Favorite Anti-Feminist Songs

[Galatea]

Seeing as how I am not a woman; seeing as how I am not particularly friendly towards women - I don't think I am entitled to have an opinion about what women do or what they think. *shrugs*

You are an American. A citizen of the great U. S. of A. You can have an opinion about anything you like. That is what is beautiful about our country. Everyone can think as they like and speak as they like. I dropped the ball on the 1984 study, I wish we would have all gotten to the end of the book and have been able to talk about these things.

Semantics are incredibly important, to my way of thinking. I think we got to the crux, in a 'round about way.

On the flip side, since you are an American, you are certainly entitled to have no opinion about a particular subject or a particular ideology. I happen to be passionately against abortion, but I realize there are many people who don't have this same level of feeling about it. And some people don't have an opinion about it, at all.

You are equal to women. If women can have opinions about men and how they think- well you can absolutely have opinions about women and how they think.

 

[Galatea]

This is a good one, in my opinion. My mother was into the Carpenters and we listened to a lot of their records when I was a kid in the 1980s. I can remember her singing this to us and with us, it is a good memory. [video=youtube;6inwzOooXRU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6inwzOooXRU[/video]

 

[Rachel20]

So what kind of propaganda are the NBER and OECD, government organizations with interest in economic research pushing?

It’s your prerogative to consider the media outlets (referring the research) as propaganda. They are not the ones doing the research I posted.

Did you read them in the first place?

I get your concerns that information can be skewed but discarding every research out there because you don’t like who’s funding them or you don’t like the results means there’s no point in giving out information.
If you are asking me to do that, thanks - I try to be careful and separate facts from opinions.

By job description, I was often a paper pusher. But the papers I pushed brought about required action. (Memos, bookkeeping books, client files for rehab/runaway shelter/group home work, legal briefs, grants, etc.) Warehousing reports so people can talk about stuff without doing anything, is wasted time, money, and space. When the chief goal of an organization is to have forums about..., it's really not worth paying attention to. And, yeah, Time and NY Times are simply propaganda vendors. Who are the ones paying them, and what do they want from them? (The customers aren't the readers.) Figure that out, and you start to see how the info is skewed and why.

 

[notmyown]

You have a valid point in the case of women who are not well off, that is the reason why many women who are not paid equally turn to class action law suits like the female employees in the Wal- Mart case.

As far as Jennifer Lawrence being underpaid, I think the biggest demographic for movie goers are young males. This is why, unfortunately, comic book movies an blow 'em ups predominate. Hollywood is a business and the actors who are paid more are the ones whose movies bring in the money.

dunno anything about Jennifer, but Meryl Streep makes a decent salary.

 

[notmyown]

Seeing as how I am not a woman; seeing as how I am not particularly friendly towards women - I don't think I am entitled to have an opinion about what women do or what they think. *shrugs*

You are an American. A citizen of the great U. S. of A. You can have an opinion about anything you like. That is what is beautiful about our country. Everyone can think as they like and speak as they like. I dropped the ball on the 1984 study, I wish we would have all gotten to the end of the book and have been able to talk about these things.

Semantics are incredibly important, to my way of thinking. I think we got to the crux, in a 'round about way.

On the flip side, since you are an American, you are certainly entitled to have no opinion about a particular subject or a particular ideology. I happen to be passionately against abortion, but I realize there are many people who don't have this same level of feeling about it. And some people don't have an opinion about it, at all.

You are equal to women. If women can have opinions about men and how they think- well you can absolutely have opinions about women and how they think.

we, the women, magnanimously grant you an opinion.

lol kinda, but it's also sad it's come to this.

 

[notmyown]

So what kind of propaganda are the NBER and OECD, government organizations with interest in economic research pushing?

It’s your prerogative to consider the media outlets (referring the research) as propaganda. They are not the ones doing the research I posted.

Did you read them in the first place?

