Not By Works

[PeterJens]

God choose us and made us willing and able to do those things.

This is an interesting line of thought. You could argue that all things are deemed and
created by God, so he intended evil, and sin, and makes things that are good and holy,
and everything is just puppets on a string.

What I see is God created a universe with a potential to change, adjust, grow and choose.
Like a farmer planting seeds, He is not dictating how things turn out but letting them
develop, and then He will judge, reject that which fails, and accepts that which is pleasing.

In the discussion with Job about justification, God does not say He made Job the way he
was, rather God was proud he was a righteous man on earth and set him up as an example
of what righteousness was.

So the choice God gives us is a real choice, balanced with real love.
Where in scripture other than John the Baptist, was a man born who did not choose his way?
Where is there a parable, where the participants are not choosing their responses?

Jesus promises us strength, guidance, growth, if we walk in His ways, call out to Him and
believe in Him, but this is an exercising of faith and love.

When I fell in love with my wife, it was a mixture of our desires and choices freely given.

God uses similar language with Him and His people. Why is this so hard to accept?
Is it such a poor self image, when your Lord has more confidence in you than you have
yourself?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I hope I can make a simple logical point.

The proposition is if you gain the magic wand of salvation by gaining faith in Christ,
which can never be lost, how does behaviour link in with this?

If ones theology does not answer how love and behaviour are linked, ie you cannot
claim to love or know God if you do not love your brother and sister in Christ, salvation
is not a magic wand, but imbedded in who we are in Christ and where our hearts are aimed.

Now the value of a forum like this is to explore such questions, rather than say that group
over there are evil, while we are the sound good people. And if you cannot answer such
basic questions, are you here for the right reasons?

In other words, he teaches salvation by behavior (works) which in reality is n different than the Jews. I am sure he has his man made laws which are not found in scripture, and like to always talk about grave sins such as murder and rape, and not the real sin issue.

oh wait, yep, I think we have all seen that

now i am, sure I am gonna be attacked as trying to say something he never said, so I will let scripture speak for me


If if it is of grace (Unmerited or unearned favor) it is not of works, otherwise grace stops being grace, if it is of works, it is not of grace otherwise work is no longer work.

in other words, it is of grace, never earned, because the one who trusts in god will NEVER meet the standard, and ALWAYS be in need of Gods maintaining grace to save him, or it is of works, which means salvation is not and can not be assured until we die, dependent on how well we behaved,


Which is basically what Peter just preached. We are saved by works, heaven being our motivation to obey, knowing if we fail, we will fail to get to heaven also.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's nice that you ask what JESUS said we should do.
Sometimes I wonder if it wasn't Paul on that cross.
If we all went to the words of Jesus, plain and simple, we'd all agree.

so Paul contradicts Jesus? Wow let's throw that bible out, it can not be trusted.


Paul and Jesus are in agreement, otherwise we have nothing

 

[Ariel82]

You could argue that all things are deemed and
created by God, so he intended evil, and sin, and makes things that are good and holy,
and everything is just puppets on a string

YOU could, but I don't because the Bible says God does NOT tempt people to sin or evil, ITS the lusts of our flesh that tempts us to sin.

.God DOES gives us a means to overcome any temptation in our lives.

The rest of your post is kind of lost since its starts with a false premise.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"Then how can you get saved and never loose"

By having a SAVING FAITH in JESUS and His ability to save people even from themselves. Faith that God will pull you out of the Fire because your foundation is in Christ and not some false idol or gospel.

Again the word you seek is "lose" not "loose".

well he does teach a loose grace which is full of works lol..

 

[Ariel82]

In the discussion with Job about justification, God does not say He made Job the way he
was, rather God was proud he was a righteous man on earth and set him up as an example
of what righteousness was.

The trials of Job showed that after removing the blessings of family and wealth, Job did not sin.

After removing his health and His wife telling him to curse God and die, Job did not sin.

However, after being verbally attacked and falsely accused of sin and being punished for made up sin by his Demonically inspired "friends", Job sinned. He defended his righteousness over God's providence and divine will and justice.

The young man rebuked Job and THEN God appeared.

Job repented. God said unless Job made intercession for the three Demonically influenced "friends" they would be lost.

