TRIBULATION LIE

[Rockrz]

Jesus is already here ruling the nations with a rod of iron

If He is... He is doing a very, very poor job of it!

Look around... nations all over this world are running amuck so your comment is not true.

There will be a 1000 Year Reign where Jesus Christ will literally be King over all the earth and there will be no more war, sickness, disease, hunger, etc,etc.

 

[PlainWord]

If He is... He is doing a very, very poor job of it!

Look around... nations all over this world are running amuck so your comment is not true.

There will be a 1000 Year Reign where Jesus Christ will literally be King over all the earth and there will be no more war, sickness, disease, hunger, etc,etc.

Where do you get that idea from?

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

He hasn't put all enemies under His feet yet. Death hasn't been destroyed yet. The no more sickness and death, etc describes the eternal state.

 

[PlainWord]

If He is... He is doing a very, very poor job of it!

Look around... nations all over this world are running amuck so your comment is not true.

There will be a 1000 Year Reign where Jesus Christ will literally be King over all the earth and there will be no more war, sickness, disease, hunger, etc,etc.

The reign of Christ was a present reality in Paul’s day. The prophets had described how Christ’s reign would begin. Daniel, more than 500 years before Christ was born, saw a clear vision of the future Messiah:

“one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed” (Daniel 7:13–14).

The Messianic "1,000 year" (which simply means "long period of time") reign would begin after Jesus ascended in clouds to heaven in 30 AD. It doesn't begin thousands of years later when He returns to earth. This idea of a literal, physical earthly reign in some future temple is nonsense, an invention of those who developed the idea because they didn't understand the spiritual nature and immediate nature of the Kingdom.

Paul and the other apostles spoke of Christ’s kingdom as a reality in their day. Peter spoke of the fulfillment of God’s thousand-year-old promise to David: God “would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.” God had fulfilled that promise in the resurrection of Christ (Acts 2:30–31).

Stephen saw Christ standing at the right hand of God. The establishment of Christ’s reign through his death, burial, resurrection, and ascension is a fundamental and necessary element in the gospel of the kingdom. So many Christians continue to wait for the Kingdom to be established in a physical way not realizing we are ALREADY a part of the spiritual kingdom that will never be destroyed. We are already "singular stones" making up the spiritual temple with Christ as our Chief Cornerstone.

First understand the purpose of His reign. Christ is on the throne, right now!! Christ is reigning in order to “put all enemies under his feet.” Christ and his kingdom are, in our day, at (spiritual) war with the gods of this world. The gospel declares that the kingdom will successfully overcome them all—with an important caveat—during the Messianic age. As I pointed out, the Mosaic Age ended in 70 AD, 40 years after the Cross.

We need to understand the progressive nature of the kingdom’s conquest. The kingdom would not overcome its enemies all at once through some catastrophic event. The New Testament also teaches, as we would expect, this gradual increase of kingdom power and influence. The small kingdom mustard seed grows over time to become a large tree (Matthew 13:31–32). Kingdom leaven progressively exerts its influence until the whole lump is leavened (Matthew 13:33). Now that it is established, Christ’s kingdom will grow, fill the earth, and overcome its enemies in the process.

I hope this helps and blesses those who read this.

 

[PlainWord]

yes we all can tell he is ruling with a fist of iron.......BUT then Maybe not just YET!

John the Baptist said, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

If the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand when Christ was on earth, how can it be a future event yet to be established thousands of years later?

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

Folks, the Kingdom of Heaven is not a physical, visible earthly kingdom that can be seen, like the Roman Empire. One must be saved to enter the Kingdom of God. We then become a tiny piece of the Kingdom along with all those who went before us.

Paul taught:

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love...

Do you have peace and joy in the HS or are you still waiting?

The Kingdom of God is spiritual. It does not come with observation.

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation..."

So if you are still waiting to see the Kingdom come, then you have missed it.

 

[PlainWord]

Ok this is just not true. The most 'blessed' nations from an earthly perspective ARE the very wicked atheist european nations, they are doing the best financialy and have great life expectancy, healthcare, quality of life, clean air, clean water etc.

Also if all this chaos and wickedness in the nations is Jesus ruling with a rod of iron? Wow. What a statement, back to the drawingboard with you.

You forget that Satan will be loosened when the "thousand years" are over to once again "deceive the nations." You are simply looking at the moral state of the nations today without regard to their moral state in the past.

The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed. It was tiny when planted but will slowly grow into a big tree.

Daniel was shown this in another way. "And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth."

Christ was the stone which struck the image.

"For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, As the waters cover the sea."

The above is a gradual event. It doesn't happen in an instance. Christ must reign (in a spiritual sense) until He puts all enemies under His feet. This means the enemies are present at the same time in constant spiritual warfare with Christ and His kingdom, of which we are a part. In the end, Christ wins.

