Lets Talk Free Choice

Issachar92 · May 17, 2017

Right, the thing is, if we cannot choose to do evil, or choose to do good as God asks us to do (I put before you blessing and a curse etc.) then who is responsible for our evil? Its God because He refuses to pardon some, and pardons others. So no matter how you slice and dice it, God is ultimately the reason people dont get saved, not their sinful nature or their evil.

And spare me the "God isnt obligated to save everyone" and "Justice is being done" etc. I've heard it all before. Its all very complex and complicated, when in reality you are a slave to whom ye obey.

valiant · May 17, 2017

Issachar92 said:

We can choose. But we cannot choose 'freely'. We choose according to our nature, and that is sinful.

I am pleased we have found someone who understands God thoroughly. But don't you think you're too good for this site?

Yes O wise one, but we are mere mortals. Whereas you are clearly sinless. And so young

Desertsrose · May 17, 2017

Depleted said:

Hi Lynn,

When I say free will, I'm of course talking about having the free will according to how I'm created to be.

God has allowed everyone to determine his own destiny. If I want to go my own way and live the way I want, God allows that.

He allows me to have my own free will to live as I want to just as He allowed Adam and Eve to choose which tree they would eat from.

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” Genesis 2:16, 17

God gave the command to Adam to not eat of the knowledge of the good and evil tree. Both Adam and Eve disobeyed of their own free will.

Gabriel2020 · May 17, 2017

God did not give Adam and Eve free will after they were created, Free will was part of their existence as individual living beings. every creature comes in to existence with free will.

trofimus · May 17, 2017

Gabriel2020 said:

I will say the opposite.

Only God has free will. All creatures are finite and so bounded by their environments. And also bounded by themselves.

Depleted · May 17, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Do you know why Joshua and his house chose the Lord that day? Because the Lord chose him 40 years earlier.

We are not denying choice. We embrace choice, because we remember what that choice was and what God wrought in our stead, despite that choice!!!

God took us to obedience school instead of waiting around to find out what our choice was. Sleeping and eating was never going to turn into "Oh boy! I just want to obey you all the time now" without God changing us to just that.

Issachar92 · May 17, 2017

valiant said:

Appereantly age hasnt given you any humility either, so I best not go your path or i'll end up like you. Take the what out of your own eye.

I never claimed to be sinless, and I was describing the system of theology where we cannot choose to obey and draw near to God, not what I believe.

And lastly, if we cannot choose 'freely' then you are blaming God for your short comings, excusing sin by playing on the "sin nature" card.

Magenta · May 17, 2017

vic1980 said:

The Apostles' creed is not a promotion of Roman Catholicism.

It is an early statement of Christian belief—a creed or "symbol". It is widely used by a number of Christian denominations for both liturgical and catechetical purposes, most visibly by liturgical Churches of Western tradition, including the Roman Catholic Church, Lutheranism and Anglicanism. It is also used by Presbyterians, Methodists and Congregationalists.

The Apostles' Creed is Trinitarian in structure with sections affirming belief in God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. The Apostles' Creed was based on Christian theological understanding of the Canonical gospels, the letters of the New Testament and to a lesser extent the Old Testament. Its basis appears to be the old Roman Creed known also as the Old Roman Symbol. Because of the early origin of its original form, it does not address some Christological issues defined in the Nicene and other Christian Creeds. It thus says nothing explicitly about the divinity of either Jesus or the Holy Spirit. This makes it acceptable to many Arians and Unitarians. Nor does it address many other theological questions which became objects of dispute centuries later. wiki

Meggido · May 17, 2017

Magenta said:

The Apostles' creed is not a promotion of Roman Catholicism.

It is an early statement of Christian belief—a creed or "symbol". It is widely used by a number of Christian denominations for both liturgical and catechetical purposes, most visibly by liturgical Churches of Western tradition, including the Roman Catholic Church, Lutheranism and Anglicanism. It is also used by Presbyterians, Methodists and Congregationalists.

The Apostles' Creed is Trinitarian in structure with sections affirming belief in God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. The Apostles' Creed was based on Christian theological understanding of the Canonical gospels, the letters of the New Testament and to a lesser extent the Old Testament. Its basis appears to be the old Roman Creed known also as the Old Roman Symbol. Because of the early origin of its original form, it does not address some Christological issues defined in the Nicene and other Christian Creeds. It thus says nothing explicitly about the divinity of either Jesus or the Holy Spirit. This makes it acceptable to many Arians and Unitarians. Nor does it address many other theological questions which became objects of dispute centuries later. wiki

I view them more of a positive confession of belief than a creed.

Depleted · May 17, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Yes, it is that! Timeline again!

Your dog did not choose obedience school. Your dog would never choose obedience school. And yet, once the dog gets "This pleases my master," then the dog "Comes" to please you.

Your choice. The dog's choice. Timeline salvation. Only after you save the dog by bringing her into your family, and then taking her to obedience school, does the dog then choose to follow your lead. (Or not. Because, let's face it. We may well know not to chew on the sofa, but sometimes we still choose to chew on the sofa. At least now, we know about that choice. Before we simply didn't get that was a choice.)

The only reason that leash stops the dog from going to obedience school is because you're stopping your own dog from going to obedience school. Why would you do that?

AND, in like kind, are you gathering up all the dogs within 5 miles to take them to obedience school too? Of course not! They aren't your dogs. You chose your dog. You did not choose those dogs. Is that unfair to the other dogs suddenly?

Works the same way with God chooses us.

trofimus · May 17, 2017

I realized one thing and I do not like it.

I have never heard any Calvinist saying "if we have a free will, I do not want such a God".