Job is an example that God places hedges of protection around His children and our righteousness is because of His protection and the wisdom He taught us.,,, it is NOT because of our own innate "goodness" i

It is before God's power Satan and His minions flee, not ours.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

this thread is more hostile and silly than it is helpful at this point .... heres a question for the cake takers (works earn salvation)
AND those who believe they have fire insurance... a lets sin get out of hell free card (faith without works)


if it dont apply let it fly
this aint for true lovers of God


if you have faith
which creates works in you
someone spikes your water with drugs
leaves you open to demonic influence, so much so you fall into fornication with a vile woman or man who offends you to the point you push them...
they fall crack their head and die
you go to run but not being sober lose your footing fall and die too (crazy scenerio i know i know)

where do you go?

heaven or hell

The same place David (a murderer and adulterer) and Abraham (laughed at God, adulterer) Moses (murderer) will be,, with their saviorHats assuming they had saving faith and not wushu washy faith some in here want us to have

 

[PeterJens]

YOU could, but I don't because the Bible says God does NOT tempt people to sin or evil, ITS the lusts of our flesh that tempts us to sin.

.God DOES gives us a means to overcome any temptation in our lives.

The rest of your post is kind of lost since its starts with a false premise.

I am a little lost here. If I say we have real choice, then how we walk and react to
Christ is in our hands. That was my point.

It seemed that you were saying this was not the case.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

The same place David (a murderer and adulterer) and Abraham (laughed at God, adulterer) Moses (murderer) will be,, with their saviorHats assuming they had saving faith and not wushu washy faith some in here want us to have

did these men die in sin
or die in repentance


i dont accept these examples

 

[eternally-gratefull]

did these men die in sin
or die in repentance


i dont accept these examples

Two of these men were declared saved before they even commuted these sins. And one of them was seen by Peter James and john on the mount of transfiguration. So we know he is saved

So so if you will not accept biblical examples, what would you accept?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Two of these men were declared saved before they even commuted these sins. And one of them was seen by Peter James and john on the mount of transfiguration. So we know he is saved

So so if you will not accept biblical examples, what would you accept?

youre not answering my question

im talking about what they were before they died


i agree these men went to heaven

but youre being silly comparing these men to the one i listed


im not accepting unrelated examples

hahahaha

 

[PeterJens]

The trials of Job showed that after removing the blessings of family and wealth, Job did not sin.

After removing his health and His wife telling him to curse God and die, Job did not sin.

However, after being verbally attacked and falsely accused of sin and being punished for made up sin by his Demonically inspired "friends", Job sinned. He defended his righteousness over God's providence and divine will and justice.

The young man rebuked Job and THEN God appeared.

Job repented. God said unless Job made intercession for the three Demonically influenced "friends" they would be lost.

Job is an example that God places hedges of protection around His children and our righteousness is because of His protection and the wisdom He taught us.,,, it is NOT because of our own innate "goodness" i

It is before God's power Satan and His minions flee, not ours.

Amen. We seem to be agreeing. I am just pointing out we have a relationship with God which
we are responsible for.

With responsibility comes consequences.
Now the elect truly are elect, and God knows them. We are just called to love all
as a witness both of Gods work in our hearts and to those who rebel against Him.

My opposition against the extreme expression of grace that is being shared, is it negates
the walk. Rather than me attacking it, it actively attacks me and those who hold
my position. I have worked across the denominations, and nothing called "christian"
has been so aggressive since the charismatic renewal movement as this.

There is a refrain being used that you should not tell people what they teach and believe.
There are posts here saying I say this but believe that. Is this not totally hypocritical?

lol. I make no effort to hide my positions or faith, so why the need to continually
represent something else. Are they scared of something, or someone might get taken in
by the word of God? Who is the Holy Spirit and does He really bring teaching and reality?
Maybe their faith is not strong enough. Ironic that...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

youre not answering my question

im talking about what they were before they died


i agree these men went to heaven

but youre being silly comparing these men to the one i listed


im not accepting unrelated examples

hahahaha

I told you what they were, they were saved, long before they did those sins, and still saved today, because they believed god, and God accounted to them righteousness. Which is how ever person who will ever be saved got saved.

their status did not change when they sinned, just their relationship, they needed grace more, and this is what grew them to become them men they became

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen. We seem to be agreeing. I am just pointing out we have a relationship with God which
we are responsible for.

With responsibility comes consequences.
Now the elect truly are elect, and God knows them. We are just called to love all
as a witness both of Gods work in our hearts and to those who rebel against Him.

My opposition against the extreme expression of grace that is being shared, is it negates
the walk. Rather than me attacking it, it actively attacks me and those who hold
my position. I have worked across the denominations, and nothing called "christian"
has been so aggressive since the charismatic renewal movement as this.

