Calvinists,Im Asking...

[Depleted]

Granted it was Luther who was outright anti-semitic,no doubt about that. But Calvin said of the Jews


"Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.


​Thats quite a comment...

Did you know the anarchists in America are often led by Jews? Those same people who make up scripts for Hollywood entertainment saying that any religion is acceptable except Christianity, the ones presenting MSM, and threatening the lives of the Republican politicians and their families are quite often Jews.

Have we become such doormats that we don't notice?

 

[Depleted]

Thanks brother,I was headed for this very excerpt of Scripture. And now the thread is about to get nasty. I had thought the majority here said they either did not hold to Calvin nor read him.Now Im about to get stoned for criticizing what he said.

No more than I criticize in the News Forum.

I do find it ironic that "Calvinists" are constantly criticized on this site, and yet simply because we accept that Calvin was a fallible man, now we're going to "stone" you.

 

[Depleted]

The Pharisees, whats your point? God is for Israel, and the Jewish people.

The Pharisees were Jews!

 

[phil36]

Yes,I have actually.I nice big thick book on the history of the church actually,among others. I understand that there were contributions made by many that I would disagree with in theology. I disagree with Luther and others.But just because they made contributions doesn't mean all they taught was correct or the way in which they acted,their character is not relevant to the discussion.

Hi Kaylagrl,

Sorry, maybe you misunderstood my question? I asked have you read any of Calvin's work on the Christian Faith? His 'institutes' or any of his commentaries. I did not mean have you read books written about him.

Its good you have a big thick book on church history, what is the name of it and who wrote the article on Calvin, might an interesting read.. I like to read church history.

 

[kaylagrl]

Why? Should you be spending your time making a clear separation between Wesley and Arminius?

I could really care less honestly. I believe what I believe based on Scripture as you do and Im not Wesleyan,Im Pentecostal. Id never heard of Arminius till this thread. Lets start a thread on that and hash it out.But why are people defensive over Calvin after saying they dont read him or want to be identified with his name? I dont get why people turned so quickly to defend his comments.

 

[Depleted]

​What is Gods?...

Love, wrath, mercy, justice, long-suffering, holy/perfect. And yours?

 

[trofimus]

I dont get why people turned so quickly to defend his comments.

Its probably because most of reformed Christians are not as pro-semitic as you are, being pentecostal and probably dispensationalist. Thats why what sounds terrible to you does not sound so terribly to us.

Simple.

 

[kaylagrl]

And we are therefore different than God, who did, BTW, kill people in OT and NT for far less?

​Not quite sure where you're headed with that one lol

 

[Depleted]

Depleted, the difference is that double predestination assumes God actively forces people to sin and deny him while the other view is that they do this themselves and God changes the nature of some so that they may be free from this and turn to him. This is why I think equal ultimacy is a better term. Still, I realize that God created all things knowing billions would reject him so this is in a way predestination, but I think the better term would be predetermination. It was predetermined that mankind would do this, but they were not forced by the hand of God to do so.

Whether someone is Arminian or Calvinist, this is an undeniable truth. The only ones who reject this (within the sphere of Chhristianity at least)) would be Open Theists or Molinists. But again, Open Theists teach damnable heresies and Molinists have to deal with the paradox of free will and the predetermination involved in the creation decree.

But I don't think predestination is forcing, unless you want to think God took me out of death and Death Row by force. In which case, YIPPEE! Thank you, Lord!

It sounds like people have a misunderstanding of predestination more than double-predestination is wrong.

 

[preacher4truth]

That isn't what is being done. Rather you should take the verse you've presented and consider what the apostle says about the Jews, and Israel in Romans 11. They are not incompatible, its all addressed in Romans 11. "All Israel shall be saved."

That's right, "all Israel", and that isn't limited to "Jews" or "national Israelites." Galatians 6:16, Romans 2:29? Dispensationalism has gone mad.

 

[ForthAngel]

But I don't think predestination is forcing, unless you want to think God took me out of death and Death Row by force. In which case, YIPPEE! Thank you, Lord!

It sounds like people have a misunderstanding of predestination more than double-predestination is wrong.

The idea of double predestination itself assumes that people are actively forced by God to make choices though, like little puppets. That's why I don't like to use the term. We both agree that God causes us to turn to him actively, but he doesn't have to actively cause someone to reject him. Slight difference in that and double predestination, but that slight difference makes all the difference

 

[kaylagrl]

You do not understand. I do not want any web source. I want to read them in the book by Calvin

I also read "About Jews and their lies" from Luther and it actually was not as terrible as it is said on various hysterical websites. So I want to make my own picture.

And I recommend the same for anybody.

