in their sinnful ways.

So if in our wickedness we would never seek God how did we come to God? In our wickedness our thoughts were never upon God so why did we "all the sudden" start thinking about God? Would you say that you somehow on your own broke free from your own wickedness? Was it God who pulled you out of your wickedness? Do you on your own have power over sin? Without God first coming to you would you be able to free yourself from sin? Yes, we all have accepted Christ but did we accept Christ on our own or was it by the Holy Spirit first touching us (John 3:27)?

Here are just a few passages to read to ponder these questions. Exodus 33:19, Psalm 10:4, Romans 3:10-12, John 3:20, Isaiah 64:7 Isaiah 65:1, Romans 9:15,16, John 6:44,65, and Philippians 2:13.

We come to God by hearing the Gospel. This is why evangelism is soo important

 

[Roughsoul1991]

We have the same Bible yet both sides (calvanist and Arminian believers) are so sure they have it right.

I read the interpretation of verses from both sides and can see how both find evidence to believe want they want to believe.
Example.. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain..."

1. Some Calvinists (and Augustine) have argued that this is a proof text for unconditional election, emphasizing the irrelevance of human choice.
2. Arminians point out that the statement is made to the disciples with reference to their apostleship, not to their salvation. This interpretation accords well with the next phrase "that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain." See also Jn. 6:70 referring to the same choice. Judas was chosen but not saved.

I can't believe that a Just, Loving, and Holy God can love some (the elect) and not love the rest. This teaching is not in line with the Bible because the Bible tells me that God wants all to be saved and God is Just.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I know you'll say i've twisted it or don't understand it rightly, but this (below) is what Calvinism is telling me. (just being honest.)
If in fact Calvinism were God's actual plan, than before the foundation of the world He elected some to be saved the ELECT, and some to remain lost, then the list is complete and nothing you or I will change that, it is His Will, His List, and His Plan, (Done and finished). Thus, there is no need for church, no need for witnessing, no need for trying to live a righteous life at all, simply go through life and live the way you want and IF you are on the list, you will be saved somehow, someway, because you are the ELECT. Finished ...

But if Arminianism were God's actual plan then there is definitely a need to carry out Jesus' command in Matthew 28 to teach and baptist in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, because unless a free will soul can be convinced of salvation they will be lost. Moreover, then John 3:16 is not made a lie but Truth in that the offer of salvation is for the whole world that "whosoever" (not elect only) can be saved and thus there is a need for the church, witnessing, and trying to live a life that points to Jesus, because the price was payed for all souls.

Amen context always wins

 

[Johnny_B]

Reformed Justification by Philip Graham Rykan, he took over the 10th Presbyterian Church when James M. Boice died.

 

[Johnny_B]

Here are some articles on the Reformed Doctrine of Atonement there are more that one choice. There are some e-books as well, it is on page 2, so many choices.

 

[SovereignGrace]

We come to God by hearing the Gospel. This is why evangelism is soo important

What about those who died never hearing the gospel?

 

[Grace777x70]

We have the same Bible yet both sides (calvanist and Arminian believers) are so sure they have it right.

I read the interpretation of verses from both sides and can see how both find evidence to believe want they want to believe.
Example.. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain..."

1. Some Calvinists (and Augustine) have argued that this is a proof text for unconditional election, emphasizing the irrelevance of human choice.
2. Arminians point out that the statement is made to the disciples with reference to their apostleship, not to their salvation. This interpretation accords well with the next phrase "that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain." See also Jn. 6:70 referring to the same choice. Judas was chosen but not saved.

I can't believe that a Just, Loving, and Holy God can love some (the elect) and not love the rest. This teaching is not in line with the Bible because the Bible tells me that God wants all to be saved and God is Just.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I know you'll say i've twisted it or don't understand it rightly, but this (below) is what Calvinism is telling me. (just being honest.)
If in fact Calvinism were God's actual plan, than before the foundation of the world He elected some to be saved the ELECT, and some to remain lost, then the list is complete and nothing you or I will change that, it is His Will, His List, and His Plan, (Done and finished). Thus, there is no need for church, no need for witnessing, no need for trying to live a righteous life at all, simply go through life and live the way you want and IF you are on the list, you will be saved somehow, someway, because you are the ELECT. Finished ...