There is a refrain being used that you should not tell people what they teach and believe.
There are posts here saying I say this but believe that. Is this not totally hypocritical?

lol. I make no effort to hide my positions or faith, so why the need to continually
represent something else. Are they scared of something, or someone might get taken in
by the word of God? Who is the Holy Spirit and does He really bring teaching and reality?
Maybe their faith is not strong enough. Ironic that...

no Peter it does not negate the walk, it empowers the walk.

Again, your slander based on your lack of understanding just truly amazes me..

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I told you what they were, they were saved, long before they did those sins, and still saved today, because they believed god, and God accounted to them righteousness. Which is how ever person who will ever be saved got saved.

their status did not change when they sinned, just their relationship, they needed grace more, and this is what grew them to become them men they became

i cant tell if you see the point or not

one last question

CAN you live in sin from now for every single day till you die suddenly
IF you are saved now

 

[PeterJens]

In other words, he teaches salvation by behavior (works) which in reality is n different than the Jews.

Amen. Israel were the promised nation to be the example to the world of how to
dwell with God, yet they failed at a national level, but succeeded at an individual level.

Jesus was the final fruit of Israel, its fulfillment, the end of the temple as we are now
the Holy Temple of the living God, with the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

If one rejects Israel as not Gods way then one rejects Christ also.
Israel in obedience were Gods people, into which we have been grafted.

Paul a pharisee did not disown his faith or position, in Jesus he found its real life.

The confession above declares the spirit behind the doctrines which overthrow the
work of God, His word and His intentions to replace them with a lawless version
which has no godliness or power.

 

[gb9]

no Peter it does not negate the walk, it empowers the walk.

Again, your slander based on your lack of understanding just truly amazes me..

I'm not sure if it's a lack of understanding, it seems to be a backward understanding. many churches and denominations teach that we have to be " good " people, so that God will accept us. this is FALSE. no one can be " good " enough to get into the Kingdom.

and people that have been taught " be good, get in ", have a hard time grasping the concept of grace salvation ( Titus 3 ). to them, it sounds like a free pass. ( but we know is not ).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i cant tell if you see the point or not

one last question

CAN you live in sin from now for every single day till you die suddenly
IF you are saved now

I know what point your trying to make. I am trying to get you to see a point, you want me to say they repented, and their salvation was as dependent on this, otherwise they would lose salvation. They repented the moment they were saved, they can not do again what they already did.

as for the question, john answered your question in his epistle.

1 john 3: 6. Whoever sins has never seen him nor known him,

1 john 3:9 whoever has been born of God does not sin, for his seed remains in him and he can. OT live in sin, because he has been born of God.

a child of God can not live in sin, it does not mean he will be perfect, he will fall from time to time, like Moses and David and Abraham, and the person in the example you gave, but they will not live in sin as the world.


So so the answer is no, you can't live in sin if you are truly a child of God, but remember, just because one claims to be a child does not mean they are

 

[Grace777x70]

I'm not sure if it's a lack of understanding, it seems to be a backward understanding. many churches and denominations teach that we have to be " good " people, so that God will accept us. this is FALSE. no one can be " good " enough to get into the Kingdom.

and people that have been taught " be good, get in ", have a hard time grasping the concept of grace salvation ( Titus 3 ). to them, it sounds like a free pass. ( but we know is not ).

And we do not water down the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ because some in their natural humanistic minds think it means we just go out and sin all we want.

Actually if we are never accused of saying that - then we have not preached the true gospel like Paul did. He had been accused of that very thing too and he refuted it 4 x times in his writings.

The gospel has been so perverted and watered down that it has been turned by religion into a behavior modification program of which "good works" is a part of this belief system and it actually denies the very grace of God needed in our lives to live from an "exchanged" life now. His life in us manifesting His fruit.

( notice I did NOT say believers don't do good works - they do - but it's a fruit of an exchanged life because we are a new creation in Christ now - not in the mimicking of a behavior in order to achieve or maintain righteousness or "goodness". )

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen. Israel were the promised nation to be the example to the world of how to
dwell with God, yet they failed at a national level, but succeeded at an individual level.

Jesus was the final fruit of Israel, its fulfillment, the end of the temple as we are now
the Holy Temple of the living God, with the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

If one rejects Israel as not Gods way then one rejects Christ also.
Israel in obedience were Gods people, into which we have been grafted.

Paul a pharisee did not disown his faith or position, in Jesus he found its real life.

The confession above declares the spirit behind the doctrines which overthrow the
work of God, His word and His intentions to replace them with a lawless version
which has no godliness or power.

and here he just agreed with me in my determination of what he believes, I will need to copy and paste these two posts in a file for the next time Peter Denys teaching salvation by works