I get your concerns that information can be skewed but discarding every research out there because you don’t like who’s funding them or you don’t like the results means there’s no point in giving out information.
If you are asking me to do that, thanks - I try to be careful and separate facts from opinions.

i know you do. ♥

try this: (it works for me when i'm confronted by a theological idea i've never heard before)

go to both sides. you may already do this, so forgive me if that's so.
but don't limit yourself to research done by those with whom you agree. see what the "other side" says as well.

i'm just trying to be helpful, in my clumsy way.

 

[Rachel20]

Which 'side' would the NBER and OECD happen to be on?

The research I posted was on hidden biases of teachers and gender gaps in science and math. Two different studies with links to each other based on their causations and origins.

If the research was conducting by a women's organization or a feminist, maybe we would discard it by saying that this was conducted by "THAT SIDE" and vice versa.

This is not theological, but scientific research on economic situations. Both can be wrong/right. I can accept if someone might have a differing side and a contradictory research - and then we can discuss it.

i know you do. ♥

try this: (it works for me when i'm confronted by a theological idea i've never heard before)

go to both sides. you may already do this, so forgive me if that's so.
but don't limit yourself to research done by those with whom you agree. see what the "other side" says as well.

i'm just trying to be helpful, in my clumsy way.

 

[Rachel20]

I would say nearly 100% men and women in the US believe women have the right to vote.

Anti-feminist:

 

[Rachel20]

@Depleted:

Scratch the "did you read them in the first place?"

It doesn't matter if you did - I get you had a few concerns you wanted to lay out. I hope I was/will be able to address those!

So what kind of propaganda are the NBER and OECD, government organizations with interest in economic research pushing?

It’s your prerogative to consider the media outlets (referring the research) as propaganda. They are not the ones doing the research I posted.

Did you read them in the first place?

I get your concerns that information can be skewed but discarding every research out there because you don’t like who’s funding them or you don’t like the results means there’s no point in giving out information.
If you are asking me to do that, thanks - I try to be careful and separate facts from opinions.

 

[RedeemedGift]

Ann Coulter in no way represents the majority view in America. She says outrageous things to get attention, I don't think she even believes half of what she says.

 

[notmyown]

Which 'side' would the NBER and OECD happen to be on?

The research I posted was on hidden biases of teachers and gender gaps in science and math. Two different studies with links to each other based on their causations and origins.

If the research was conducting by a women's organization or a feminist, maybe we would discard it by saying that this was conducted by "THAT SIDE" and vice versa.

This is not theological, but scientific research on economic situations. Both can be wrong/right. I can accept if someone might have a differing side and a contradictory research - and then we can discuss it.

i don't think i'm intelligent enough to engage in this type of discussion, to be honest.

did you see the little video Lynn posted?

i know from talking to my kids, though, that the NBER focuses on much more than women's issues, right?
"racial" divides are a big issue for them, too, is that right?
(i put that in quotes because i really dislike the term. to me, there's one race, the human race, and many people groups. racism as a term divides and i think actually accomplishes the opposite of its own attempt, making certain people groups "less than", if that makes sense. and that irritates me! lol)

i'm also not sure just how scientific ANY of this research is. i mean, we like the word, we think it means we've got everything pegged. ha!
not to diminish science itself. science comes from the Greek word for knowledge and all true knowledge comes from God, so how can that be a bad thing?

but we're fallen creatures. we all have agendas, and research can be skewed one way or another to support our convictions.

dumb personal story:
my son came home from a city across the river a few nights ago. he said he drove down Henry Street, probably the worst road in that city in terms of economy. he saw little kids running around outdoors at 10:30 pm on a school night, and the smell of marijuana permeated the air. people were stridently screaming at one another from their front porches.

his point was, how can a child raised in that atmosphere learn anything other than, we break rules and laws, we have no genuine love for our literal neighbors, and school is unimportant?
how does a child in that environment learn to survive, and what hope have they to integrate with the society at large?

these are the things that keep me up at night praying. these are the things that can go unnoticed and unaddressed.
it seems to me there are larger issues at hand, and it's disturbing.
i just want us, as women, to think about this, too.

i love you.

 

[proverbs35]

Not quite sure how either could rise to the degree of "someone worth respecting."