But I can hear it from the "free will" camp quite frequently. "If this or that... such a God is cruel, evil, lier blah blah blah"

Please, realize that you cannot attack God so easily, you can be wrong or your perception can be wrong. Do not say such things.

Depleted · May 17, 2017

Issachar92 said:

Shocker! I agree with you!

We do have choice to do good or evil. We choose evil. (John 3:19-20)

And bigger shocker, I don't believe "God isn't obligated to save everyone." Nor do I believe he does save everyone. He's not obligated to do anything except be who he is -- God in his holy, righteous allness.

And, I hope you don't faint, but I'm agreeing with you a third time. We really are slaves to whom we obey.

(Will someone keep checking on Issachar for me? That much agreeing between him and me may cause hyperventilation.

)

Gabriel2020 · May 17, 2017

That is what Adam and Eve chose to do, after their spiritual eyes were opened to who and what they were. They had a brain to think for themselves., and to choose what they wanted . that is why God had them in that state in the first place.

Meggido · May 17, 2017

Depleted said:

Lynn, not a bait, trap or anything, just an honest observation about you and others theology.

God desires a honest 2-way loving/sharing relationship with him. We see this illustrated all over the Bible as a marriage.

What you and others describe is what I see in arranged marriages in other cultures. 2 people forced to form a union, because 1 sovereign authority willed it to be so and elected you to be part of it. This is despite anything you may or may not think of the arrangement or the person involved. This is despite what you really want, you are part of an arrangement , predicated upon rules, regulations, traditions and so on.

Now there is somewhat a semblance of a loving relationship, children are born[fruit], dedication and perseverance are shown by those in the relationship, traditions are obeyed, including no disrespect, disobedient to the one in charge of the relationship. There is expression of love, but no intimacy, there is conversation, but no connection, there is facade, but no real freedom. At the end there was really never love or true relationship, because rules got in the way of really having true choice.

Are you in a loving 2 way relationship with Father or something else?

Grandpa · May 17, 2017

This is kind of a weird discussion. Because we can't know for certain either way.

But, the underlying concept here that is not being discussed is the thought that mankind is basically good. Those that believe in free will believe that people can make good choices out of their own innate goodness.

The Lord Jesus says there is only One that is Good and that is God.

So your free will, without the influence of God, can only choose what is not good, or evil continually.

In order to have chosen that Good Thing you must have been influenced by the One that is Good, God.

This is a sort of puzzle that some who have been Saved by the Power of God look into. I didn't start out thinking that I had no power to do good. Quite the opposite. Before I came to Christ I thought I was a pretty good person.

If you were saved by the Power of God and not your own power, then whose will has been done?
If you were given a gift that you could not perform yourself, whose will has been done?
If God is producing good fruit in your life that you can't do yourself, whose will is being done?

Are you choosing to do good or are you choosing to stop choosing, to ask for Gods Will to be done and not your own?

I know what Pride says. But what does the bible say?

Desertsrose · May 17, 2017

Depleted said:

Hi Lynn,

Kayla is giving a type of parable. Just as with the parables of Jesus, you can only take them so far. Kayla is only using her dogs example as a metaphor for the reasoning behind why God would call mankind to come to Him and then prevent Him from being able to do so.

Forget if the dog wanted to go to obedience school. It's n/a.

So if God tells us to come to Him and steps on the leash to prevent us from coming to Him, it makes no sense to His character, His will and His desire towards mankind.

Depleted · May 17, 2017

Desertsrose said:

I get that, but you're missing something. We weren't created. We were begatted. (I just like that word too much. Sure beats going through the whole birds and bees topic. lol)

Adam and Eve really were created. And in that, they really did have the ability to choose good between good and evil. Something happened though. They sinned.

And in that sin they were given "The Fall" as punishment.

-- They were created for a world without thorns, poisons plants, and weeds. The punishment included those plants too.

-- They were created in a world where there was no predator nor prey. The punishment included that too.

-- They were created to have children painlessly. The punishment changed that too.

-- They were created to be in full union with God right down to daily evening walks with him to talk stuff over. The punishment changed that too, because God cannot be in the presence of sin.

-- They were created to live. The punishment caused death.

That sin changed everything. And we were not created. We were born with the same failings as our lineage. They were created to know good. When they fell, they knew evil. And Man has been stuck choosing evil ever since.

What we were created to be was destroyed by eating that freaking peach! (Sorry. Apples wouldn't tempt me. A peach would. lol) Destroyed!

They chose that of their own free will, and yet free will was changed that day. Our will is now connected to our nature. And just like lions didn't eat lambs in the garden, but they do now, Adam and Eve didn't have a sin nature in that garden, but we all do now.

And God made a way to bring back who we were supposed to be. Jesus dying on that cross for all the whosoevers will believe. All the ones the Father wrought! (John 3:16-21.) God replaces that sin nature with his supernature. And after that we do choose to follow him. But only after that.

I'm not against choice. I just know, since Jesus out and out told us this, that our choice is always to hide in the darkness to keep our sin. We hated the light! Someone has to change that, and it wasn't us.

Grandpa · May 17, 2017

Maybe people can't do good. But they should be able to recognize what is good when they see it and then choose that good when they recognize it, right?

John 6:44 [FONT=&quot]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I guess not in the biblical sense.[/FONT]

Depleted · May 17, 2017

Gabriel2020 said:

Are you really saying God created all of the universe so man can choose?

If that is, indeed, what you're saying, then obvious second question, Doesn't that make man-choice the most important thing to God?

And, if perchance you aren't getting where I'm going with this, Did God's will suddenly become controlled by Man's will?

kaylagrl · May 17, 2017

samuel23 said:

Oddly enough she loves school and is better behaved there than home.Figure that out.

Lets Talk Free Choice

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