But if Arminianism were God's actual plan then there is definitely a need to carry out Jesus' command in Matthew 28 to teach and baptist in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, because unless a free will soul can be convinced of salvation they will be lost. Moreover, then John 3:16 is not made a lie but Truth in that the offer of salvation is for the whole world that "whosoever" (not elect only) can be saved and thus there is a need for the church, witnessing, and trying to live a life that points to Jesus, because the price was payed for all souls.

I agree.....the idea that God on purpose rejects and forces certain people to not believe in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection is a major violation of the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place and it is also a major violation of the very nature and character of God.

The heart of man is not designed to be trust in "such a being" that would do this and the truth is God does not pick certain people on purpose for heaven and others for hell.

Jesus is the Elect and the Chosen One and all that believe in Him become one spirit with Him and thus they too are partakers of the elect and they become the chosen ones in Him.

Here is a short 6 minute video that shows the reality behind predestination and being the "elect" and it is completely in line with the nature and true character of God.

[video=youtube;d4Ewsad_yEk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Ewsad_yEk&t=117s[/video]

 

[SovereignGrace]

I agree.....the idea that God on purpose rejects and forces certain people to not believe in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection is a major violation of the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place and it is also a major violation of the very nature and character of God.

The heart of man is not designed to be trust in "such a being" that would do this and the truth is God does not pick certain people on purpose for heaven and others for hell.

Jesus is the Elect and the Chosen One and all that believe in Him become one spirit with Him and thus they too are partakers of the elect and they become the chosen ones in Him.

Here is a short 6 minute video that shows the reality behind predestination and being the "elect" and it is completely in line with the nature and true character of God.

[video=youtube;d4Ewsad_yEk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Ewsad_yEk&t=117s[/video]

God does not have to force ppl to not believe, it comes naturally to them.

2 Corinthians 2:14...

 

[notuptome]

What about those who died never hearing the gospel?

According to the bible Gods revelation is all around them in nature. There is no excuse for not believing because God reveals Himself to everyman. The problem is that they do not like God and go about to change Him into someone more palatable.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Ariel82]

Whitefield's response to Wesley.

Free grace indeed! A letter to the Reverend Mr. John Wesley, relating to his sermon against absolute election; published under the title of Free grace.

It's worth reading if you have the time.

 

[SovereignGrace]

According to the bible Gods revelation is all around them in nature. There is no excuse for not believing because God reveals Himself to everyman. The problem is that they do not like God and go about to change Him into someone more palatable.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Natural revelation reveals there is God, but not the Christ dying for them. There is no gospel in natural revelation.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

What about those who died never hearing the gospel?

Romans 1:20New International Version (NIV)

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Romans 2:12New International Version (NIV)

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Romans 2:14-15New International Version (NIV)

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

Moral law or Law of Nature are held as long as the searing of the conscience hasn't happened.

The only people with an excuse are the ones under the age of accountability and the mentally handicap. The ones who are not mature enough to know the difference between right and wrong, who cant understand.

Romans 5
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Romans 7:9
9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Obviously in the days before the written law sin was still punishable giving reference to the flood and cain knew he had screwed up when he murdered his brother. The moral law is active in all who are created in the image of God.

But its obvious that where there is no understanding of both the law written on the heart and law of moses, then sin cannot be accounted.

Which also means every child is born in the book of life. Only implying that later in maturity the moral law or law of moses brings forth acknowledgment of sin. Which brings a state living in eternal death and in need of a savior.

Which is proof of a choice, free will and God chose all who will just believe giving everyone a choice.

 

[FranC]

We have the same Bible yet both sides (calvanist and Arminian believers) are so sure they have it right.

I read the interpretation of verses from both sides and can see how both find evidence to believe want they want to believe.
Example.. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain..."

1. Some Calvinists (and Augustine) have argued that this is a proof text for unconditional election, emphasizing the irrelevance of human choice.
2. Arminians point out that the statement is made to the disciples with reference to their apostleship, not to their salvation. This interpretation accords well with the next phrase "that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain." See also Jn. 6:70 referring to the same choice. Judas was chosen but not saved.

I can't believe that a Just, Loving, and Holy God can love some (the elect) and not love the rest. This teaching is not in line with the Bible because the Bible tells me that God wants all to be saved and God is Just.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I know you'll say i've twisted it or don't understand it rightly, but this (below) is what Calvinism is telling me. (just being honest.)
If in fact Calvinism were God's actual plan, than before the foundation of the world He elected some to be saved the ELECT, and some to remain lost, then the list is complete and nothing you or I will change that, it is His Will, His List, and His Plan, (Done and finished). Thus, there is no need for church, no need for witnessing, no need for trying to live a righteous life at all, simply go through life and live the way you want and IF you are on the list, you will be saved somehow, someway, because you are the ELECT. Finished ...