Exactly my point.

 

[proverbs35]

Not quite sure how either could rise to the degree of "someone worth respecting." I'd trust a five-timed-divorcee more than someone who accomplices her husband to commit rape multiple times. As much as I dearly love my husband, if I ever found out he raped someone, (and he's just not that kind of guy), I'd be helping the target get him in prison for the long haul. I certainly wouldn't be threatening the target to keep quiet, like she did.

Speculation! Bill Clinton has been ACCUSED of rape. However, he has not confessed to rape, and he has not been convicted of rape.

Therefore, I'm going to refrain from calling Bill Clinton a rapist (and Hilary his accomplice to rape) because I wasn't present when these alleged rapes occurred, and I have absolutely no idea who is telling the truth.

Like Bill Clinton, Trump has also been accused of rape, and I am going to refrain from calling him a rapist for the exact same reason. I wasn't there, and I have absolutely no idea who is telling the truth.

After all, Potiphar's wife accused an innocent man, Joseph, of rape. The allegation didn't equal truth.

So, while I'm not going to label either man a rapist (or Hilary an accomplice to rape), I do know that both Bill Clinton & Trump have confessed to adultery, and adultery is forgivable, but it certainly ain't honorable. IMO, they both lose considerable respect points for being bonafide adulters.

 

[Rachel20]

Hi Ellie, firstly don’t put yourself down. We can all have a discussion and see where we reach with an open mind.

I did see the video that Depleted put up. What I brought up was not gender wage gaps – but hidden biases with teachers leading to poor representation of women in STEM fields.
According to that video, they acknowledged women were underrepresented in five of the top paying majors except one. (they were STEM fields)

The research that I brought up brings one of the causations as hidden biases in societies (teachers) that kept girls from achieving and doing as well as boys in the USA compared to 65 countries across the world.

These are the organizations that provided the research for the data. Since you are questioning the motives, it is up to you to decide whether you want to believe it or not.
The NBER does research on inequality but not it is just not about racial divides.
According to their programs these are the 20 areas of research they focus on. [source: http://www.nber.org/programs/program_desc.html]

Aging, Asset Pricing, Children, Corporate Finance, Development of the American Economy, Economics of Education, Economic Fluctuations and Growth, Energy and the Environment, Health Care, Health Economics, Industrial Organization, International Finance and Macroeconomics, International Trade and Investment, Labor Studies, Law and Economics, Monetary Economics, Political Economy, Productivity, and Public Economics

I do not understand in clear terms what your exact opposition is to their research on racial divides. The truth is it exists, whether we like it or not.

The problem is society has made it such that some people of different races have a higher propensity to be “less than”.
As you might know, institutionalized poverty is a huge issue not just in the USA but also across the world. This is propagated through socio-economic inequalities exacerbated by race issues.

Let’s not even bring the psychological impact it has on different people. How would these come out to light if people do not research about it?
We need the data to substantiate why policies etc. should change. Otherwise everything would be according to human opinions and as you said– we are fallen creatures,

I do want to add the NBER is the largest economic research organization in the USA giving dates for recessions with highly respected economists on their council.

Meanwhile the OECD is inter-governmental focusing on economic progress and world trade.

I would like to think that we all have a deep interest in fixing the issues of society. I am glad you have a deep interest in children and you have a heart for the issues that you see them go through.

However, the question comes about – how do we fix it? Does one issue negate another?
Can we have multiple interests?

I am quoting James Emman Kwegyir Aggrey, who said this –

“If you educate a man you simply educate an individual, but if you educate a woman, you educate a whole nation.”

The problems that women go through are very real ones. So do men. This isn’t about superiority or crushing another gender.

It matters if you stand up for justice, foster equality and encourage both young men and women to the same heights. It matters if you have hidden biases but do your best to overcome them; if you would stand up to be a voice for the benefit of both men and women.

That might seem like activism but that is part of the Christian walk. What does God require of us? Micah 6:8 - to do justice and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with God.