 

[PlainWord]

The main problem most have with accepting that the "great tribulation" happened to Israel in 70 AD and that it's over I think are these cosmic events which Jesus describes as predecessors to His coming.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

These signs represent pending divine judgment of the Nation of Israel. Jesus is simply using the same familiar apocalyptic symbolism that the OT prophets used to foretell the fall of Egypt, the fall of Babylon and the fall of Idumea. Isaiah uses almost exactly the same language that Jesus used to describe what would proceed the fall of Babylon:

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. (Isaiah 13:9–13).

Many wrongly think this passage from Isaiah and Mat 24:29-30 are discussing the same event, the future end of the world. Not so!! God told the prophet about the coming “cosmic collapse,” and he revealed the instrument by which it would occur. He went on to say:

“Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it” (Isaiah 13:17).

The fulfillment of this prophecy occurred when “the Medes put their fierce fighting force at the disposal of Cyrus the Persian and were involved with him in the overthrow of Babylonia in 539 B.C.” God, using the armies of the Medes, brought an end to Babylon’s world! Just as He used the Roman armies to bring to an end the Nation of Israel in 70 AD.

Ezekiel uses the same or similar imagery to discuss the fate of the Egyptians.

Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him. . . . And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD. I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known. (Ezekiel 32:2, 7–9).

See the same symbolism to discuss the fate of the Idumeans, again by Isaiah:

Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. (Isaiah 34:3–6).

So, what we have in Mat 24 is Christ borrowing the same familiar "cosmic catastrophe" symbolism well known to His disciples to speak of the future complete and utter destruction of the Nation of Israel, that wicked adulterous nation which would soon reject and crucify Him in mere days.

This practice of using the imagery of the OT prophets to discuss divine judgment was copied by John in much of Revelation. Not being first century Jews, the symbolism is lost on us.

 

[PlainWord]

Ezra Gould’s comments on the Olivet Discourse support my conclusion. While explaining Mark 13:24, he says:

This darkening and fall of the heavenly bodies is so common an accompaniment of O.T. prophecy, and its place is so definitely and certainly fixed there, as belonging to the apocalyptic imagery of prophecy . . . that it presents no difficulty whatever, and does not even create a presumption in favor of the view that this is a prophecy of the final catastrophe.

By “final catastrophe” Gould means the end of world history. Nothing in the “immediate signs” suggests Jesus had that catastrophe in mind. In fact, after these signs are given, there are still nations on earth for Him to separate. There are nations for Him to rule with a "rod of iron." He must and does rule until He puts all enemies under His feet. Until death is destroyed, Christ's reign will continue and is continuing.

Okay, I'm done. People who bring their preconceived notions about how events will unfold are usually too rigid to change their views or open their minds to other possibilities.

 

[Bladerunner]

John the Baptist said, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

If the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand when Christ was on earth, how can it be a future event yet to be established thousands of years later?

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

Folks, the Kingdom of Heaven is not a physical, visible earthly kingdom that can be seen, like the Roman Empire. One must be saved to enter the Kingdom of God. We then become a tiny piece of the Kingdom along with all those who went before us.

Paul taught:

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love...

Do you have peace and joy in the HS or are you still waiting?

The Kingdom of God is spiritual. It does not come with observation.

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation..."

So if you are still waiting to see the Kingdom come, then you have missed it.

plainword....thought I blocked you out....my mistake.....but you still have not changed.

 

[PlainWord]

plainword....thought I blocked you out....my mistake.....but you still have not changed.

Why, do you have a problem with free speech and the free expression and sharing of ideas, or only when those ideas don't agree with your own?

 

[buddyt]

samuel23
I have to somewhat agree with you Brother. Those who refuse to believe the word or correctly understand are in for a rude awakening. For anyone to think that Gods wrath won't be tribulation they really don't know what the word means. I don't think it's any more than not understanding the word. To listen to the teachings of man. This group with this kind of view will be those who jump into Satan's camp and take his mark. They'll be waiting to be flown out of here until the two witnesses show up.

 

[Bladerunner]

Why, do you have a problem with free speech and the free expression and sharing of ideas, or only when those ideas don't agree with your own?

I don't you are free to speak as much as you. BUT I do not have to take part in it for that to happen!!!!

 

[Bladerunner]

I don't disagree. you are free to speak as much as you want. BUT I do not have to take part in it for that to happen!!!!

Have a Blessed day

 

[GaryA]

OK do you want to give the scripture where they came from...I guess I could probably find them but I want to be sure I am seeing the same verses you are.

Look in the quote bubbles in post #483.

NO I have nothing to prove,,,you do.

So -- you are saying that you are [ actually ] not willing to go look at a particular post for the scripture references that you are asking me to give you...???