Humm so you want me to send you book with Calvins quotes in them? Not sure I can do that. If you dont trust anything on the internet we're kinda out of luck huh?

 

[trofimus]

The idea of double predestination itself assumes that people are actively forced by God to make choices though, like little puppets. That's why I don't like to use the term. We both agree that God causes us to turn to him actively, but he doesn't have to actively cause someone to reject him. Slight difference in that and double predestination, but that slight difference makes all the difference

Not giving enough grace to them who are not elected is a double predestination, IMHO.

Choices are not forced to any group, neither elect nor non-elect.

 

[trofimus]

Humm so you want me to send you book with Calvins quotes in them? Not sure I can do that. If you dont trust anything on the internet we're kinda out of luck huh?

Just tell mi their titles.

I have enough sources to read those books.

 

[kaylagrl]

Did you know the anarchists in America are often led by Jews? Those same people who make up scripts for Hollywood entertainment saying that any religion is acceptable except Christianity, the ones presenting MSM, and threatening the lives of the Republican politicians and their families are quite often Jews.

Have we become such doormats that we don't notice?

I believe the Jews have been blinded and I believe they are in error and are being disobedient to God,but I still believe they are His chosen people.

 

[ForthAngel]

Not giving enough grace to those who are not elected is double predestination, IMHO.

Choices are not forced to any group, neither elect nor non-elect.

Double predestination isn't the same. God takes an active part in our conversion. It's a show of power by changing our nature from carnal to spiritual. The spiritual rebirth is an act of God, while no action is necessary on the part of God for the lost person. God leaves them to their devices.

Double predestination assumes an action on God's part to force the lost person to reject him. Really not the same thing at all. God is passive in one instance and active in the other. That's the difference.

 

[trofimus]

Double predestination isn't the same. God takes an active part in our conversion. It's a show of power by changing our nature from carnal to spiritual. The spiritual rebirth is an act of God, while no action is necessary on the part of God for the lost person. God leaves them to their devices.

Double predestination assumes an action on God's part to force the lost person to reject him. Really not the same thing at all. God is passive in one instance and active in the other. That's the difference.

Being passive does not contradict the eternal decree about being passive, i.e. predestination...

Also, there are some Scriptures saying that God actively hardens heart etc.

 

[ForthAngel]

Being passive does not contradict the eternal decree about being passive, i.e. predestination...

Also, there are some Scriptures saying that God actively hardens heart etc.

That I can agree on, but like I said, I like the term predetermined. God predetermined that man would reject him and said let it be so during creation. Beyond that, there was no forcing on God's part to make man sin. We chose to do so. Either way, there is no way to reconcile autonomous will to God's omniscience which is why I feel Arminians become so inconsistent in their free will doctrine. In reality, they have to deny God's omniscience and lower it to that of some esoteric knowledge based on him "gazing into the future" as if he didn't decree all things from the beginning and know the outcome.

 

[garee]

That isn't what is being done. Rather you should take the verse you've presented and consider what the apostle says about the Jews, and Israel in Romans 11. They are not incompatible, its all addressed in Romans 11. "All Israel shall be saved."

Which all Israel, inward jews born agin of the Spirt of Chrsit or outward in respect to thier corrutped flesh .This is seeing if any person has not the Spirt of Chrsit they simply do not belong to Him

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

All Israel are not Israel as the bride of Christ or born again Jews. Jews in respect to the inward, born again of the Spirit of Christ, and not outward in respect to their corrupted flesh. We simply do not know Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God after any rudiment of this world. Even Christ of his own self clearly said his flesh does not profit as if it was Spirit.

Why in the world would a person desire glory in the flesh of any man is a puzzle?

All Israel is not the Israel as the bride of Christ is Israel as born again Jews. Those Jews in respect to the inward born of the Spirit of Christ not outward in respect to their corrupted flesh. We simply do not know Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God after any rudiment of this world. Even Christ of his own self said his flesh does not profit as if it were Spirit. Why in the world a person desire in the glory in flesh of any man is a puzzle.

God is eternal Spirit, not a man as us

Christian is the new name “God named” his born again people, previously call Jews or Israel.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Below a inward Jew is rebuking one that is outward of the flesh and not inward of the Holy Spirit.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

 

[kaylagrl]

No more than I criticize in the News Forum.

I do find it ironic that "Calvinists" are constantly criticized on this site, and yet simply because we accept that Calvin was a fallible man, now we're going to "stone" you.

Come on Lynn,people here had made it clear that Reformed did not wish to be called Calvinist and many said they had never read any of his sermons. Why are people upset when I bring up his character.I did not say anything about Calvinists so dont act like Im after Calvinists please. Ive said before,I have very close friends that are Calvinists and I think the world of them.