Much love to you too

Rachel

i don't think i'm intelligent enough to engage in this type of discussion, to be honest.

did you see the little video Lynn posted?

i know from talking to my kids, though, that the NBER focuses on much more than women's issues, right?
"racial" divides are a big issue for them, too, is that right?
(i put that in quotes because i really dislike the term. to me, there's one race, the human race, and many people groups. racism as a term divides and i think actually accomplishes the opposite of its own attempt, making certain people groups "less than", if that makes sense. and that irritates me! lol)

i'm also not sure just how scientific ANY of this research is. i mean, we like the word, we think it means we've got everything pegged. ha!
not to diminish science itself. science comes from the Greek word for knowledge and all true knowledge comes from God, so how can that be a bad thing?

but we're fallen creatures. we all have agendas, and research can be skewed one way or another to support our convictions.

dumb personal story:
my son came home from a city across the river a few nights ago. he said he drove down Henry Street, probably the worst road in that city in terms of economy. he saw little kids running around outdoors at 10:30 pm on a school night, and the smell of marijuana permeated the air. people were stridently screaming at one another from their front porches.

his point was, how can a child raised in that atmosphere learn anything other than, we break rules and laws, we have no genuine love for our literal neighbors, and school is unimportant?
how does a child in that environment learn to survive, and what hope have they to integrate with the society at large?

these are the things that keep me up at night praying. these are the things that can go unnoticed and unaddressed.
it seems to me there are larger issues at hand, and it's disturbing.
i just want us, as women, to think about this, too.

i love you.

 

[Galatea]

Anti-feminist:

I'd have to do some research to see if Coulter said this, or if she did, what the context of her quote was. Coulter has a snide, sarcastic sense of humor. Quite brilliant, but quite caustic. I can imagine her saying this in a sarcastic way. Thanks for posting, it has piqued my interest, and now I want to find out the context of the quote.

 

[notmyown]

Hi Ellie, firstly don’t put yourself down. We can all have a discussion and see where we reach with an open mind.

I did see the video that Depleted put up. What I brought up was not gender wage gaps – but hidden biases with teachers leading to poor representation of women in STEM fields.
According to that video, they acknowledged women were underrepresented in five of the top paying majors except one. (they were STEM fields)

The research that I brought up brings one of the causations as hidden biases in societies (teachers) that kept girls from achieving and doing as well as boys in the USA compared to 65 countries across the world.

These are the organizations that provided the research for the data. Since you are questioning the motives, it is up to you to decide whether you want to believe it or not.
The NBER does research on inequality but not it is just not about racial divides.
According to their programs these are the 20 areas of research they focus on. [source: http://www.nber.org/programs/program_desc.html]

Aging, Asset Pricing, Children, Corporate Finance, Development of the American Economy, Economics of Education, Economic Fluctuations and Growth, Energy and the Environment, Health Care, Health Economics, Industrial Organization, International Finance and Macroeconomics, International Trade and Investment, Labor Studies, Law and Economics, Monetary Economics, Political Economy, Productivity, and Public Economics

I do not understand in clear terms what your exact opposition is to their research on racial divides. The truth is it exists, whether we like it or not.

The problem is society has made it such that some people of different races have a higher propensity to be “less than”.
As you might know, institutionalized poverty is a huge issue not just in the USA but also across the world. This is propagated through socio-economic inequalities exacerbated by race issues.

Let’s not even bring the psychological impact it has on different people. How would these come out to light if people do not research about it?
We need the data to substantiate why policies etc. should change. Otherwise everything would be according to human opinions and as you said– we are fallen creatures,

I do want to add the NBER is the largest economic research organization in the USA giving dates for recessions with highly respected economists on their council.

Meanwhile the OECD is inter-governmental focusing on economic progress and world trade.

I would like to think that we all have a deep interest in fixing the issues of society. I am glad you have a deep interest in children and you have a heart for the issues that you see them go through.

However, the question comes about – how do we fix it? Does one issue negate another?
Can we have multiple interests?

I am quoting James Emman Kwegyir Aggrey, who said this –

“If you educate a man you simply educate an individual, but if you educate a woman, you educate a whole nation.”