BTW - I am not trying to prove anything at the moment; rather, I am only asking some questions -- which are represented in post #483.

The scripture references are in post #483...

I am making this REALLY easy for you - "out of the goodness of my heart" -- however, you must be willing to lift-a-finger and make a little effort...

Can you possibly handle a mouse click...?????

 

[GaryA]

GaryA..... You believe the Church has to go through the tribulations. WHY???

Because "the Bible says so"...

'tribulations' & 'Great Tribulation' - yes

'Wrath of God' - no

 

[GaryA]

Gary, Buddy, why do you place a 2,000 year gap between Mat 24:3-6 and 7-14?

I only place verses 7-8 at a much later time. Verse 9 is a continuation of verse 6.

Why?

Well, "for starters"...

The 'grammar of the language'.

The phrase "the end is not yet" in verse 6, followed by 'For' in verse 7.

The phrase "But before all these" in Luke 21:12. <<<<<<<<<< A REALLY REALLY BIG CLUE!!!



Please look at the 'Chronological Order' chart / table at the bottom of my 'Olivet Discourse' web page...

 

[PlainWord]

I only place verses 7-8 at a much later time. Verse 9 is a continuation of verse 6.

Why?

Well, "for starters"...

The 'grammar of the language'.

The phrase "the end is not yet" in verse 6, followed by 'For' in verse 7.

The phrase "But before all these" in Luke 21:12. <<<<<<<<<< A REALLY REALLY BIG CLUE!!!



Please look at the 'Chronological Order' chart / table at the bottom of my 'Olivet Discourse' web page...

But there is no reason to jump back and forth 2,000 years. The topic is/was the destruction of the temple and the end of the age. Well, the end of the Jewish age ended with the destruction of the temple. Everything Christ discussed, including His return, happened from the time He said it to 70 AD.

The "end of the age" is NOT the "end of the world." The Jewish age or Mosaic Age was coming to an end. Once the temple was gone, there could be no more sacrifices. The unbelieving, Jesus rejecting Jews, were to be punished. The faithful elect were to be spared.

Have you read "War of the Jews" yet? If not, I highly encourage you to read it, which you can do on-line. It will leave no doubt that everything in the "beginning of sorrows" happened before 66 AD and the great tribulation happened from 66-70 AD then came the "return of Christ's presence" and the end of the Mosaic age.

 

[PlainWord]

Everything in the Olivet Discourse is over.

It all came to "THAT" generation that was on earth with Jesus. It dealt with the Jews and their punishment for rejecting, and killing, their Messiah. The Bible is very clear about this.

 

[GaryA]

The phrase "But before all these" in Luke 21:12. <<<<<<<<<< A REALLY REALLY BIG CLUE!!!

But there is no reason to jump back and forth 2,000 years.

For the moment, forget the 2000 years.

Think only in terms of Order of Events.

Do you accept that the phrase "But before all these" in Luke 21:12 [ clearly ] indicates that "what follows" actually occurs before "what precedes" that verse?

 

[popeye]

samuel23
I have to somewhat agree with you Brother. Those who refuse to believe the word or correctly understand are in for a rude awakening. For anyone to think that Gods wrath won't be tribulation they really don't know what the word means. I don't think it's any more than not understanding the word. To listen to the teachings of man. This group with this kind of view will be those who jump into Satan's camp and take his mark. They'll be waiting to be flown out of here until the two witnesses show up.

God removes his people. It is his pattern.

Baby Jesus,removed before Judgement.
Lot removed
Noah removed into the ark (a type of heaven)
the Jews in revelation removed,then pursued by satan with a flood.
The church removed.
"one taken,one left" = half the church removed
5 wise virgins removed,5 left to suffer.
Jerusalem burned in 70 ad and not one christian dies. Why? because they weren't there. they removed themselves PREJUDGEMENT
There is zero evidence God returns post judgment to deliver his people. Man,men,and doctrines,made up the post judgement deliverance.

It's like a man who sees a thug stetting fire to his house,but trusting in praying to save his children while he watches it burn.
So insane.Anyone can see the insanity in that. Any sane person simple ushers the children out of the house.
Last days deception.

 

[valiant]

If He is... He is doing a very, very poor job of it!

He rules with a rod of iron (judgmentally), not a shepherd's crook, But His way is succeeding. The elect will all be won.

Look around... nations all over this world are running amuck so your comment is not true.

But the six seals tell us all is under control. He is accomplishing His will. So your comment is untrue.

There will be a 1000 Year Reign where Jesus Christ will literally be King over all the earth and there will be no more war, sickness, disease, hunger, etc,etc.

LOL and the king will rule so incompetently that in spite of knowing what is coming it ends in disaster. Dream on.