But if Arminianism were God's actual plan then there is definitely a need to carry out Jesus' command in Matthew 28 to teach and baptist in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, because unless a free will soul can be convinced of salvation they will be lost. Moreover, then John 3:16 is not made a lie but Truth in that the offer of salvation is for the whole world that "whosoever" (not elect only) can be saved and thus there is a need for the church, witnessing, and trying to live a life that points to Jesus, because the price was payed for all souls.

TMS, you're not twisting anything.
You got it right.

What bothers me most about Calvinism is that it totally changes the nature of God.
If Calvinists are happy serving a God that actually decides, somehow, who will go to hell without giving that person a chance at salvation, then I hope they're happy people.

It scares me to death. I'm happy not to be serving such a God but one who loves the WHOLE WORLD, as in WHOLE WORLD, not just the elect in the world --- not THAT is twisting scripture. And much twisting has to be done to change the character of the Almighty God who created the universe and everything in it.

In fact, I'd say that's blasphemous. Attributing to God a negative and evil quality as if to satan.
It would have to be a very evil quality to banish some to hell.

Also, doctrinally this is very wrong because if it were true, then there would be no personal responsibility for sin.
How could we be responsible for sin if it is GOD who chooses those who will follow Him and those who won't?

And yet we are exhorted throughout the N.T. not to live a life of sin. Why would this be so if Calvanism was correct?
1 Corinthians 5:9-11 tells how not to live, what sins are. Why would Paul spend any time on this at all if we were not responsible for our sins?

So, if we are responsible, then it must mean that I have a free will. A free will to choose God.

Did Adam have a free will to eat of the fruit?
Why didn't God stop him?
Because it depends on Adam and all those who came after him to determine if they want to go to be with God or the enemy.

 

[Rockrz]

What about those who died never hearing the gospel?

Can you find the NT scripture stating man is without excuse and even looking at nature man can tell God exists?

It would be unjust for anyone to be cast in to hell without having had opportunity to know about Salvation thru Jesus Christ so you can relax... one way or another man is without excuse.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Can you find the NT scripture stating man is without excuse and even looking at nature man can tell God exists?

It would be unjust for anyone to be cast in to hell without having had opportunity to know about Salvation thru Jesus Christ so you can relax... one way or another man is without excuse.

Great, I love the assault on the gospel of the Christ. According to the view(s) of the last few posts, the gospel is a message of doom and not hope.

Those who have not heard the gospel, once they hear it and reject it, they are NOW doomed to hell. But if they did not hear it and die before hearing it, are ushered into heaven.

Sola Scriptura and Solus Christus are being assaulted on here. Sad. Really sad.

 

[preacher4truth]

Great, I love the assault on the gospel of the Christ. According to the view(s) of the last few posts, the gospel is a message of doom and not hope.

Those who have not heard the gospel, once they hear it and reject it, they are NOW doomed to hell. But if they did not hear it and die before hearing it, are ushered into heaven.

Sola Scriptura and Solus Christus are being assaulted on here. Sad. Really sad.

Bro, if you gave that callow fellow the Scripture he requested he'd deny it and rend it, mock and ridicule, all the usual drivel and banter.

And you're correct, they just don't think about what they say and how what they teach and believe on here literally shows they really do not fully believe the Gospel, so they make up their own version.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Can you find the NT scripture stating man is without excuse and even looking at nature man can tell God exists?

Man is w/o excuse, and never stated otherwise. Those who die never hearing the gospel have the Law written upon their hearts and know there is a Creator. Psalm 19 also attests to this.

It would be unjust for anyone to be cast in to hell without having had opportunity to know about Salvation thru Jesus Christ

You have the wrong view of justice. Justice demands punishment. When someone murders another, the family demands justice. They want the murderer to pay for that sin. God's justice demands punishment for His brokem Law. God is not unjust for withholding grace from anyone. Romans 9:20 in full display.

so you can relax... one way or another man is without excuse.

There is no one way or another about this...man IS w/o excuse, period.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Bro, if you gave that callow fellow the Scripture he requested he'd deny it and rend it, mock and ridicule, all the usual drivel and banter.

And you're correct, they just don't think about what they say and how what they teach and believe on here literally shows they really do not fully believe the Gospel, so they make up their own version.

Didn't we just talk about this earlier? Oyyyyyyyyy!!!!