The problems that women go through are very real ones. So do men. This isn’t about superiority or crushing another gender.

It matters if you stand up for justice, foster equality and encourage both young men and women to the same heights. It matters if you have hidden biases but do your best to overcome them; if you would stand up to be a voice for the benefit of both men and women.

That might seem like activism but that is part of the Christian walk. What does God require of us? Micah 6:8 - to do justice and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with God.


Much love to you too

Rachel

oh, i forgot you're talking STEM careers and not wage gap.
(see what i mean? lol)

i'm not opposed to research on racial divides (any more than other research), it's the word race. people, on the outside, appear different and that's legit. we have different cultures and that's legit, too. but to say different races devolves to some people being perceived as more valuable than others, and that. is not. legit. that's what i dislike so vehemently. and yet, it's probably not a word problem; it's a sin problem.

private research institutions have a right to do with their funding as they wish, of course. i can't help thinking, though,

what if that money, and particularly money taken from taxpayers and given to government research institutions, were used to actually DO something for people? my son didn't need scads of money to drive down Henry Street. he made observations and we can use them; anyone could! i'm a literacy nut (yes, in spite of my apparent inability to capitalize ) so i like to volunteer in helping people learn to read. it surprises me the number of adults who need help. you would be great tutoring people of all ages in math.

there's a hidden bias in the Aggrey quote, if i'm understanding it correctly. and i think you will agree fostering equality doesn't mean men and women, boys and girls, have to be the same and do the same. their opportunities should be the same, i agree.
i tried to give the same opportunities to all my children, yet my son and just one daughter were interested in a career in math. and that should also be okay since it's what their natural talent and desire led to.
my son-in-law and his brothers are all engineers, like their dad. his sisters went into medicine like their mom. i know/knew their parents (one is deceased) and they gave them the same opportunities and let the kids follow their own path. this is what we want, isn't it? what i mean is, there don't necessarily have to be equal numbers of both genders in the same jobs for things to be equal. i'm sure my nephew the RN is great at the job.

idk, these are complicated issues. we're not going to "fix" societal problems going about it in a secular way. only the grace of God in the Gospel can do that. that's another place we, as Christians, are going about this in the wrong way, in my opinion.

but i do so appreciate you taking time to help me understand your point of view.

 

[Galatea]

I am glad it is established that feminism is not against women staying at home and being traditional.

That is ignorance on the topic which is what many of the other women on the thread have addressed.

Be it in India or the USA, the truth is society has not reached “the perfect” stage yet.
Taking an example right from this thread, we have societal conditioning with things like “men are fixers, women are verbal” and how women are better suited for nurturing professions. (this is nothing against the posters who brought it up)

However, is this even true? There is no conclusive evidence for either but at the end of the day, it is just opinions.

I wonder what the true extent of impact a teacher may have on female students with such ideas and philosophies ingrained in herself, even though these are never verbally communicated.

PS - Bingo! I did come across a few studies on the harmful effects of teacher's hidden biases. Clearly, they have a huge impact.

[The US has one of the largest gender gaps in math and science performance. This is not true in the rest of the world. Girls outperformed boys in more countries in a science test given to 15-year-old students in 65 countries — but in the United States, boys led the girls.]

New Reports Reveal How Teachers’ Hidden Biases Are Hurting Our Girls | Time.com

The NBER Paper : On The Origins of Gender Human Capital Gaps: Short and Long Term Consequences of Teachers' Stereotypical Biases

Nice infographic: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...e-exam-but-not-in-the-united-states.html?_r=0

I don't want to be combative, so will try to take a page out of Ellie's book and be a little more gracious than I have been up to this point. I read the Times article, glanced at the NBER paper (must confess, I did not read the whole) and read the blurb under the graphic from the NY Times piece.

I will say that you are absolutely correct. Teachers do have all sorts of biases. And they can affect instruction. But, as a veteran teacher (I like to say a combat veteran) of nine years, I have an opinion about the reason for boy centered instruction. I have taught students in first, fourth, sixth, seventh, and eighth grades. I have preteaching experience in Kindergarten and fifth grades.

As a practitioner, the main reason why teachers tend to be boy centered is because boys misbehave more. This is my observation. I know that if girls (not all, but most) are uninterested in the lesson- then girls won't disrupt. If boys are uninterested in the lesson- God help us all. It isn't pretty. I sort of hate to admit it, but I think most teachers (female teachers especially) have to maintain control. That is priority number one. If Johnny is a cut-up, try to get Johnny interested. I know when choosing books to read as a class novel study we sometimes wonder "Will boys pay attention to this?" If it is too girly, forget about it! Boys are also more often formally disciplined. The battle cry is "how do we keep boys from being suspended and missing school?" We have many data analysis sessions, and as a science teacher- I can tell you that the demographic that consistently underperforms on standardized and even classroom tests, are not girls. The question has long been, how can we raise boys' scores?

Many times in education, there is a dichotomy- the "ideal" versus the "real". Ideally, all students would come to school well behaved and ready to learn, and it would look like Beaver Cleaver's class circa 1956. Every student would get the same amount of attention. The teacher would praise all equally, every student would get his say. But, many times, we end up having to teach students how to function in society rather than an actual curriculum. Boys are more likely to misbehave, so boys get more attention. It is unfortunate- but true.

I will say, that gifted girls always rise to the top- the cream always does. The valedictorian and co-salutatorians at our local high school are all girls this year. One is going into civil engineering, one into nursing, and one into law. I will say that the student I referenced in an earlier post, when I saw her potential and gifts and heard her interest, I encouraged her mother to try and enroll her daughter into the prestigious math and science school when she reached the tenth grade.

As far as girls in other countries going into STEM professions more than girls in the West- the NY Times article was pretty clear about why this might be. In countries like Saudi Arabia, higher education is the only way to freedom. What I mean is this, a girl who is academically gifted in the US doesn't have to go into a profession if she'd rather be a homemaker. She can get a doctoral degree and stay home if she likes and be absolutely liberated. Or she can work part time, or work full time. Whatever it is she decides she'd rather do (I would qualify, and say whatever she and her HUSBAND decide to do if she is married). This may not be true for a girl in Saudi Arabia. If she is brilliant, she might HAVE to go into a profession, in order to obtain some freedom. It may be a simple case of girls in the West having more options.

 

[Rachel20]

@Galatea:

Thank you, I appreciate the post and the time you took to explain all this from your perspective, a teacher's, on this scenario. It does give me some food for thought.

That was also an interesting observation on why these differences might happen in the USA compared to other countries.

I am glad you encouraged your student to try her hand at a STEM field. It is definitely a noble cause to be a teacher and have so much impact on the future of society!

I wish you the best in that endeavor. God bless and have a nice day!

 

[Galatea]

@Galatea:

Thank you, I appreciate the post and the time you took to explain all this from your perspective, a teacher's, on this scenario. It does give me some food for thought.

That was also an interesting observation on why these differences might happen in the USA compared to other countries.

I am glad you encouraged your student to try her hand at a STEM field. It is definitely a noble cause to be a teacher and have so much impact on the future of society!

I wish you the best in that endeavor. God bless and have a nice day!

Thank you for your gracious reply. I do not think we have to be disagreeable in order to disagree. I am afraid I have been less than a lady in some of my posts, so ask yours and Laura Charlotte's forgiveness if I impugned either of you personally in any way. I hope you have a very good day, as well. I can not take too much credit for encouraging her, as she was one of those dream students who come around very rarely. It is much more difficult to encourage reluctant learners.

God bless you, as well.

 

[zeroturbulence]

This is a good one, in my opinion. My mother was into the Carpenters and we listened to a lot of their records when I was a kid in the 1980s. I can remember her singing this to us and with us, it is a good memory. [video=youtube;6inwzOooXRU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6inwzOooXRU[/video]

I was actually thinking of posting that song but felt it was more of a legit love song... and I love The Carpenters! (always have )